PaulS Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 10 hours ago, romansh said: Exactly what is my black history? You know nothing of my heritage. More interesting reading for you History of slavery in the Muslim world - Wikipedia Here comes the "Oh, but they weren't real 'slaves' " version of whitewashing history. Just like Biblicists do with slavery in the Old Testament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 (edited) Here I am talking about tolerant Islam, not extremists who violate the teachings of Islam Then there are extremists everywhere in the world, Jews, Christians and others. Why do you only accuse Muslims? Every country has its own policies, whether fair or unjust, whether in the East or the West, and whether the media that publishes the news is false or true. Most of your Western media spread lies about Islam and fabricated crimes that they attribute to Muslims Although there are extremists everywhere, they do not represent the tolerant teachings of Islam The question is whether the state applies the Islamic law, in which God commands justice and mercy Towards all people, or does it only care about its own interests, without adhering to God's commands? In fact, many rulers do not apply God's law, whether in the East or the West The ignorant is the one who confuses Islam with the customs and traditions of people under the pretext that they are Muslims The media brainwashes simple people with false news about Islam Islam does not support slavery at all, but the Prophet was rather eliminated it gradually because slavery existed before Islam Slavery existed in the West and East before the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him The Prophet Muhammad bought slaves to free them from the humiliation of slavery and treat them with mercy The Prophet was gradually eliminating slavery as much as possible During that period, the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, freed slaves and treated them with mercy before and after liberation It is worth pointing out that you do not find any text in the Quran or Sunnah that enjoins taking others as slaves, There were many sources of slaves before the time of the advent of Islam, when the means to inhabit them were practically nil. Islam changed the way slavery was treated; he created many new ways to free slaves, blocked many ways to enslave people, and set guidelines that blocked those ways Gustavus the Good says in Hadaarat al-'Arab (Arab Civilization) (p. 459-460): What I sincerely believe is that slavery among Muslims is better than slavery among any other people, and that the situation of slaves in the east is better than that of servants in Europe, and that slaves in the east are part of the family. Slaves who wanted to be free could access freedom by expressing their wish. But despite this, they did not resort to the exercise of this right. When Europe made contact with black Africa, this contact led to human misery during which the blacks of that continent were faced with a major calamity that lasted five centuries. The states of Europe have found evil ways to kidnap these people and bring them to their lands to fuel their rebirth, where they have loaded them with more work than they can handle. When America was discovered the calamity increased and they became slaves on two continents instead of just one. The Encyclopedia Britannica says (2/779) on the subject of slavery: The hunting of slaves in the villages which were surrounded by the jungle was done by lighting fires in the straw of which the corrals surrounding the villages were made, then when the villagers fled into the open ground, the British were chasing them with all the means at their disposal. During the period 1661 to 1774, for every million black Africans who reached the Americas, an additional nine million died during hunting, loading, and transporting. In other words, only a tenth of those who were driven out survived and made it to the Americas, where they found neither rest nor relief, but instead were subjected to forced labor and torture. At that time, they had laws that any wise person would be ashamed of. Among these bad laws were those which said that any slave who transgressed against his master should be killed, and any slave who ran away would have his hands and feet cut off, In America, if seven blacks got together, it was considered a crime, and if a white man walked past them, he was allowed to spit on them and give them twenty lashes. Another law declared that blacks had no soul and that they had no intelligence, no intelligence, or will, and that life existed only in their arms. To sum up, when it came to his duties and service to his master, the slave was considered sane, responsible and punishable if he failed, but when it came to his rights, he had neither soul nor be, and he was no more than a strong pair of arms! Finally, after many centuries of slavery and oppression, came the protocol to abolish slavery and strive to end it, in a resolution issued by the United Nations in 1953 CE. Their consciences therefore woke up only in the last century, after having built their civilization on Slavery in Islam - Dr. Jonathan AC Brown | Lecture Islam, Slavery and the African - Abdullah Hakim Quick Hadith #30 - Slavery in Islam | 40 Hadiths on Social Justice Islam and Slavery - By Dr. Zakir Naik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-15no-m0jn4 Edited June 8 by toty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 8 Author Share Posted June 8 (edited) How did non-Muslims treat slaves? Attitude of the Jews towards slaves: According to the Jews, mankind is divided into two groups: the Israelites form one group and all of mankind is another group. As for the Israelites, it is permissible to enslave some of them, according to specific teachings contained in the Old Testament. As for people other than the Israelites, they are a low-class race according to the Jews, who may be enslaved via domination and subjugation, because they are people who are doomed to humiliation by the heavenly decree from eternity. It says in Exodus 21:2-6: “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. 5 But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,' 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life” As for enslaving non-Hebrews, this is done by taking them captive or overpowering them, because they believe that their race is superior to others, and they try to find a justification for that slavery in their distorted Torah. So they say that Ham the son of Noah – who was the father of Canaan – angered his father, because Noah was drunk one day and became naked as he was sleeping in his tent, and Ham saw him like that. When Noah found out about that after he woke up, he got angry and he cursed his progeny who were descendents of Canaan, and he said – according to the Book of Genesis 9:25-26): “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.’ He also said, ‘Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem.’” In the same chapter (v. 27) it says: “May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his [or their] slave”. In the Book of Deuteronomy 20:10-14, it says: “When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves” Attitude of the Christians towards slaves: Christianity confirmed slavery as it had been affirmed beforehand by Judaism. There is no text in the Gospels that prohibits or denounces slavery. It is remarkable that the historian William Muir criticized our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) for not immediately abolishing slavery, whilst overlooking the attitude of the Gospels concerning slavery, as there is no report from the Messiah, or from the Disciples, or from the churches concerning this issue. Rather, in his Epistles, Paul advised that slaves should be loyal to their masters, as he says in his Epistle to the Ephesians, where he enjoins slaves to obey their masters as they would obey the Messiah: “5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free” (Ephesians 6:5-9). In Grand Larousse encyclopédique, it says: It comes as no surprise that slavery has continued among Christians until today; the official representatives of the faith have affirmed its validity and accepted its legitimacy. … to sum up: the Christian religion approved fully of slavery and still does so today. It is very difficult for anyone to prove that Christianity strove to abolish slavery. The saints affirmed that nature makes some people slaves. Churchmen did not prevent slavery or oppose it; rather they supported it, to such an extent that the philosopher saint Thomas Aquinas supported the philosophical view that agreed with the view of religious leaders, and he did not object to slavery, rather he praised it because – according to the view of Aristotle – it is one of the conditions in which some people are created naturally, and it does not contradict faith for a man to be content with the lowest position in life. In the Dictionary of the Bible by Dr. George Yousuf it says: Christianity did not object to slavery for political or economic reasons, and it did not urge believers to oppose their generation’s views with regard to slavery, or even debate it, and it did not say anything against the rights of slave owners or motivate the slaves to seek independence; it did not discuss the harm or harshness of slavery and it did not enjoin the immediate release of slaves. It did not change anything in the nature of the relationship between master and slave; on the contrary, it affirmed the rights and duties of both parties. Contemporary Europe and slavery It is the reader’s right, in this era of advancement and progress, to ask questions about the pioneers of this progress and the numbers of people who died because of the way in which they were hunted, and who died on their way to the coast where the ships of the English Company and others would wait, then the rest died due to changes in climate. Approximately 4% died as they were being loaded onto the ships, and 12 % during the journey, let alone those who died in the colonies. The slave trade continued at the hands of English companies that obtained the right of monopoly with the permission of the British government, then gave free rein to British subjects to enslave people. Some experts estimate that the total number of people seized by the British during slavery and exiled to the colonies between 1680 and 1786 CE was around 2,130,000. Edited June 8 by toty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 7 hours ago, toty said: I am talking about tolerant Islam, not extremists who violate the teachings of Islam Are you familiar with the informal fallacy of no true Scotsman? If you are, why do you keep repeating it? If you are not, please read the link. 7 hours ago, toty said: Why do you only accuse Muslims? Because you are here proselytizing for an idyllic interpretation of a religion that is palpably false as practiced in the real world. 7 hours ago, toty said: Most of your Western media spread lies about Islam and fabricated crimes that they attribute to Muslims I have asked you for an example before. 7 hours ago, toty said: Islam does not support slavery at all, Prophet, We have made lawful for you your wives whom you have given their dowry, slave girls whom God has given to you as gifts, the daughters of your uncles and aunts, both paternal and maternal, who have migrated with you. The believing woman, who has offered herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet may want to marry, will be specially for him, not for other believers. We knew what to make obligatory for them concerning their wives and slave girls so that you would face no hardship (because we have given distinction to you over the believers). God is All-forgiving and All-merciful. You are forbidden to marry married women except your slave-girls. This is the decree of God. Besides these, it is lawful for you to marry other women if you pay their dower, maintain chastity and do not commit indecency. If you marry them for the appointed time you must pay their dowries. There is no harm if you reach an understanding among yourselves about the dowry, God is All-knowing and All-wise. Decreed by God no-less. 7 hours ago, toty said: The ignorant is the one who confuses Islam with the customs and traditions of people under the pretext that they are Muslims The media brainwashes simple people with false news about Islam Possibly ... but people's actions speak louder than words. How do you know you have not been "brainwashed"? For the record, my heritage is not American or British. I do not consider myself Christian. So your whataboutism is falling on deaf ears. Another logical fallacy on your part toty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 12 hours ago, toty said: Then there are extremists everywhere in the world, Jews, Christians and others. Why do you only accuse Muslims? Have you not been reading where I have noted that there are Christians who commit violent crime too? 12 hours ago, toty said: Most of your Western media spread lies about Islam and fabricated crimes that they attribute to Muslims Funnily enough, in Australia, we get this exact same argument from many Christians about the media and Christianity! Always oppressed, apparently! 12 hours ago, toty said: Although there are extremists everywhere, they do not represent the tolerant teachings of Islam See Rom's 'No True Scotsman" fallacy. 12 hours ago, toty said: Islam does not support slavery at all, but the Prophet was rather eliminated it gradually because slavery existed before Islam Modern Islam perhaps - Islam in the Prophet's day simply did support slavery. Nowhere does the Prophet openly condemn slavery like a modern human would. 12 hours ago, toty said: Slavery existed in the West and East before the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him Yes, sadly it did, and the Prophet engaged in it also. 12 hours ago, toty said: The Prophet Muhammad bought slaves to free them from the humiliation of slavery and treat them with mercy No - freeing a slave would be mercy, the Prophet still owned other humans, but allegedly just treated them better than some others. In fact, according to sahih (authentic) hadith Muhammad encouraged gifting of slaves to be a better alternative to setting them free. 12 hours ago, toty said: The Prophet was gradually eliminating slavery as much as possible Negative - the Prophet is alleged to have a kinder take on owning other humans, but he NEVER condemns slavery. 12 hours ago, toty said: It is worth pointing out that you do not find any text in the Quran or Sunnah that enjoins taking others as slaves, Neither do you find a single Islamic verse CONDEMNING slavery! Not one! None of this is to condemn the Prophet any more than anybody else who engaged in slavery in those times , but rather it is just to point out you are looking at how somebody behaved in 600CE and trying to pretend they were something they were not so as to fit your dogma and religious narrative. It is not genuine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 hour ago, PaulS said: that fake Muslims walk ... And here is @toty casting his pearls of spam amongst a small group of 'mostly harmless' people while a significant percentage of fake Muslims apply fake Islamic doctrines upon the true Scots Muslims. Why is not toty preaching to the deluded fake Muslims? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 2 hours ago, romansh said: Why is not toty preaching to the deluded fake Muslims? Well I guess our two souls are worth all their time and effort, more so than deluded Muslims who wish to harm and kill others in the name of Allah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 Do not talk about Islam ignorantly just because you are emotionally charged against Muslims O Prophet! We have made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their ˹full˺ dowries as well as those ˹bondwomen˺ in your possession, whom Allah has granted you. And ˹you are allowed to marry˺ the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have emigrated like you. Also ˹allowed for marriage is˺ a believing woman who offers herself to the Prophet ˹without dowry˺ if he is interested in marrying her—˹this is˺ exclusively for you, not for the rest of the believers. We know well what ˹rulings˺ We have ordained for the believers in relation to their wives and those ˹bondwomen˺ in their possession. As such, there would be no blame on you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. The Prophet Muhammad married free women and slave women, so they were liberated by marriage So what's the problem! 2- Most of your Western media spread lies about Islam and fabricated crimes that they attribute to Muslims I have asked you for an example before. There are many examples, such as Islam being a terrorist religion Without distinguishing between tolerant Islam and people’s wrong actions that contradict the true, tolerant religion If, on the other hand, you are referring to the crimes being committed today by those claiming to follow Islam - please do your homework. Those are not Muslims. Those are wealth-and-power-worshipping mushrikeen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 Neither do you find a single Islamic verse CONDEMNING slavery! Not one! no Many verses in the Qur’an Nowhere in Quran GOD promotes slavery. On the contrary, you will see that He promotes freeing slaves (through charity or as atonement for our sins etc.): [2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous. [5:89] GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your actual intentions. If you violate an oath, you shall atone by feeding ten poor people from the same food you offer to your own family, or clothing them, or by freeing a slave. If you cannot afford this, then you shall fast three days. This is the atonement for violating the oaths that you swore to keep. You shall fulfill your oaths. GOD thus explains His revelations to you, that you may be appreciative. And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 24:32–33) In the above verses the Muslims are commanded to free their slaves if the slaves can prove they can financially support themselves and remain chaste. The Muslims are also encouraged by the Quran to marry their slaves if they do not find suitable matches. The Quran says : And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 4:25) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 3 minutes ago, toty said: The Prophet Muhammad married free women and slave women, so they were liberated by marriage So the wife can walk away after marriage. What a wonderful religion. I apologise for my ignorance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 3 minutes ago, toty said: On the contrary, you will see that He promotes freeing slaves You continue to avoid the point. It is not what the Quran does say or does not say. It is how Islam is practiced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 The hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to liberate slaves Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever frees his share of a common slave and he has sufficient money to free him completely, should let its price be estimated by a just man and give his partners the price of their shares and manumit the slave; otherwise (i.e. if he has not sufficient money) he manumits the slave partially. The Quran imposed some rules against slavery by forcing people to free slaves as a punishment. also the holy prophet himself was totally against slavery and he once mentioned that the most horrible thing that anyone can do is to sale slaves. some may ask why then he didn't forbid the slavery back then once and for ever? the short answer is he couldn't do that for many reasons, for example about 50 percent of population at the time were slaves so if he had forbidden the slavery, many of them would have died or starved because all of them were homeless and very poor. he sat up many rules that terminated slavery later in Islamic societies. A young Scottish declares his Islam and says why they are fighting Islam https://www.facebook.com/100059866625821/videos/894823738915391 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 1 minute ago, toty said: A young Scottish declares his Islam and says why they are fighting Islam You plainly do not understand the fallacy you are committing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 7 minutes ago, toty said: The hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to liberate slaves But it is clear in the Quran that NOT ONCE, does the Prophet condemn slavery. Would you condemn slavery Toty? I expect as a modern human you would actually condemn it. I would also expect, that as a man of his age, the Prophet accepted slavery as a cultural norm. Sure, he might have treated salves a bit nicer than nasty slave owners, but he still saw it as okay to own another person and to have authority over them for no other reason than they were not an equal human. It's okay to acknowledge that. That is the reality. It is a fantasy to pretend that the Prophet was against slavery. He simply wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 9 Author Share Posted June 9 This is your opinion only If the Prophet supported slavery, why did he order people to sell their shares and free the slaves? Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever frees his share of a common slave and he has sufficient money to free him completely, should let its price be estimated by a just man and give his partners the price of their shares and manumit the slave; otherwise (i.e. if he has not sufficient money) he manumits the slave partially. you are filled with Islamophobia and irrational Slavery ! Sheikh Uthman Ibn Farooq VS David Wood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 13 hours ago, toty said: You are filled with Islamophobia and irrational Now you are sounding like an irrational Christian fundamentalist who feels the need to defend the written word no matter how irrational it is! Quite rationally, one should expect the Prophet to condemn slavery if he indeed was against it, yet he never did! Not a single word in the Quran condemning slavery as evil - not one! So we can clearly see that the Prophet, as a man of that culture and that time, understood slavery different as to how we do today. And just as the fundamentalist Christian tries to apply a first century mindset to a 21st century life, you too are mistaking blind loyalty to the Prophet you have become me to believe in, for reality of who he was in that place and time. The Quran shows you that, but you choose to believe otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 18 hours ago, toty said: you are filled with Islamophobia and irrational I will let Paul speak for himself, but I don't think Islamophobia is irrational. But it falls under this neologism: ilithiophobia. Of course, a stupid person per se, is nothing to be afraid of. Now a group of stupid people may well be a reason for concern or perhaps a stupid individual that has power. So who is a stupid person? Perhaps it is someone who believes a doctrine (say the Qur'an) without question, does not realize this person has been brainwashed, and goes around regurgitating and proselytizing bits and pieces without thought. Not addressing points that are addressed to them. eg have you ever addressed this issue @toty and @akay? On 5/3/2024 at 11:19 AM, romansh said: toty have you ever posted here as akay? Stupidity for me is being certain that I am right. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 11 Author Share Posted June 11 (edited) Why are you such an obvious liar that readers laugh at you? The verses of the Qur’an and the hadiths of the Prophet condemn slavery Readers have read it Truly, you are mercenaries for the church, to distort the image of Islam Neither do you find a single Islamic verse CONDEMNING slavery! Not one! no Many verses in the Qur’an Nowhere in Quran GOD promotes slavery. On the contrary, you will see that He promotes freeing slaves (through charity or as atonement for our sins etc.): [2:177] Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in GOD, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveling alien, the beggars, and to free the slaves; and they observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat); and they keep their word whenever they make a promise; and they steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war. These are the truthful; these are the righteous. [5:89] GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your actual intentions. If you violate an oath, you shall atone by feeding ten poor people from the same food you offer to your own family, or clothing them, or by freeing a slave. If you cannot afford this, then you shall fast three days. This is the atonement for violating the oaths that you swore to keep. You shall fulfill your oaths. GOD thus explains His revelations to you, that you may be appreciative. And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. But let them who find not [the means for] marriage abstain [from sexual relations] until Allah enriches them from His bounty. And those who seek a contract [for eventual emancipation] from among whom your right hands possess - then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you. And do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, to seek [thereby] the temporary interests of worldly life. And if someone should compel them, then indeed, Allah is [to them], after their compulsion, Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 24:32–33) In the above verses the Muslims are commanded to free their slaves if the slaves can prove they can financially support themselves and remain chaste. The Muslims are also encouraged by the Quran to marry their slaves if they do not find suitable matches. The Quran says : And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Quran 4:25) 2- The hadiths of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to liberate slaves Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever frees his share of a common slave and he has sufficient money to free him completely, should let its price be estimated by a just man and give his partners the price of their shares and manumit the slave; otherwise (i.e. if he has not sufficient money) he manumits the slave partially. The Quran imposed some rules against slavery by forcing people to free slaves as a punishment. also the holy prophet himself was totally against slavery and he once mentioned that the most horrible thing that anyone can do is to sale slaves. some may ask why then he didn't forbid the slavery back then once and for ever? the short answer is he couldn't do that for many reasons, for example about 50 percent of population at the time were slaves so if he had forbidden the slavery, many of them would have died or starved because all of them were homeless and very poor. he sat up many rules that terminated slavery later in Islamic societies. A young Scottish declares his Islam and says why they are fighting Islam https://www.facebook.com/100059866625821/videos/894823738915391 An American history major changes his convictions after reading the Qur’an Mohamed Ali Edited June 11 by toty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 1 hour ago, toty said: Why are you such an obvious liar that readers laugh at you? The verses of the Qur’an and the hadiths of the Prophet condemn slavery Readers have read it Truly, you are mercenaries for the church, to distort the image of Islam. No, the verses simply don't condemn slavery. 'Condemnation' would read something like "Allah says don't have slaves. Allah says slavery is evil. Allah prohibits keeping anybody as a slave, ever". That's condemnation, not this nancying around it saying what's nice to do and what is seen as favourable. Really I think Muslims need to simply acknowledge that back in those times, slavery was a cultural norm and whilst good things were starting to happen in that space slowly, unfortunately nowhere near enough was being done by the Prophet or others to rid the world of this abhorrent practice. 1 hour ago, toty said: The Quran imposed some rules against slavery by forcing people to free slaves as a punishment. also the holy prophet himself was totally against slavery and he once mentioned that the most horrible thing that anyone can do is to sale slaves. Personally, I think the most horrible thing that a person could do is actually think they 'own' another person, like the Prophet did. I find that abominable, but it was a cultural norm back in his day, I know. 1 hour ago, toty said: Some may ask why then he didn't forbid the slavery back then once and for ever? The short answer is he couldn't do that for many reasons, for example about 50 percent of population at the time were slaves so if he had forbidden the slavery, many of them would have died or starved because all of them were homeless and very poor. he sat up many rules that terminated slavery later in Islamic societies. So he was pro-slavery for reasons you find noble! Which is it @Toty - is the Prophet AGAINST owning other humans as you claim, or is he FOR owning other humans for the reasons you state above? You can't have both! Is Allah that powerless that he wouldn't be able to care for freed slaves and protect them from starvation and homelessness? So Allah preferred that people be kept in slavery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toty Posted June 11 Author Share Posted June 11 (edited) This is your opinion that no one cares about But the reality is that the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did his best to gradually prevent slavery He is one man, so this is credited to him despite the infidels persecuting him and fighting him By the grace of God, God taught us that there is good and evil in the world to test us أمريكي متخصص في التاريخ يغير قناعاته بعدما قرأ القرآن | محمد علي نصرانية أرثدوكسية تسأل عن العنف والقتل في القرآن | محمد علي Edited June 11 by toty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 5 hours ago, toty said: This is your opinion that no one cares about But the reality is that the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, did his best to gradually prevent slavery. Then clearly Mohamed and Allah didn’t care enough about people to end slavery immediately. That’s not my opinion - that’s the evidence of the Quran! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 (edited) 7 hours ago, toty said: This is your opinion that no one cares about I care about Paul's opinion so your statement is false. If you don't care about someone else's opinion that makes you an interesting dilemma. You care enough to dispute the opinion but you don't care. This also explains a lot about your posts. You don't care enough to understand other people's points of view and actually answer the point they are making. I always assumed it was because English is not your first language. Your method of presenting your opinions is completely ineffectual. You don't engage with your interlocutors, just spam and more spam. I care about your opinion because it's poison to a rational society. In my opinion, of course. There is no need to respond as you likely don't care about my opinion. Edited June 11 by romansh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 Here's a summary from ChatGPT It would appear Western enlightenment was more effective in a shorter period than Mohammed and his Qur'an The timelines for the abolition of slavery in Western countries and Islamic countries vary significantly, reflecting different historical, cultural, and socio-political contexts. Here is a comparison of key milestones in the abolition of slavery in both regions: Western Countries United Kingdom 1807: The British Parliament passed the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act, prohibiting the slave trade within the British Empire. 1833: The Slavery Abolition Act was enacted, leading to the gradual emancipation of enslaved people in most of the British Empire by 1838. United States 1863: President Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, declaring the freedom of all enslaved people in Confederate territory. 1865: The 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified, abolishing slavery throughout the United States. France 1794: France initially abolished slavery in its colonies during the French Revolution, but it was reinstated by Napoleon in 1802. 1848: Slavery was definitively abolished in the French colonies by the decree of Victor Schoelcher. Portugal 1761: Portugal abolished slavery within its European territories. 1869: Portugal abolished slavery in its overseas colonies. Spain 1811: The Cortes of Cádiz decreed the abolition of the Spanish slave trade. 1886: Slavery was abolished in Cuba, one of the last Spanish colonies to do so. Islamic Countries Ottoman Empire 1847: The Ottoman Empire abolished the slave trade in white slaves. 1882: The importation of African slaves into the empire was prohibited. 1908: Further legal reforms were implemented to suppress slavery, although the practice persisted in some areas until the early 20th century. Saudi Arabia 1962: Slavery was officially abolished in Saudi Arabia following international pressure. Yemen 1962: North Yemen abolished slavery after a revolution. 1967: South Yemen followed suit with the abolition of slavery. Qatar 1952: Slavery was abolished in Qatar. United Arab Emirates 1963: Slavery was abolished in the Trucial States, which later formed the UAE. Mauritania 1981: Mauritania became the last country in the world to abolish slavery legally. 2007: A law was passed criminalizing slavery, but enforcement remains a challenge. Comparative Analysis Early Abolitions: Western countries, particularly those in Europe, began abolishing the slave trade and slavery itself earlier than many Islamic countries. The United Kingdom and France were pioneers in the early 19th century. Late Abolitions: In contrast, some Islamic countries, such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Mauritania, abolished slavery much later, with official abolition occurring in the mid to late 20th century. Continued Practices: Despite official abolitions, both regions faced challenges with the continuation of illegal slavery and forced labor practices. Enforcement and cultural shifts took longer to take hold, particularly in regions where economic and social structures were heavily dependent on slave labor. Overall, the abolition timelines reflect a complex interplay of international pressure, economic changes, and internal reforms in both Western and Islamic countries. An addendum: Non-Arabic Islamic Countries Iran 1848: The slave trade was officially banned in Iran by Shah Naser al-Din. 1928: Slavery was abolished in Iran under Reza Shah Pahlavi. Turkey (successor state to the Ottoman Empire) 1924: Following the establishment of the Republic of Turkey, the new government took steps to eliminate remaining practices of slavery. Afghanistan 1923: Slavery was abolished in Afghanistan under King Amanullah Khan's reforms. Pakistan 1947: Upon gaining independence, Pakistan inherited British colonial laws that included the abolition of slavery. The enforcement of anti-slavery laws was reaffirmed post-independence. India 1843: The British colonial government formally abolished slavery in India. 1947: Upon gaining independence, India maintained the anti-slavery laws established during British rule. Indonesia 1860: The Dutch East Indies (modern-day Indonesia) abolished slavery. 1949: Upon gaining independence, Indonesia continued to uphold the prohibition of slavery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romansh Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 First Fitna (656–661) Parties: Followers of Ali ibn Abi Talib vs. Followers of Aisha, Talha, and Zubair Cause: Civil war over the rightful caliphate after the assassination of Caliph Uthman. Second Fitna (680–692) Parties: Umayyads vs. Various factions including supporters of Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr Cause: Succession dispute following the death of Caliph Muawiya I. Abbasid Revolution (747–750) Parties: Abbasid forces vs. Umayyad Caliphate Cause: Overthrow of the Umayyad Caliphate and establishment of the Abbasid Caliphate. Alid Revolts (762–763) Parties: Abbasid Caliphate vs. Alid (Shi'a) rebels Cause: Revolts by the descendants of Ali against the Abbasid rule. Fatimid Conquest of Egypt (969) Parties: Fatimid Caliphate vs. Abbasid Caliphate (Ikhshidid dynasty) Cause: Fatimid expansion and consolidation of power in Egypt. Seljuk-Byzantine Wars (11th–13th centuries) Parties: Various Seljuk factions vs. Other Islamic dynasties Cause: Power struggles and territorial disputes among Islamic dynasties. 14th to 17th Centuries Timurid Conquests (1370–1507) Parties: Timurid Empire vs. various Islamic states, including the Delhi Sultanate, Ottoman Empire, Mamluk Sultanate, and others. Cause: Expansion of the Timurid Empire under Timur (Tamerlane) and his successors. Ottoman-Mamluk War (1485–1491) Parties: Ottoman Empire vs. Mamluk Sultanate Cause: Territorial disputes in Anatolia and the Levant. Ottoman-Safavid Wars (16th–18th centuries) Parties: Ottoman Empire vs. Safavid Empire Cause: Territorial control and religious differences (Sunni Ottomans vs. Shia Safavids). Ottoman-Persian Wars (1514–1823) Parties: Ottoman Empire vs. various Persian dynasties, including the Safavid and Qajar dynasties. Cause: Territorial disputes and regional dominance. Battle of Chaldiran (1514) Parties: Ottoman Empire vs. Safavid Empire Cause: Religious and territorial conflict; significant for Ottoman victory establishing dominance in eastern Anatolia. 18th to 19th Centuries Afghan-Persian Wars (18th–19th centuries) Parties: Various Afghan dynasties (Durrani Empire) vs. Persian dynasties (Safavid, Afsharid, and Qajar) Cause: Territorial disputes and control over regions like Khorasan. Wahhabi War (1811–1818) Parties: Ottoman Empire (with Egyptian forces under Muhammad Ali) vs. First Saudi State Cause: Ottoman attempt to suppress the Wahhabi movement in Arabia. Egyptian-Ottoman War (1831–1833, 1839–1841) Parties: Muhammad Ali of Egypt vs. Ottoman Empire Cause: Muhammad Ali's ambitions to establish a hereditary dynasty and control over Ottoman territories. Herat Campaign (1837–1838) Parties: Qajar Iran vs. Emirate of Herat (supported by British influence) Cause: Iranian attempts to regain control over Herat, opposed by British interests in Afghanistan. Modern Conflicts Iran-Iraq War (1980–1988) Parties: Iran vs. Iraq Cause: Territorial disputes, particularly over the Shatt al-Arab waterway, and ideological differences following the Iranian Revolution. Gulf War (1990–1991) Parties: Iraq vs. Kuwait (with coalition forces including Islamic countries) Cause: Iraq's invasion of Kuwait and subsequent liberation of Kuwait by a coalition led by the United States. Yemeni Civil War (1994) Parties: Yemen Arab Republic (North Yemen) vs. Democratic Republic of Yemen (South Yemen) Cause: Tensions following the unification of North and South Yemen in 1990. Afghanistan Civil War (1996–2001) Parties: Taliban vs. Northern Alliance Cause: Struggle for control of Afghanistan following the Soviet withdrawal and the fall of the communist government. Libyan Civil War (2011–present) Parties: Various factions including the Government of National Accord, the Libyan National Army, and others Cause: Power struggle following the fall of Muammar Gaddafi. Syrian Civil War (2011–present) Parties: Syrian government vs. Various opposition groups, including ISIS and Kurdish forces (with involvement from multiple Islamic countries) Cause: Anti-government protests and subsequent armed conflict. Saudi Arabian-led intervention in Yemen (2015–present) Parties: Saudi Arabia and coalition vs. Houthi rebels (supported by Iran) Cause: Yemeni political crisis and Houthi takeover of the government. Qatar Diplomatic Crisis (2017–2021) Parties: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Egypt vs. Qatar Cause: Allegations of Qatar's support for terrorism and its relations with Iran. Sectarian Conflicts Iraq Conflict (post-2003 invasion) Parties: Sunni insurgent groups vs. Shia militias Cause: Power vacuum and sectarian divisions following the US-led invasion of Iraq. Bahraini Uprising (2011) Parties: Sunni-led government vs. Shia majority protesters Cause: Demands for political reform and end to perceived discrimination. Saudi-Yemeni War (1934) Parties: Saudi Arabia vs. Mutawakkilite Kingdom of Yemen Cause: Border disputes and Saudi expansion. First and Second Kurdish-Iraqi Wars (1961–1970, 1974–1975) Parties: Iraqi government vs. Kurdish rebels Cause: Kurdish demands for autonomy and control over Kurdish regions in Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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