JosephM

On 9/17/2020 at 8:35 AM, Pipiripi said:

Sorry my friend, you don't understand the scriptures. You are just following men teaching. 

No man taught me that but it is okay with me if you want to remain in bondage to the covenant from Mount Sinai. Myself, i choose to be free.

2 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

The Commandments stay till the end of the world. Matthew 5:17-18. Does this world has PASSED away?

Pipiripi,

The "Word" of God

Logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning. To me, the invisible  energy by which all things are directed into 'being',  both seen and unseen.

In my view, the Bible does not qualify to the definition. It is neither divine reason nor implicit in the cosmos. It is a series of short books/stories and letters (epistles) containing past down historical accounts, instructional advice for living, proverbs, prophecies, interpretations/definitions/descriptions of God both literal and symbolic written by men/women concerning their view of God and God's relation with men as reasoned through the eyes of their time and personal experiences.

That about sums it up for me concerning the question of the initial post of this thread by Elen..

British Wisdom on Cancel Culture and Racism.....

11 hours ago, KT Kishan said:

Just want to know more ..

Welcome. Why not tell us a bit about your background and join in the conversations? 

5 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

You don't understand the scriptures very well my friend. Jesus was showing the pharisees what to do on Sabbath. 

 

Perhaps you don't grasp  that  every day is the Sabbath day. Hebrews 4:1-10 . Don't fail to enter into his rest as some did in olden times.   Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. To live under the law is death. When a new will and testament is made the old is made void else confusion results. Are you living under the Old Testament? https://www.phildrysdale.com/2013/10/37-scriptures-that-prove-christians-are-not-under-the-law/

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12 hours ago, Pipiripi said:

Not only focus on grace. Don't do nothing that we regularly do. But talk about God and help others in their weakness. 

REMEMBER! Keep my Sabbath Holy. Are you remembering!!

Jesus did something that he regularly did throughout the week. Luke 13:14 

And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

Pipiripi, Will you be indignant also like the  Pharisees ? !!

Dimitryet,

Welcome to the forum. I deleted all your images with advertisements on your post in other wisdom traditions. Please do not use this site with images that contain advertisements.

JosephM (as Moderator)

I think some may find this video from 1968 which to me applies to whats happening  today quite interesting really...

Sourced from government archive.

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

My mother was married for over 50 years too. She is out living him by like twenty years or more. Their house was paid for and they thought she could live as long as she wanted after he passed. They needed to use a good amount of their savings to take care of my father in his last years. When he passed she lost part of his pension and part of his social security, and the taxes on the house kept going up and up and up.

One definitely needs to plan ahead. My wife has her own pension and Social security plus if I were to pass she would get more SS not less. One cannot be 100% certain of the future but we have done all we can to prepare and the rest is out of our hands. Sure if she lives long enough she may have to sell the house and get something  more within her means if taxes were to increase too much. . The state you live ion matters, thats why we moved to Florida (Increases in value are limited to 3% of the previous year's assessment or the Consumer Price Index (CPI) in Florida, whichever is less. This limitation is known as the "Save Our Homes" cap. )

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I see so much of this. Women who are left with next to nothing while their husbands are off with 2 houses and 5 cars and who knows what else. It's wrong and it's not fair. Men are not supposed to make women's lives less safe and less secure. That's not being real men, and if they think it is their perceptions are upside down and the opposite of what is true and what is really real. 

Life isn't fair but that doesn't mean people should live everyday as their last. One must be wise so that scenarios like the one's you mention are exceptions rather than the rules. Marriage is a 50/50 interest and both parties need to have a hand in their interests lest things like you mention happen while one turns a blind eye.

33 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

By fine print I mean; make sure that your spouse and or family will really be taken care of if you pass on. Sometimes they make you think that everything will be fine and fall into place, when the truth is that it is not and does not.

I don't have insurance. I have been married 52 years. My home is paid for along with all other possesions. I have saved enough in federally insured cash to carry my wife for many years along with my investments.

36 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

I've worked with people both from Canada and Germany. Both groups of people have told me that they think they have it better than we do. They work fewer hours, they have guaranteed healthcare, (this helps them not be so chained to 1 job and corporation), they have guaranteed  childcare, (don't need to worry if they will be able to take care of their children).

Me too and they are paying for it with a standard of living that has little incentive to get ahead because of taxes.

On 8/21/2020 at 3:52 PM, Elen1107 said:

You might be as much the exception as the rule in terms of looking out for your family if you pass first. So many people were told that everything would be ok, and then it turns out that it's not. Make sure you read the fine print, and know for real what is going to happen.

If these things are "socialist", then one would have to call most of Europe and Canada "socialist". I don't see them like that at all. They all took the good thing that we had during the 50's and made it better. I'm thinking that the US shouldn't be so arrogant and full of itself, as to not be able to keep growing and getting better and not be able to learn from other countries.

Don't know what you mean by fine print?

If i thought Europe or Canada was a better place to live than the US ..... i would move there.  What i have learned from those countries is that my family and i prefer to live in this great country of opportunity in spite of some peoples perception that the grass is somehow greener in the other country.

12 hours ago, PaulS said:

I said earlier that "poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it.  Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them.  I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be".

With nearly 20% of your population living in poverty, to me it seems their choices about moving are very limited.  It would seem 1/5th of your population can't change states or counties even if they desperately wanted to.  They simply can't afford it whilst living in poverty.

Ok , we will have to disagree because of my experience as we moved when we were in the standard for poverty. It  required lowering our standard of living and some sacrifice but to me,  it is as simple as that. It is the negativity of the thinking mind that makes things difficult. Some of the happiest people i know are those that have the least.

19 minutes ago, PaulS said:

But the issue was you were saying 'the poor' are a very small section of your society.  I am saying that nearly 20% of your society living in poverty is more than a 'very small' cohort.

And I am saying in reality they (that 20 of our society are not poor by world standards.  I am saying that the level of poverty as classifying as poor is relative and doesn't give a clear picture of our society and how well we are off which includes those 20% that is reported as living in poverty.

PS: I meant to add but forgot in my post above this one ...

 In Matthew 15:21–28, Jesus encounters a Canaanite (Syrophoenician) woman who begs Him to cure her daughter. Jesus initially refuses her request by saying, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs” (Matthew 15:26). Taken out of context, and especially in English, it’s easy to mistake this for an insult. In the flow of the story, however, it’s clear Jesus is creating a metaphor meant to explain the priorities of His ministry. He is also teaching an important lesson to His disciples.

Jews in Jesus’ day sometimes referred to Gentiles as “dogs.” In Greek, this word is kuon, meaning “wild cur” (Matthew 7:6; Luke 16:21; Philippians 3:2). Non-Jews were considered so unspiritual that even being in their presence could make a person ceremonially unclean (John 18:28). Much of Jesus’ ministry, however, involved turning expectations and prejudices on their heads (Matthew 11:19; John 4:9–10). According to Matthew’s narrative, Jesus left Israel and went into Tyre and Sidon, which was Gentile territory (Matthew 15:21). When the Canaanite woman approached and repeatedly asked for healing, the disciples were annoyed and asked Jesus to send her away (Matthew 15:23).

At this point, Jesus explained His current ministry in a way that both the woman and the watching disciples could understand. At that time, His duty was to the people of Israel, not to the Gentiles (Matthew 15:24). Recklessly taking His attention from Israel, in violation of His mission, would be like a father taking food from his children in order to throw it to their pets (Matthews 15:26). The exact word Jesus used here, in Greek, was kunarion, meaning “small dog” or “pet dog.” This is a completely different word from the term kuon, used to refer to unspiritual people or to an “unclean” animal.

And the important part .... he granted her wish.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

Why do you 'have' to?  Because it won't harmonize if you don't?  You don't entertain the notion that Matthew, following Mark and living in a more gentile community, might have softened the message somewhat?

Hey, i don't even believe that the writings are the word of God. But if you want to use them in a debate like the meaning derived from calling the Gentile dogs, it has to be done in context of time and collaborated with the other writings in the book if you wish to get a clearer picture. I am not trying to second guess what Jesus meant as if i know but in the context of all the gospels he doesn't specifically exclude Gentiles from listening to his teachings. He trained Apostles to go out into the world . His mission was to the Jews we agree but not to the exclusion of the Gentiles sharing in the faith as evidenced by all the Gospels and the definition of Gentile. I have no desire to be a scholar of the Bible even though i have 4 years of Bible college. It only breeds endless debate of things that in my view are of little importance to that which is in the spirit of Christ. So i will bow out of this and leave you to think what you want to think concerning the centurion, woman, and mixed multitude that made up what most refer to as Jews.

As far as Erhman goes it is fine with me if he and others wish to 2nd guess concerning the kingdom that Jesus preached. I am convinced that it was spiritual and it is an experience rather than a physical kingdom that will reveal itself as confirmation to each in his/her own order.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

If we applied that mindset pre-civil war, then I guess blacks would still be slaves.  What about changing your thinking and saying to yourself "If it makes my brother feel more engaged and less downtrodden, then I will be happy to make the change".  It should be pretty easy just to change how you think.

It seems to me you take it to an extreme in your example here. Being offended at something is not the same as being in slavery. A slave had little control over his situation as a slave but one always has an opportunity to change  on how they think about things.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

We (Australia) haven't been having riots, demolishing of monuments, police teargassing our people, or military moving in to maintain peace.  So, maybe a bit more divided than Australia presently.  But thanks for the invite.  Revisiting the US is on my to do list, but there are also lots of places I would like to visit in between as well.  Maybe in a few years when international travel is once again permitted.

Great social distancing (lol). BTW, They defied orders and there was violence and other problems just not as bad as in the US. 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jun/06/australian-black-lives-matter-protests-tens-of-thousands-demand-end-to-indigenous-deaths-in-custody

When darkness comes your people also get violent. Your news does a better job of hiding it but it can be found.

 As far as to the degree of violence and damage i agree there is little comparison but its there. Check this out...

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/what-really-happened-at-central-on-the-night-of-black-lives-matter-rally-20200611-p551ov.html

Of course you can always blame it on police handling but i don't think that was the problem.

And you do have riots in Austrailia just not on this particular subject matter of BLM. 

In 2019 you had riots ... https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/activists-and-police-clash-outside-mining-conference-in-melbourne/video/7816ed69096e10c9b9daa8fdd1156c23  and your people are also very capable of being violent. All countries have divisions, perhaps not always on the same subjects or to the same level of violence but never-the-less much division exists. I would not throw stones.

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

The poor are a very small section of society?  Currently, 18% of all children in the United States — nearly 13 million kids total — are living in poverty.  I don't consider that a 'small section' of society (and just because it isn't much different to Australia doesn't make it right).  And whilst I don't doubt that generally the US people are generous, simply getting the basics in life doesn't help people move states to live somewhere that is more agreeable to them (less racist or one that chooses not to glorify racist figures), which is what we were talking about.

Come on Paul... that term is relative. Our poor are rich in comparison to what is considered poor in other countries. Why do you think people flock here and sneak in? We have school programs to feed children who don't get fed at home from parent neglect or inability to provide. The parents  are eligible for welfare. Some use it for drugs and other non-necessities. You can't believe all the statistics you read. Poverty is relative. I was raised in poverty according to numbers back then and we didn't have much meat or nice housing but it was kept clean and we had food and 2nd hand clothes, no name brand sneakers, or phones,  or TV, etc. and my wife didn't even have inside toilets or running water or washing machines.  In fact, we didn't know we were poor. I don't call that poverty. Today the poverty line for a family of four with two children for that 18% figure is $24, 339 . That may be US poverty but its workable and better than we had it. Our government  even provides  free cell phones to families who can't afford it and free dental and health clinics which brings their equivalent pay to more with no income tax..   There is plenty of thrift stores for like new used clothing for near nothing.  13 million kids poor? No Paul . My first job was 25 cents an hour and i managed to save 10% and continued to do the same as wages grew. This is a land of opportunity that was not meant to be a socialist nation but we are slowly going that direction because some people don't understand that for many of us it takes sacrifice now to work harder and smarter and save to get ahead and out of their situation in the future.

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

So just avoid the town square or other high-profile parts of the city such monuments are graced with?  I would suggest it's not the 'looking' at such a tribute that offends one but rather it is the thought process that went behind its installation and continued presence, that has many people saying its time has come.

There is an easier way. Paul, just get over it. Change your thoughts and the offense goes away.🙂

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

Quite divided thought it would seem based on the political opinions shared.

No more than Australia. We just have 10 times the population and a whole lot more of crowed  diversity. Heck ,  the newspapers make it sound alot worse than it is. They prey on the negative. Your welcome to come visit and see for yourself. I'll even provide a place for you to stay at no charge though you could help me mow the lawn if your up to it. I'll even throw in some golf.

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

The great diversity or the overwhelming majority?  Whites are the overwhelming majority so it isn't unreasonable to expect that their views may carry more weight in general than the minority.  Poor people can't just up and move if they don't like it.  Other people for various reasons (employment, family etc) can't just up and move even though they see oppression and racism around them.  I just don't think it is as simple as you make it out to be.

Let's not get racist Paul. 🙂 We are all Americans here except for the illegals. I don't see color.

With all our welfare and government programs and great opportunities for those willing to take it, the poor are a very small section of society and the problem isn't for lack of opportunity or government programs. Sure , some fall through the crack but we are a generous nation of people and anyone lacking the basics can get it free if they are willing. We have church outreaches, food kitchens, treat all emergencies free in our hospitals and some free clinics if you have no money. One does have to be able to find the social services one needs but they are here. I am not saying i have the answer for all the reasons for there being poor people but there are answers and solutions and government isn't a very effective one in my opinion. People here are basically good and generous and do help less fortunate ones but that doesn't usually make the evening news. 

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

It's nice that you are able to move to and live in a state that best reflect your views and understanding of things. It would be nice if everyone could do that without too much hardship.

I agree that there is a limit to what the feds can legislate and do legally on the state level, & some of this is good and sometimes creates a relevant balance.

However, the precedent that the President sets is also important. The leadership that the President gives and models can carry real weight and influence, whether or not he/she is enacting or directing the laws on the state levels.

Elen, you may be right . For me, the president is not perfect but neither am i. I will not assume that i know what it is like to walk in his shoes and deal with the clientele that make up the rest of government and the slanted new media controlled by powerful people. We all live in the same country  but with a myriad of views, different perspectives. It's a wonder with so many congressmen and woman and senator that anything  gets done at that level. I am in awe over it. It's like over 400 cooks in the kitchen trying to determine which recipe for supper is best. 🙂

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Thing is, if organizations and groups and individuals in my area are not following the guidelines, they are not just affecting themselves and putting themselves at risk. They are spreading this thing, this covid, all over my community and my neighborhood. Why can't they be considerate and conscientious? This is just one year out of people's lives where they need to do things differently. It's not the end of the world, (hopfully) if they can't go out and party and socialize for one whole year.

Why can't they? Because they can't help being who they are at this moment in time. It is what it is. One can set an example but otherwise each of us ultimately has to want to change and much of the time suffering in the only catalyst for that change. Life is in my view all about personal choices and consequences and we can only make our own.

It's easy to criticize, judge, and point fingers at things or people we have limited knowledge of or are viewing from a limited perspective through a dark lens. I hope and pray for the best and do what is in my power and given talent to do and leave the rest to that which is All in All. I refuse to allow the things of this world to rob my given peace and joy and as the prayer goes " God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

7 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

What would you do if there was nothing but a topless beach near you? You'd have to deal with it or not go.

One could actually look at that statue as a form of hate speech, and possibly even a form of inciting a riot.

I do appreciate it's artistry, but when good art is used to promote that kind of negative thing, it does bother me.

Beaches cater to the majority of people. Topless ones  are usually segregated off so you can go to the regular beach instead. In the US, if there is a topless beach there will also be a non-topless beach. Choose your poison.

One could look at anything and have their own  opinion concerning it.  Change your thinking and the hate goes away.

Agreed it may bother you but tastes differ, you are responsible for your own negativity in my view.

7 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I agree with talking things out, and getting down to what the problems really are, even if they are hard to look at.

Yes, we have common ground here. I am all for that. Too bad some have to resort to more violent means than that.

7 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I've always felt pretty good about this country's disaster relief programs.

Perhaps people, and the government, should look at what they have and haven't done to enable people to recover from natural disasters on their own, or to enable or prevent elderly widows to be able to maintain and provide for themselves in their later years.

I see this happening today. I've know a good number of older women who lose out in hard and tragic ways once their husband dies. They end up below the poverty level and working minimum-wage jobs with no insurance, all the while being over 50, sometimes over 70 or 80. I've seen this time and time again. However if the wife were to pass on first, the husband is just fine and doesn't have to change a thing, doesn't have to sell his home, or get a crummy job. He can be and stay retired and not worry about food or medication or how he is ever going to live out his last days.

I like the Davy Crockett song, but I disagree with him here and with Mr. Bunce too. I think they are wrong.

I think it is up to the charity of individuals rather than government to do some of what you mention. I take it as a personal responsibility to do both for myself, family and for others. I can't control what other people do but i have done my best to provide for my family and others i have never met by sacrificing when i was younger so that i could have later in life to help and to leave my family with more than adequate resources to not suffer from my passing. I would encourage young people not to live as if there is no tomorrow and do the same. But if not,  that is their business and consequences come and hopefully they learn before it is too late. I am not for government bailouts as that in my view breeds corruption among those who have been given power over our tax money and funds that were supposed to be limited by our constitution. I do not prefer socialism on a grand scale. Some social programs like Social Security seem to be needed because personal discipline in saving for the future in often lacking in many. SS is poverty wages for those who did not prepare for retirement but at least they won't starve for food and shelter if they are willing to move to more affordable accommodations..

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

The Mark examples?  What, the single story where Jesus likens the gentile woman to a dog?  What other Markan examples are you drawing on to conclude an emphasis on a global mission being in accordance with Jesus' teaching?  And in our earlier sources of Mark there was no command to preach the gospel to the world.  This seems to be a later edition.  I wonder why.

You have to read it in context with Mathew 15. We see in this passage that Jesus does not in fact call the Gentile woman “a dog” or even “a little dog.”  Rather, He compares the situation of conflicting needs to the situation of hungry children sitting at a food-laden table with hungry little dogs underneath, and says that the children at the table must be fed first—to explain why He cannot accompany her to her home.  His willingness to grant her second and amended request shows His great love for her, and for all the children of men.  That love even bridged the gap between Jew and Gentile, giving to the Canaanite woman in advance what would later come to all the Gentiles of the world.

Also the Roman Centurion was not a Jew and he granted his wish. 

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

All men meaning all Jews.  That's how they were referring to God's people.

Perhaps your definition of all?  Read the Greek and the rest of the Gospels  and you might get a better understanding of what was meant. I guess you think when he said all the world he only meant all of Israel even though they are 2 different Greek words! 😄

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

I disagree.  I think one has to try and thread that together rather than just accept the relatively obvious - Jesus wasn't interested in preaching to the gentiles.

Disagreement is okay. But the fact is his mission was to the Jews but both in parables and in other quotations he asked his followers to go into all the world with the gospel. Unless of course you want to cherry pick and assume you know Jesus and his plan. 🙂

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

I agree.  It seems to me though that the argument for Jesus outreaching to all is taken out of context wherever it is considered (later endings to Mark, calling a gentile woman a dog actually meaning the Kingdom was equally for them, etc).

With all the good works he did it is and his follow through on the 2 recorded Gentile incidents and the context of the word "little dog" from the Greek you might understand he wasn't trying to offend her but had othger plans at the time but after seeing her persistence and faith granted her wish.

11 hours ago, PaulS said:

I don't find that at all, but I can see how others do, particularly if they view Christianity through a Pauline lens, which I think has long been the 'classical' take on Jesus and Christianity.

The parable can (probably should) be read as the religious Jews being spurned and instead, the 'lesser' of God's people being invited.  This seems to be a theme of Jesus' ministry and is further pointed out in Luke where the same parable has the invitation being extended particularly to the "poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame", evidencing explicit concern for the "poor and the outcasts", again, more aligned with what we understand of Jesus compared to him inviting the gentiles.

Well, what kind of God wouldn't include everyone! 🙂 The OT shows a mixed multitude coming out of Egypt with the Jews. The word Gentile is not an original Hebrew or Greek word. It is not a blood line.

Gentile (from Latin gentilis 'of or belonging to the same people or nation',

Yes, Jesus was a Jew and his ministry was focused on the Jews . However this did not exclude Gentiles with faith as in the Mark and Mathew examples. All the Gospels include an emphasis on global mission not just Israel. That is plain to see from reading all 4 Gospels. Why else would he command his people to preach the gospel to all the world.

Mathew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15 and John 1 says "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe." and John 3:16  For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. The book of John is filled with quotes by Jesus like "whosoever believeth in me"

Even excluding all of Paul's letters, more quotes of Jesus plus the OT show that Jesus came for all regardless of his ministry focus on the Jews. 

PS : If you use the writings to argue your point . You must use them all in context or none at all. I have excluded Pauline writings as a courtesy. 😄

5 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Jesus may have interacted with non-Jews - I don't imagine that he lived in a bubble.  But just because he interacted with them, or even had sympathy for them, doesn't mean he was inviting them into the Kingdom.  He simply doesn't according to the NT - ever.

I think you will find that Jesus used a parable to indicate the gentiles were to be included in the kingdom. In fact many of the Jews were left out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Great_Banquet

3 minutes ago, thormas said:

Even with the separation of powers which we have always had: it's still called Leadership. If the trumpeter 'said' we should all do this, if he modeled it, if he got the Congress behind him as a show of solidarity and if got on the phone with Governors  - we would have nearly if not complete nation wide compliance.

Leadership .............however we are rudderless.

If it impacts the entire nation, the nation needs to respond together............sadly the trumpeter only considers what impacts him.

 

Speak for yourself!  You may be rudderless .. but each man/woman has their own rudder and a mind to chart their own course within the limits of the law.