Love and compassion

romansh · June 11

Oh! And how did the Jewish peoples do regarding slavery?

Influence of European Laws: As European countries began to abolish slavery, Jewish communities in these regions also ceased any remaining practices of slavery. By the 18th and 19th centuries, as abolitionist movements gained strength, Jews in Europe and the Americas aligned with these humanitarian trends.

Modern Period

Abolition Movements and Modern States: In the modern period, especially from the 19th century onward, Jewish communities were part of broader societal shifts towards the abolition of slavery. Influential Jewish figures often supported abolitionist movements.
State of Israel: Upon the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, the new nation adopted democratic principles and human rights laws, explicitly prohibiting slavery and human trafficking. The Israeli legal framework continues to enforce these prohibitions strictly.

romansh · June 11

10 hours ago, toty said:

Such sick fantasies only exist in your mind

As opposed to beliefs in jinns, angels, shayatin, hūrīs, dabbat al-ard, Yajuj and Majuj, and nevermind the spirits of the dead. It is difficult to believe you are a rational being of the 21st century.

10 hours ago, toty said:

Be careful, readers, this person is a paid mercenary in the church

Which church is this @toty? You don't have a bloody clue what you are talking about.

10 hours ago, toty said:

He has a fabricated agenda to distort the image of Islam and incite hatred
He has no choice but to waste time against Islam

Incite hatred? That is laughable. All Paul is doing is asking you a simple question can terrorists who think of themselves as Muslims partake in Islamic rites? If you did not post so much spam, I am sure Paul would not be wasting his time on your spam.

10 hours ago, toty said:

But many of you work in Islamic countries, and many Muslims work in Western countries, and people live in peace and harmony

And yet many are also aware of the excesses carried out by Muslims, against one another, kaffirs and in particular apostates ... in the name of Islam.

10 hours ago, toty said:

As I told before, a Muslim cannot kill simply for drawing an offensive picture or a word against Islam from a cleric

And yet they do, in the name of Islam.

10 hours ago, toty said:

Don't care about this crazy liar

Are you looking in the mirror again?

romansh · June 11

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'”

PaulS · June 12

Not sure you're going to get very far with just facts @romansh. We both know how apologists, Christian & Muslim, will twist their brains to settle the cognitive dissonance that arises when facts don't align with dogma.

Do you happen to have a few dozen YouTube videos of 'authoritative' preachers, and even dodgy testimonials, that suit your narrative?

romansh · June 12

5 hours ago, PaulS said:

Do you happen to have a few dozen YouTube videos of 'authoritative' preachers

A dozen no. But I did come across this one yesterday, but I thought I had posted enough.
Zakir Naik, no less.

At the 8 min mark, there was a flurry of people watching. They provided a transcript.

7:58 as far as the death penalty is concerned
8:00 that only that person

8:02 after converting if he propagates his
8:04 new faith

8:05 and speaks against Islam then the
8:07 penalty of that is there

To be fair, he is not advocating for a death penalty per se, he seems to be saying just bow to the law of the land. On the other hand just like the Qur'an he does not come out a condemn the death penalty either. Interestingly it compares apostasy to treason laws, say divulging state secrets to the enemy.

But here is a little more extreme, no doubt Scottish Muslim

romansh · June 12

On 5/8/2024 at 1:31 PM, romansh said:

Naik being loving and compassionate:

Zakir Naik: "If the person who becomes a non-Muslim propagates his faith and speaks against Islam [where] there is Islamic rule, then the person is to be put to death."^[151]

On 5/9/2024 at 6:04 AM, toty said:

Dr Zakir Naik does not say this nonsense

transcript:

Quote

6:33 [if] the person who reverts who was a
6:37 Muslim then converts to and becomes a
6:40 non-muslim and propagates his faith and
6:42 speaks against Islam and if it's Islamic
6:45 rule then the person's will be put to
6:47 death

Seem familiar? ... can't be our Zakir ... must be a fake.

PaulS · June 12

7 hours ago, romansh said:

In his book titled The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam, al-Qaradawi wrote, "Islam does not prohibit Muslims to be kind and generous to peoples of other religions, even if they are idolaters and polytheists, ... it looks upon the People of the Book, that is, Jews and Christians, with special regard, whether they reside in a Muslim society or outside it. The Qur'an never addresses them without saying, 'O People of the Book' or 'O You who have been given the Book', indicating that they were originally people of a revealed religion. For this reason there exists a relationship of mercy and spiritual kinship between them and the Muslims.

Yeah - I'm feelin' the love from @Toty

PaulS · June 12

6 hours ago, romansh said:

Seem familiar? ... can't be our Zakir ... must be a fake.

Maybe he was just having a bad day and has changed his views since then. Cognitive dissonance must be doing overtime.

toty · June 13

Such sick fantasies only exist in your mind

Be careful, readers, this person is a paid mercenary in the church

He has a fabricated agenda to distort the image of Islam and incite hatred

He has no choice but to waste time against Islam

But many of you work in Islamic countries, and many Muslims work in Western countries, and people live in peace and harmony

As I told before, a Muslim cannot kill simply for drawing an offensive picture or a word against Islam from a cleric

The infidels tried to kill the Prophet Muhammad more than once and he pardoned the people

Therefore, people embrace Islam after studying it in specialized Islamic centers
Don't care about this crazy liar

2-

At least the Prophet Muhammad gradually eliminated slavery during his reign

Why did Christ, who you claim is your God, not eliminate slavery?

It is also important to point out that slavery in the Middle East had reached its last stage and was about to end and disappear, and the Middle East had not witnessed an increase in slavery rates. Legislation regarding slavery was based on moral principles conflicting with economic benefit, and it continued to decline steadily.

While Europe witnessed a rise in slavery during the colonial era, the Middle East witnessed a decline in slavery rates, and Arab countries preceded other European countries in prohibiting slavery, such as Tunisia, which banned slavery in 1837, ten years before the French did so. The question that arises here is, as long as the West abandons religious moral references and makes economic interest the reference for right and wrong, what makes us certain that the West will not return to practicing slavery, or worse, if economic benefit reappears?

The Most Convincing Factor for Non Muslims to Accept Islam – Dr Zakir Naik

Prophet Muhammad’s (ﷺ) Treatment of Non Muslims - Mufti Menk

The Role of Muslims in A Non-Muslim Society - Dr. Zakir Naik

Edited June 13 by toty

romansh · June 13

15 hours ago, toty said:

Such sick fantasies only exist in your mind

I am not sure what sick fantasies you are referring to. Your writing is not always clear. Partly because you don't answer questions to clarify your points of view. But maybe not a sick fantasy, a belief in jinns, angels, shayatin, hūrīs, dabbat al-ard, Yajuj and Majuj, and never mind the spirits of the dead is a sign of a mental health issue.

15 hours ago, toty said:

Be careful, readers, this person is a paid mercenary in the church

Yes readers be careful of people who express opinions contrary to your own. It is sound advice when you can't refute an opinion or a bit of evidence (or even a lot), start making up stories about paid mercenaries.

15 hours ago, toty said:

He has no choice but to waste time against Islam

Well, @toty may have a point here, but because he knows nothing about me, he won't get the inside joke here.

15 hours ago, toty said:

But many of you work in Islamic countries, and many Muslims work in Western countries, and people live in peace and harmony

Yes, people all over the world live in peace and harmony. Some do not. And some of these people claim to be Muslims.

15 hours ago, toty said:

a Muslim cannot kill simply for drawing an offensive picture or a word against Islam from a cleric

And yet some who claim to be Muslim do kill because of allegedly offensive pictures. Why are you not preaching to them toty?

15 hours ago, toty said:

Don't care about this crazy liar

I will accept the criticism of lazy all day. As for liar, I will let people judge for themselves.

PaulS · June 13

17 hours ago, toty said:

Such sick fantasies only exist in your mind.

It would seem they also appear in Zakir Naik's mind - according to his actual speeches also - you just don't seem to quote those ones.

17 hours ago, toty said:

But many of you work in Islamic countries, and many Muslims work in Western countries, and people live in peace and harmony

Of course it could be argued that there are actually more Christian countries that enjoy peace and harmony more so than many Muslim countries. The bitter feud between Sunni & Shia sects of Islam has led to extreme violence in many Muslim countries. But of course, there is also history of Christian violence on occasions also.

17 hours ago, toty said:

As I told before, a Muslim cannot kill simply for drawing an offensive picture or a word against Islam from a cleric.

Perhaps you could get that message through to the Muslims that do believe in killing people simply because they have drawn an offensive picture or word against Islam. Those Muslims DO exist. How are YOU trying to change that? How is Islam addressing it?

17 hours ago, toty said:

At least the Prophet Muhammad gradually eliminated slavery during his reign

Again, kudo's to the Prophet for moving towards a more compassionate framework for slavery, albeit not eliminating it entirely, immediately. As I said, clearly Allah & the Prophet did not condemn or make slavery stop immediately - which I think everyone would agree, would have been a better outcome for slaves.

17 hours ago, toty said:

Why did Christ, who you claim is your God, not eliminate slavery?

Because Christ was a man, and clearly there is no God, Allah included, with the physical power to put an immediate end to slavery. That's why slavery still exists in all sorts of countries around the world today. There are many humans who do their best to stop it - both religious and secular, but as evidenced, there is NO God that has ever put a stop to it.

17 hours ago, toty said:

It is also important to point out that slavery in the Middle East had reached its last stage and was about to end and disappear, and the Middle East had not witnessed an increase in slavery rates. Legislation regarding slavery was based on moral principles conflicting with economic benefit, and it continued to decline steadily.

Yes, a good thing, but this is called 'apologetics' - you are just making excuses to try and distract from the failings of the Prophet, Allah or God to intervene and condemn or stop slavery. That is just reality my friend.

romansh · June 14

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

<snip>

Like!!!!

toty · June 15

The Bible lies a lot about Jesus because the four scribes and Paul falsified many facts

Allah did not help followers of previous messengers establish religion in vast part of the world. Allah mentions in Quran that He sent messengers but religious people distorted religion and created sects. (Quran 2:213) Jews made the religion a family business and did not spread it among others. After Jesus, peace be upon him, it took followers of Jesus several decades to compile Bible. The last manuscript of Bible is 300 years after Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. Christianity got power when Roman empire embraced it, several hundred years after Jesus. However, Bible was not translated into a popular language until 1536. Until then the Church controlled learning and study of the Bible. The phase of 1500 years when Europe did not progress scientifically and when Church partnered with political class to establish influence is known as dark ages in the history of Europe.

But the Qur’an has been proven by scholars to be true scientifically, morally and historicallyThe Qur’an is the word of God

God promised in the Quran to protect and preserve the Quran.

[Quran 15:9] Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it.

Because you have an original source for the Qur’an, which is the Arabic language in which the Qur’an was revealed, even if there is an error in one of the translations to interpret the meanings of the Qur’an.

You have an original source to correct the translation

Unlike Christians, they do not understand their Bible and interpret it according to their whims

I always say you should learn about Islam from specialized Islamic centers

Christ spoke the Aramaic language

However, you will not find the original source of the Bible as a reference for Christians in the Aramaic language, but only translations in different languages such as Greek and other languages. You do not have a reliable and original source to correct the mistakes of the writers and the incorrect translation.

The fact is there are 40,000 Christian sects. We can fill a football stadium with Christians, every one of them can have different beliefs. Every one of them calling themselves Christian. Every one of them having Different beliefs then you.

Can you not wrap your head around how insane this is?

How anyone can argue the Bible is not changed today is amazing honestly. Seriously, they literally continue to change it even today!

Allah undertook to preserve the Quran because people of previous scriptures failed to uphold God's covenant of revealing God's word to humankind. People of previous scriptures also blended human contributions to the same volume of the Divine text.

If the Qur’an was as Islam haters and church mercenaries say, why would thousands embrace Islam

كلام الله، هل هو القرآن أم الإنجيل؟|The Qur'an Or The Bible, Which Is God's Word

القرآن يذهل العالم ويكشف 10 أسرار تاريخية عن الفراعنة ومصر القديمة لم تُكتشف إلا حديثاً

?

romansh · June 15

6 hours ago, toty said:

But the Qur’an has been proven by scholars to be true scientifically

For your edification and reading pleasure

15 hours ago, toty said:

After Jesus, peace be upon him, it took followers of Jesus several decades to compile Bible. The last manuscript of Bible is 300 years after Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. Christianity got power when Roman empire embraced it, several hundred years after Jesus. However, Bible was not translated into a popular language until 1536. Until then the Church controlled learning and study of the Bible. The phase of 1500 years when Europe did not progress scientifically and when Church partnered with political class to establish influence is known as dark ages in the history of Europe.

Yes, much of this is true, although loosely focussing on the 'Bible' as Christianity presents it totally overlooks the writings of Judaism, or the 'Old Testament' as Christians use. I think many of these writings date back up to 2500 years to more than 500 BCE.

15 hours ago, toty said:

But the Qur’an has been proven by scholars to be true scientifically, morally and historicallyThe Qur’an is the word of God

Completely and utterly false. Only those so thoroughly convinced by religious dogma would make such claims.

15 hours ago, toty said:

Unlike Christians, they do not understand their Bible and interpret it according to their whim

So both Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims correctly interpret the Quran?

15 hours ago, toty said:

Because you have an original source for the Qur’an...

We actually do not have an original Quran (other than a proposed two pieces of parchment). Any original has been lost to history.

Islam is certainly not without its confusion or interpretation about what it means to be a 'proper' Muslim:

romansh · June 16

Morality?

PaulS · June 16

4 hours ago, romansh said:

Morality?

The ironic thing here about @toty / @akay reliance on the Quran, is that most of Islam's 'dogma' and 'beliefs' actually comes from the Hadiths! All of these Hadiths were written by people OTHER than Mohamad, and are simply THEIR interpretations of what they think Mohamad meant. But as we have seen in Christianity, dogma can become the religion, as it can (and does for the most part) for Islam!

romansh · June 16

16 minutes ago, PaulS said:

The ironic thing here about @toty / @akay reliance on the Quran, is that most of Islam's 'dogma' and 'beliefs' actually comes from the Hadiths! All of these Hadiths were written by people OTHER than Mohamad, and are simply THEIR interpretations of what they think Mohamad meant. But as we have seen in Christianity, dogma can become the religion, as it can (and does for the most part) for Islam!

Yeah, we can have all sorts of fun trying to sort out the different Qur'ans, Hadiths, Gospels, Torah, etc, also we can look at Buddhist texts, Hindu, Sikh, Tao, Confucius and so on.

Or we can take a look around us now, and with our current understanding work out a path for ourselves.

For some reason, the latter seems like even more fun.

PaulS · June 16

34 minutes ago, romansh said:

Yeah, we can have all sorts of fun trying to sort out the different Qur'ans, Hadiths, Gospels, Torah, etc, also we can look at Buddhist texts, Hindu, Sikh, Tao, Confucius and so on.

Or we can take a look around us now, and with our current understanding work out a path for ourselves.

For some reason, the latter seems like even more fun.

I like the history of the ancients to see how past societies functioned and the things that moved the human species forward, for better or for worse. Perhaps even some good ideas/inspiration come from these texts - certainly Jesus' "Love one another" phrase is one that has at the every least, promoted peaceful thoughts, albeit the practice of these thoughts is a different story!

But to me, these writings are simply 'reference' materials. Not dictated words from some supernatural being removed from human society, and certainly not writings that should bind us to ancient ways of thinking.

romansh · June 17

Again ... history is part of our understanding. So if we don't want to repeat certain events then it is a place to go to understand the conditions that lead to those events.

The concept "to love one another", while nice on the surface and perhaps an interesting rule of thumb; does it work?

What does reality have to say about it?

Free oxytocin injections for everyone! (Not oxycontin )

PaulS · June 17

3 minutes ago, romansh said:

Again ... history is part of our understanding. So if we don't want to repeat certain events then it is a place to go to understand the conditions that lead to those events.

The concept "to love one another", while nice on the surface and perhaps an interesting rule of thumb; does it work?

What does reality have to say about it?

Free oxytocin injections for everyone! (Not oxycontin )

Well I think as a 'concept' it is something of value to always try to work toward. But of course, as we see in real life, how it is applied comes in all sorts of forms. I'm happy thinking of it in the lowest of aims - that is, I think we will live in a more peaceful world if we all strive to love one another with more compassion, empathy, and acceptance that we don't always understand the other.

romansh · June 17

Here's a book I read recently:
The Dark Sides of Empathy: Breithaupt, Fritz, Hamilton, Andrew B. B.: 9781501721649: Amazon.com: Books
The long and short of it is there are downsides to things like empathy.

I read somewhere else that empathy can lead to intolerance of actions of people who are outside of our ingroup, so to speak.

Take what's going on in Gaza ... Empathizing with both the Israelis and Hamas? Or Ukrainians and Russians or ... try loving Trump supporters or more generally people who you don't hold in the highest regard.

You might luck out and find some answer in some ancient text.

Understanding that people are the way the way the are because of the antecedent unfolding universe is, for me, a first step.

toty · June 17

If so, why did they chose to convert to Islam

1-

Ignorant people talk falsely about Islam

There are so many on the internet,

they are implementing a program assigned by the Church with a handful of false suspicions against Islam. It's their job

they do not know the origins of Islam, nor the reason for the revelation of the verses, nor even the true history, nor the original language of the Quran. “And they ’re not an expert on comparative religion either.”

they do not know the true biography of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him

Learn and study Islam from its original sources in specialized Islamic centers, first of all,

instead of fighting Islam and casting cheap ecclesiastical suspicions prepared in advance to deceive people and lead them away from the truth.

Scientists have proven the validity of the Qur’an scientifically, historically and morally

God promised to preserve the Qur’an

see here

Scientists' comments on Quran

https://www.islamicity.org/5437/scientists-comments-on-quran/

see here

You will be shocked

Debate: Dr. Zakir Naik vs. Dr William Campbell - The Quran and the Bible in the Light of Science

Edited June 17 by toty

toty · June 17

When do you plan to stop bearing false witness?

Islam's 'dogma' and 'beliefs'

Muslim faith is based on the Qur’an and authentic hadiths
This was written during the time of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, while he was still alive

No one cannot change a letter in the Qur’an
But your book has been manipulated by humans

We all know the Quran today is exactly as it was revealed.

We literally have 1400 year old Quran's to verify it,

I frequently point out all those who hate Islam today can't find the ability to change a single letter. Look at China, a nation of a BILLION. They have went on record saying they will write there own Quran and this was how many years ago? Where is it?

And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. (2:23 Quran)

1400 years and many haters of Islam have lived and died. Where is their Quran? Why do we only have one Quran today?
Why has EVERY generation failed to produce one surah

To this day there is one Quran. In the original language that it was revealed in.

Indeed God has claimed in the Quran kareem that He himself protects it and we see the proof of this today.

Compare this to the 20,000 changes!! in Bibles today. So many you yourself have to select specific versions.

Why are we not surprised? After all, even the gospel authors are unknown. In fact, they’re anonymous. Biblical scholars rarely, if ever, ascribe gospel authorship to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. As Ehrman tells us, “Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century. Graham Stanton affirms, “The gospels, unlike most Graeco-Roman writings, are anonymous. The familiar headings which give the name of an author (‘The Gospel according to …’)

The Bible has been changed and changed and mistranslation are 2 completely different things. Don't the 10 commandments forbid lying? Why is it that so many Christians try to deceive? Honestly it is changed even today as we live and breathe.

The truth is you worship a man who is constantly referred to as prophet in your book. A man who literally cried to God to save him in your book. A man who literally worshiped God in your book.

see here

Oldest version of the Quran at the University of Birmingham - YouTube

Is the Quran Preserved? Reading a Quran from the Prophet's Time - Adnan Rashid.

Edited June 17 by toty

Love and compassion

Recommended Posts

Modern Period

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

romansh

romansh

romansh

Posted Images

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

كلام الله، هل هو القرآن أم الإنجيل؟|The Qur'an Or The Bible, Which Is God's Word

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Contents

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Important Information