tariki

Could I just quote again from Merton and then ask another question........ The spiritual life is something that people worry about when they are so busy with something else they think they ought to be spiritual. Spiritual life is guilt. Up here in the woods is seen the New Testament: that is to say, the wind comes through the trees and you breathe it. The speech of God is silence.......everything else is fiction, half-hiding the truth it tries to reveal.......we are travellers from the half-world of language into solitude and infinity..... What part does "doctrine" play in the insights of Merton here? Can their reality be realised in a human heart without any "doctrine" at all? Are some doctrines more able to bring such to reality to a human heart? If so, which? Or is Merton wrong. Are there "formulas" ? Thank you

Maybe that guy got lost and was never heard of again. Unfortunately for you, you have unknowingly triggered more tariki waffle......... If you want to find satisfactory formulas you had better deal with things that can be fitted into a formula. The vocation to seek God is not one of them. Nor is existence. Nor is the spirit of man. (Merton) There is an affirmation of the world that is nothing but ruin and loss. There is a renunciation of the world that finds and saves man in his own home, which is God's world. In any event, the "way" of Chuang Tzu is mysterious because it is so simple that it can get along without being a way at all. Least of all is it a "way out." Chuang Tzu would have agreed with St John of the Cross, that you enter upon this kind of way when you leave all ways and, in some sense, get lost. (Merton, from "A Note to the Reader" in "The Way of Chuang Tzu") And St John of the Cross himself, "If we wish to be sure of the road we tread on, we should close our eyes and walk in the dark" And back to Merton........."The road to joy, which is mysteriously revealed to us without our exactly realising it" For me, on my own Pure Land path, "made to become so of itself" purely as a result of the surrender to grace. For me, in a Christian context......."faith not works". The "works" follow from faith, made to become so of themselves. If we claim the works they "stink in God's nostrils".......a lovely phrase! He is a jealous God.

Thanks Joseph and Steve. Just to say that I have the Suzuki book and find the section devoted to the Pure Land myokonin Saichi inspirational. Steve, As I see it you eventually imply that anyone can leap from the raft before the other shore is reached. Oh yes, yes indeed! I'm hanging on tight. Saichi says "Gratitude is all a lie.....there is nothing the matter with one". For the moment I will continue to give thanks for all things.

There was a Buddhist Theravada monk who said that "at the moment of emancipation, effort falls away, having reached the end of its scope" Reflecting upon the "scope of effort" has been rewarding for me, affecting as it does trying to understand the relationship between "faith" and "works" in the Christian Tradition. I would like to open a thread that sought to reflect upon the scope of Doctrines. One of the most famous of all Buddhist parables, as found in the foundational texts of Theravada, is the Parable of the Raft. The meaning is that the Buddhist teachings, in all their scope, are for "passing over, not for grasping". Thinking along those lines I would like to weave my way through a few Quotes from a Christian deeply interested in Buddhism, Thomas Merton. Not interested merely in an academic sense, but as a practice. He often spent time in the woods and in his Hermitage in Zen meditation. Here is the first quote, written by Merton in a letter before he entered the monastic community........ But it certainly is a wonderful thing to wake up suddenly in the solitude of the woods and look up at the sky and see the utter nonsense of everything, including all the solemn stuff given out by professional asses about the spiritual life: and simply to burst out laughing, and laugh and laugh, with the sky and the trees because God is not in words, and not in systems, and not in liturgical movements, and not in "contemplation" with a big C, or in asceticism or in anything like that, not even in the apostolate. Certainly not in books. I can go on writing them, for all that, but one might as well make paper airplanes out of the whole lot. This was before he took a vow of obedience to the authority of the Church and its representatives which he took very seriously all his life. I believe the words and their meaning stayed with him to the end, though evolving. Here is a second quote, this concerning his meeting with D T Suzuki, written long after his entry into the monastic community....... "I did feel that I was speaking to someone who, in a tradition completely different from my own, had matured, had become complete and found his way. One cannot understand Buddhism until one meets it in this existential manner, in a person in whom it is alive. Then there is no longer a problem of understanding doctrines that cannot help being a bit exotic for a Westerner, but only a question of appreciating a value that is self-evident." (My own emphasis) I will not seek to direct anyone. For me the relevance to the subject of the thread is also "self-evident". Let me move on to a letter written by Merton to the vary same man, in the 1960's.......... I want to speak for this Western world.................which has in past centuries broken in upon you and brought you our own confusion, our own alienation, our own decrepitude, our lack of culture, our lack of faith...........If I wept until the end of the world, I could not signify enough of what this tragedy means. If only we had thought of coming to you to learn something..............If only we had thought of coming to you and loving you for what you are in yourselves, instead of trying to make you over into our own image and likeness. For me it is clearly evident that you and I have in common and share most intimately precisely that which, in the eyes of conventional Westerners, would seem to separate us. The fact that you are a Zen Buddhist and I am a Christian monk, far from separating us, makes us most like one another. How many centuries is it going to take for people to discover this fact?...... Once again, for me the relevance is self-evident. A human being who had been formed and raised within doctrines and teachings alien to Merton, not of his own Church, is nevertheless seen as a true brother with no reservations. And he asks how long...........how long...........how long.................... The final quote (gasps of relief all around) is of a well known and oft quoted mystical experience of Merton when in Asia, very near in time to when he died. The vicar general, shying away from "paganism," hangs back and sits under a tree reading the guidebook. I am able to approach the Buddhas barefoot and undisturbed, my feet in wet grass, wet sand. Then the silence of the extraordinary faces. The great smiles. Huge and yet subtle. Filled with every possibility, questioning nothing, knowing everything, rejecting nothing, the peace not of emotional resignation but of Madhyamika, of sunyata, that has seen through every question without trying to discredit anyone or anything - without refutation - without establishing some other argument. For the doctrinaire, the mind that needs well-established positions, such peace, such silence, can be frightening. I was knocked over with a rush of relief and thankfulness at the obvious clarity of the figures.................looking (at them) I was suddenly, almost forcibly, jerked clean out of the habitual, half-tied vision of things, and an inner clearness, clarity, as if exploding from the rocks themselves, became evident and obvious. The queer evidence of the reclining figure, the smile, the sad smile of Ananda standing with arms folded.....The thing about all this is that there is no puzzle, no problem, and really no "mystery". All problems are resolved and everything is clear, simply because what matters is clear. The rock, all matter, all life, is charged with dharmakaya.....everything is emptiness and everything is compassion. How do others see the scope of doctrines, the importance of "correct" beliefs", the need for certain "rites" and "rituals"? It seems to me here that Merton has indeed evolved from his first insight regarding "paper airplanes". Yes, he continued to celebrate the Catholic Mass right to the end. Yet should such should be seen in the light of his insights expressed here? Thanks.

Apparently there are already Unisex Toilets, marked as such by both and female "stick figures". As I see it, for the moment there is no reason to have anything other than Male, Female and Unisex. With such choice, surely all can feel accomodated and "comfortable"? Then who knows just what the future will bring.

As I see it the "death of God" is only applicable to our Western culture as it has developed over the past couple of centuries. That is, the idea of some singular transcendent being who has inspired a particular book informing us of all His requirements of us and dictated to us what our morality should be etc etc (just fill in your own version........ ) has gradually become seriously questioned by most educated people. We can question such "education" or point out that such a picture of God was never that of the mystics, but anyway, such is the "death of God". To many nowadays such a transcendent being is beyond our imagination or belief. Again as I see it, yes, the Eastern religions have been free of such a God who thus has no need to die in our imaginations or sense of the divine. There are many correlations between many expressions of the eastern faiths and what could be called the deeper expressions of the Christian Faith, particularly the mystics - such names as Meister Eckhart, St John of the Cross. Therefore, as I see, many eastern thought forms would be of help to those struggling to cope with the death of God as they ( i..e., those eastern thought forms ) begin and end with the divine/reality as the ground of being, not A being. I have no problem with using the word divine. Personally I do not distinguish between sacred/secular, spiritual/natural etc etc but divine does as some sort of word in conversation. Hopefully its not too confusing. I do think that "truth" can only be lived, not thought as such, therefore "beyond all categories of thought" will do. For me the truth is not a creed. The divine is freedom itself, We can share it and express it. As the "eastern" way has it, wu wei, Living and acting spontaneously according to and in response to the moment; or in Pure Land terminology, being made to become so of itself. Just to add regarding Hinduism, I would be unable to recognise it from the description you say you have heard.

Hi again, thanks for the link to the Peter Watson "Tale of two titles" blog. Interesting that there he spoke of the "latest theology" that refers to God as being undefinable. For me this would seem to indicate some sort of hole in Peter Watsons knowledge ( I won't mention the many holes in my own........ ) in as much as the the undefinability of God runs through all religion in diverse ways from the very beginnings. That said, Peter Watson says in the introduction that "neither God nor the Devil has all the best tunes" and that his book could well be called "The Age of Everything". He also indicates that he will concentrate upon those who see the present situation as offering opportunity and have greeted it with enthusiasm, rather then those who have ended up wringing their hands in some sort of insular and ultimately negative despair. At times in the book we were asked to note certain things as being important to take on board and at the time I remember seeing such as Peter Watson expressing a personal view, indeed a preference. Whatever, for me the book was positive and life affirming. Getting back to "holes", existent or otherwise, the lack of any link with "eastern thought" and its influence on the modern "western mind" was apparent. The books of Harry Oldmeadow can fill such a gap, particularly "Journey's East". Again, Peter Watson at no point addresses the deeper Christian Incarnational theologies wherein the Divine must needs "die" in order for us to live - I did touch on this before and in fact there is a review of the book on Amazon that speaks well of this (see that of Leslie C) Personally I have no interest in dualisms of atheist/theist or whatever. Reality-as-is is greater than all our division and can reveal itself to all within our own uniqueness. Using labels can corrupt our judgement. As I see it Thanks Derek

Hi Larry, just to say first that I prefer the garden - any garden - to a church. Not really totally comfortable with so called "places of worship" for a variety of reasons. So I sympathise. But for me it is experience of the divine (or whatever) that is the heart of our journey and when looking towards "experience" there is, as many have noted, an astonishing conformity in the deepest impulses of our humanity when seeking and knowing the divine. Yet such experience must needs express itself according to all the various times and cultures. The "letter kills but the spirit gives life" but the letter remains of necessity. Again, I think it is good to seek "our" enlightenment rather then my "own". It is "us" not "me". Therefore it is good to be able to acknowledge and recognise all the various expressions of worship, and perhaps join in........even if I am more comfortable in a garden... All the best Derek

Hi Joseph, yes, it was the quotes at the front that drew me in - always one for a good quote...I had tried a couple of Peter Watson's books before and given up on them so downloaded The Age of Nothing with some trepidation. I have seperate books for contemplation and reflection, usually of an "eastern" flavour, and often just one sentence is enough. Thanks for your poem.......part of what Peter Watson's book was about is the potential release of creativity when "father figures" disappear and we turn our eyes and hearts towards each other. Thanks Derek

Hi, as I implied, for me the book is mistitled. Whether "atheists" or "nothing", such titles point to - or at least imply - some sort of negativity, perhaps desperation, as people whose ability (or even wish) to believe in God has gone, reach out for virtually ANYTHING to fill the gap. The simple idea, articulated here in diverse people, that the gap is felt more as a welcome release from a transcendent purpose imposed upon us from above, leaving us free to find our own meaning in the world around us, is left to those who read the book - or not..... And I would emphasise "find" , with all its implications. "Find", not "imagine", "find", not "enter each to their own subjective world" where communion with others is a hopeless fantasy. Peter Watson's book gave many examples of those who had found and articulated such meanings and in doing so have bridged the gap between self and other. I found that inspiring. For me, in Christian terms, it is incarnational. Our relationships can be between others and ourselves, between ourselves and this world, here and now, not between our private selves and "God". The latter is what can be alienating, often pointing us towards a future world and "reward" and inevitably creating conflict between all the various idols of the mind projected onto heaven. Yes, dense at times, but then I just blip over passages that are way over my head. Yet I found other passages, particularly on James Joyce and the purpose and potential of poetry in general, enlightening. And much more. Anyway, thanks for your interest. Derek

I have just finished reading "The Age of Nothing" by Peter Watson, sub-titled "How we have sought to live since the death of God". I read much of this when surrounded by grandchildren. They often sought to play "horsey" on Grandad's knee, always insisting upon a high fence so that poor old grandad had to lift them high at full gallop as they wooped for joy. The book proved a good escape at times. Anyway, the death referred to in the sub-title was announced by Nietzsche, via Zarathustra, in the nineteenth century and though the death seems to have passed unnoticed by the various Fundamentalists, it has been taken on board by many since. I have read bits and pieces on and by Nietzsche and think he has come in for some unwarranted criticism. Here, in this book, it seems to be implied/assumed that he was an ardent nationalist and even anti semitic, this simply because he is often seen as some sort of precursor to the advent of the Third Reich. - the Nazis and Hitler.The whole thing is muddied by the sister of Nietzsche, who apparently was both those things and who played around with his writings after his death for her own purposes and according to her own limited intelligence and understanding. Whatever the truth, my own reading has told me that Nietzsche would have been dismayed and shocked by Hitler and all he stood for. But I drift from my theme, the "death" of God. G K Chesterton has said that if we do not believe in God we will believe in anything, which seems to imply that "non-believers" will always be flippant and perhaps lacking in any genuine commitment to anything. This book, the "Age of Nothing", gives the lie to any such implication. A better title for the book would be "Life After God", which would have none of the unnecessary overtones of its actual title, which seems to suggest at least a whiff of nihilism. Nothing could be further from the truth. The life that has been found, I have to say, seems to me to be often profound, deep and life affirming in ways that that "old time religion", with God in His heaven, more often than not fell short of. This is all in keeping with Meister Eckhart, who prayed to God to free him from God, and of the spirituality suggested by certain passages of the NT, that he has died that we might live; from God conceived as a being to the divine as the ground of being. The life found by so many referenced here, poets, authors, philosophers and more, makes for interesting, even inspiring reading. The potential of poetry to be a means of true communion between people is finely addressed. In fact the capacity for those who would seek true life amid the small things of existence runs throughout. More "down to earth" and not looking up to the heavens for inspiration. Rather looking across at those we share the earth with. Christians might well say "incarnational", those on the zen side "chop wood, carry water". The book is a bit uneven at times. Some of the "life" found is questionable. Yet all in all a good book, offering much to ponder. I found myself reading passages more than once and God willing ( ) will reread the whole book at some time.

Being born and bred in the UK perhaps my preferences are really if no consequence. But I voted for Hilary Clinton. At risk if controversy (!) the race for the White House makes me think back to an old Peanuts cartoon where Charlie Brown plays the "nations number one" hit song to Linus. After listening, Linus just says "the nations in bad shape". Well, every time I hear the words of Mr Trump and realise that many support him I think..........

Hi Annie Yes, another drop byer here...... Discussion forums of all shapes and sizes have been a blessing for me - from my very first hesitant post on an old Tricycle Forum about twenty years ago up until now. From being someone afraid to say boo to a goose I am now able to express myself as I wish without fear.......which is good with a Father of the Bride speech coming up fast! After time spent on Buddhist Forums, Agnostic Forums, Secular Forums, Atheist Forums, Christian Forums, Islamic Forums, Interfaith Forms (Some might have slipped my mind) I have now virtually retired. There is really little I want or feel the need to say and like Paul has also said, I am not "searching" anymore. What is left of me is resting contentedly in this rather strange world of ours which we need to love and have mercy towards no matter the circumstance. Thanks Derek

Thanks Soma. Nice to hear stories that speak of diversity. The beauty of difference. Its potential for healing is not always appreciated. The Two-Headed Calf Tomorrow when the farm boys find this freak of nature, they will wrap his body in newspaper and carry him to the museum. But tonight he is alive and in the north field with his mother. It is a perfect summer evening: the moon rising over the orchard, the wind in the grass. And as he stares into the sky, there are twice as many stars as usual. Laura Gilpin

Thanks Soma for your stories and memories. Its good to hear the stories of others. Hearing the story they cease to be "others". I was reading a novel, "The Sorrow of War" by Boa Ninh, a North Vietnamese soldier. The novel was partly biographical. Ninh's story was of his family and his sweetheart left behind when he was called up to the army. The faceless soldier of the Vietcong ( the "enemy" ) was replaced by a human being. Another story was of a war correspondant who covered the Middle East, who told of the childhood of many Afghani's, the way they were forced to live during the 16 years of occupation by the Soviet forces, locked into refugee camps with minimal resources, no entertainment or mental stimulation but the cries of Mullahs and the words of the Koran."Just where did the Taliban come from, what is their story?". Imagine such a childhood. It could have been different. Maybe we need to listen to each others stories in order to change them. And our own.

Those buddhas seem to get everywhere. Thanks Soma for your own story and memories. Jogged my own braincells, about bombs and germans, a story my grandmother always told ( perhaps far too often ) Once when the air-raid siren went and the whole family were running for the shelter at the bottom of the garden, Grandad stopped and began to run back into the house. "Hey, come on back, where are you going?" To which grandad shouted "I've forgotten my false teeth". Grandma cried out "Don't be daft, they're dropping bombs not sandwiches!" Another connection - with hand-me-downs I suppose - was a biography of a Jewish guy who was mournng the death of his father. He was reading from the Jewish Prayer Book which was kept on the rostrum in the synagogue for funeral recitations. Though this guy had no particular faith as such he was deeply moved by the sheer wear and tear of the prayer book, held by so many hands over the years, each pair of hands having their very own story of grief and loss and words to say. I remember writing about this once on a Buddhist Forum, when the "impermanence of all things" was part of the thread. I remember thinking then about the relative permanence of the book, the more worn its pages the more the pages had to tell. About how words and doctrines have their own impermanence and limited scope. Fitting at some times but not in others. Thanks Derek

Hi Joseph, Oxfam stores just accept donations. Charity stores are a growth industry in the UK. There are over 10 in my home town, involving Hospices, child charities, heart etc etc. Up until just a few years ago the shops always had a slighly dowdy look to them but nowadays their appearance differs little from any other store. A lot of time is often spent dressing the windows; the Christmas window of a store close to my home was worth taking a photo of. And bargains galore! The Charity store has become a great base for many forms of recycling. My little grandson looks great in his very cheap trousers, no doubt worn by another little urchin not long ago! Still, cheap is relative. When buying for my own daughter many years ago at a small village rummage sale, we managed to get five dresses for 10 pence. She looked beautiful in one of them and we had a studio photo taken with her wearing it. Derek

I was recently reading a small book about Shinran, one of the ancient (12th century) fathers of Pure Land Buddhism. Apparently Shinran wrote that if we wished to study a spiritual path we needed to set ourselves apart and stick our head in a book (not quite the language he used, but near enough) whereas if we wished to actually walk the path, then there was no better place to start than where we found ourselves NOW. In fact, no other place to start. Buddhism, in some of its manifestations, also claims that a million Buddha's can be found in just one flower, and that to see the Buddha is to see the Dharma (truth/reality) So reality is everywhere, here and now, not some place other or beyond. Anyway, flying somewhat in the face of such musing, I have my own little paradise which often stands out as special. Well, it sure beats sitting in a dentists chair. It is the Record Department of my local Oxfam Store, where I spend every Tuesday afternoon. It has one of the biggest collections of vinyl records in the UK, as well as CD's and DVD'S, sheet music and other paraphernalia. I once picked up an old guitar there for a few pounds, the one I get out when the grandchildren invade our home, the one they can accidentally knock over or attempt to play as if a cello, leaving more expensive models safe. Yes, it is paradise. I take along a few of my own CD's, and play them to my hearts content. I also take along my Kindle eReader. Occasionally a customer comes in and rudely interrupts my realm of peace and joy.......but that is a small price to pay. Yet many of the customers have a story to tell, or a point of view to discuss, even an opinion on the music playing (like "what the hell is THAT?") I've passed many a happy hour reminiscing about the Sixties, or the early career of Jerry Lee Lewis, and learnt a lot. I've learnt that all vinyl records are of a particular pressing, much like particular editions of books - there are those willing to pay a lot for the earliest pressing of a particular pressing. For me I just concentrate on the music itself, but each to their own. Recently an old guy came in, bent over a little, perhaps with arthritis. He had the look of someone who had never had a life. ( Oh yes, I can be very judgemental at times. ) He shuffled around the stock for quite a while, picking and choosing, and eventually came over and rudely interrupted my peace by wishing to purchase a couple of vinyl singles. I read out the label of one of the singles he had chosen, an old Fifties number. "Yes, I'll enjoy strumming along to that. I used to play along to it in my younger days" the old guy said, then revealed that he owned two Stratocasters and two Les Pauls. Well, you never can tell. I asked him if he had ever played in a group and he told me that he had never been able to play in public, just too shy. Which is rather sad, yet in many ways I am able to empathsise. Well, maybe enough for now.

Steve, my apologies for missing your last post. I received an email informing me that a post of my own had been quoted, clicked the link and responded,,,,,,,,,and completely missed your own which had been above. Anyway, did I pounce? Apologies again if I did. As you imply, context is everything. As I see it, much - if not everything - comes down to our capacity for empathy, for mercy, for love and compassion, both towards ourselves and others. It seems that such are often beyond our knowledge and grasp of "higher" levels of thought, not to mention beyond any allegiance to a particular belief system. We are obviously on the same page, and again as far as "illusory" is concerned. Many seem to like there "isms" and "ologies", not to mention "ainities", creating divisions were there are none. Thanks Derek

You think YOU have problems! Anyway, there is a Buddhist Dictionary that tells us that the central and unique concept/teaching in Buddhism is "anatta" - not-self, and that not understanding this means not being able to understanding anything. And as far as Buddhism is concerned, "understanding" means experience of, not conceptual or intellectual grasp. (otherwise, how could a little child ever lead them?) Nevertheless, seeking some sort of conceptual grasp, it needs to be asked just HOW anything can BE transcendent when there is no self to transcend. The totality just IS. As said above, Buddhism - and I would say ANY faith worth its salt - is concerned with experience rather than just the affirmation of creeds or belief in them. Buddhism seeks to teach a path that leads to the replication of the Buddha's experience beneath the Bodhi Tree. Getting back to labels, as I see it ALL words are labels and are liable - or have the potential - to mislead, simply because they will always be only a part of reality, and Reality cannot speak of itself. A knife cannot cut itself. Therefore all treading of the path involves being content with paradox. I remember many moons ago (or as my dear little Grandchild would say, "many sleeps ago") asking on a Buddhist Forum:- in the light of anatta, not-self, just WHO is it that walks the path? This in relation to the oft quoted words, "Buddha's only point the way, each has to walk the path themselves". The answers I got became messy! Which is the nature of the case, each of us being unique. In the Christian tradition Thomas Merton speaks of the very same paradox in theistic language.........how far have I to go to find You in whom I have already arrived My own path involves and revolves around trust and "unknowing" - to be honest, far more so than speaking of non-dualism and suchlike. But often on various forums when I seek to tell it like it is FOR ME I hear such responses as "hocus pocus" and "mumbo jumbo". So I try to fall in line. Thanks Derek

Just to say that as far as I can understand it, non-dualism has no opposite. Both dualism and pluralism "exist" within Reality-as-is. Well, I came back to being Dick.......very confusing for a Derek. Thanks

Thanks Steve, Its interesting to link Aristotle with Buddhist thought. Rather than contrast the so called "east" and "west" many are now seeing an underlying unity. I was recently reading about certain pre-socratic Greeks whose writings sounded very "zen-like", Whether or not the word "higher" can be applied to such thinking is a moot point, at least if you spend as much time as I do playing Candy Crush. "All is illusory, and simply the magical display of the primordial ground" ? Not really happy with that. For me Reality is Reality. The word "iillusory" seems inappropriate within non-dualism, seeming to point to a non-illusory realm elsewhere. I'm more comfortable with those such as D T Suzuki who speak of becoming once again the Tom, Dicks or Harrys we have always been. Thanks Derek

Hi Romansh, Well, I DID ask the question! No idea just what Brownian motion is.........so may well Google it to get some kind of definitive answer when I can find the time. Yes, I too often try to follow Stephen Batchelor's "ramblings" and usually find them easier to follow than most explicit creeds and theologies - his book "Living with the Devil" was/is a worthwhile ramble to get lost in. At least, I thought so. Myself, I was linking the blog to the other recent Thread on this Forum, re Identify crisis and lables etc etc, and circular motion rather then "progression", and finding some sort of "rest" in knowing things for the first time ( within the circle ) rather than in seeking to climb ladders; seeing with new eyes rather than seeking new places. But alas, I ramble, which is what grandchildren do to you......... I would beware of all experts, except those who can change nappies one handed. I seem to remember Thomas Merton on the Middle Way - apparently NOT a third position between two extremes but a third position that transcends both. Maybe the word "position" is a misguiding label? There does seem to be "rebirth" and "reincarnation" and they are often confused or influence each other in our understanding with unfortunate consequences. I see "free will" as a red herring. Thanks

I found the following interesting, especially from my own "Progressive Buddhist" ( ) perspective. http://christophertitmussblog.org/there-are-religious-buddhists-who-claim-there-is-rebirth-there-are-secular-buddhists-who-claim-there-is-no-rebirth-are-they-extremists What exactly IS "progess" in the sense used on this Forum re "Progressive" ?

We'll be fighting in the streets With our children at our feet And the morals that they worship will be gone And the men who spurred us on Sit in judgment of all wrong They decide and the shotgun sings the song I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again The change, it had to come We knew it all along We were liberated from the fold, that's all And the world looks just the same And history ain't changed Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again No, no! I'll move myself and my family aside If we happen to be left half alive I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky Though I know that the hypnotized never lie Do ya? There's nothing in the streets Looks any different to me And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye And the parting on the left Are now parting on the right And the beards have all grown longer overnight I'll tip my hat to the new constitution Take a bow for the new revolution Smile and grin at the change all around Pick up my guitar and play Just like yesterday Then I'll get on my knees and pray We don't get fooled again Don't get fooled again No, no! Yeah! Meet the new boss Same as the old boss THE WHO "WON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN" (Play the music at your own discretion......... )