tariki

As I see it, this confuses faith and belief. For me they are complete opposites. Faith "lets go" while belief clings. Belief can be departmentalised. The most absurd beliefs can accompany the ability to function in any environment. Belief in God's love can even "live" alongside persecution of others. All part of a false self built up of accumulated beliefs, knowledge, self-justifications. "Using the faith card" to justify a belief is part of not seeing the difference between faith and belief. Faith for me is Trust. It permeates all. The ground from which all diversification issues, "empty" in itself. I do not seek to justify it.

Except for mad dogs and Englishmen perhaps. 😀

Hi Paul, I've found that it is the "not knowing" that is the truest guide. As is said in the Pure Land, the way of no-calculation where things are "made to become so of themselves". Or as it says in St Marks gospel:- "The earth brings forth fruit of herself". For me is a way of Trust, and strangely a trust that has no guarantees. Eckhart said:- "Nothing that knowledge can grasp or desire can want is God; where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness, and there God shines." So maybe you are becoming a Christian without knowing it. Life is full of surprises! Anyway, in keeping with the current threads and such, just a word on why in spite of not really liking labels at all, I prefer not to have the Christian label. It has been said often that in every particular can be found the universal. In fact James Joyce said it. A few scientists say it, when each single DNA cell can be used as a blueprint for the whole body. So as I see it, each of us, a "particular", is a "universal". Unique. Unrepeatable. Beyond price. The problem I see with many versions of Christianity is the claim that Jesus was a particular particular, that he was uniquely unique. Therefore "one way" and all the rest of it, the Inquisitions and bigotries that have haunted the faith. If we see this, then I would say we can begin to understand why the actual "message" of Jesus is secondary, why in fact no one can agree on exactly what it is or was. It is what is called The Eternal Word that is the heart, a "word" that speaks to each of us uniquely, as undividuals. Fortunately many people of faith are recognising now that "truth" - or whatever we wish to call it - circles Ultimate Reality ( "truth is 'one' sages call it by many names" ), it does not circle Christianity.

Hi John, I recently downloaded an audible version of Ulysses, quite cheap, and it is really good. A bit of Irish singing between chapters, and the various changes - between the dialogue of characters, stream of consciousness (internal monologue) and descriptive - are all spoken in various tones. The whole thing becomes easier to follow. (I await with eager anticipation the episode of Leopold Bloom breaking wind as an elegant lady passes by!) I have read Ulysses twice and the final "Yes!" of Molly Bloom after her long monologue at the end drew tears. Just like John Lennon when he climbed up a ladder at a Yoko Ono art exhibition, before he knew her, saw "yes" written on the ceiling and was enlivened. "If it had said 'no' I would have left" he said. Joyce once said, during the long battle to get the book past the censors, "If Ulysses is unfit to read then life is unfit to live." Oh yes, the hell sermon in "Portrait"......apparently it stayed with Joyce all his life, as well as the fear of thunder. As he wrote in Finnegans Wake:- bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner- ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk! 😀

Hi Paul, Dogen had a "breakthrough" himself when he was in training with others under a master in China. The guy beside him slumped and the master cried out:- "How dare you sleep when you are seeking to drop body and mind!" In the "eastern" ways and paths it all involves "emptiness", "beginner's mind" and suchlike, often dismissed as pure nihilism in some quarters.

All this is beginning to touch upon things being approached on another Forum. I spoke of it somewhere before, a forum devoted to Mental Health issues. Some tragic stories there and "mumbo jumbo" is of no help so I am strained to the limit. But being there is therapeutic for myself. But it does have a "Debating Chamber" where we can raise anything we like, and one guy (or gal, I'm not sure which) started a thread on how "Nihilism can save the planet". It has developed quite well, although I'm a little bit stymied by one guy who is strong on binary logic. Logic is not my strong point! But I was interested in the whole idea of "meaninglessness" as it is in nihilism and of how it relates to "eastern" ideas, particularly in zen and the thought of Dogen. I've long noticed that most things turn back upon themselves. Go far enough in one direction and you come back to where you started. I did read somewhere that given the bending of space, if we had a powerful enough telescope what we would see would be the back of our heads! Leaving that thought with you, I'd just say that according to Buddhism consciousness is the one thing that does not turn back upon itself. Which is suggestive. "All things are led by mind, created by mind" as the Dhammapada opens with. Well, enough waffle. Here is an excerpt from the book "Eihei Dogen:Mystical Realist" by Hee-Jin Kim:- To cast off the body-mind did not nullify historical and social existence so much as to put it into action so that it could be the self-creative and self-expressive embodiment of Buddha-nature. In being “cast off,” however, concrete human existence was fashioned in the mode of radical freedom—purposeless, goalless, objectless, and meaningless. Buddha-nature was not to be enfolded in, but was to unfold through, human activities and expressions. The meaning of existence was finally freed from and authenticated by its all-too-human conditions only if, and when, it lived co-eternally with ultimate meaninglessness.

Ah ha! Define "Amida"! That is where the trouble can start. 😎

Strangely I'm not really into "understanding", it is simply that I need Trust. Again perhaps strangely, my trust in a Reality of healing can (I find) live with the little verse of Rennyo:- Whether heading for the Pure Land Or heading for Hell All is in Amida's hands Namu-amida-butsu! It really is a letting go. Which opens up the next unfolding moment without preconditions, allowing it to be what it will be.

The sheer pace of this thread is putting my head in a spin 😀

Hi Nolose, to be honest, I'm more with those who distrust formulaes, systems, conclusions and definitions. I accept that definitions can assist and clarify debate but I sought Trust and found/find debate debilitating. Grace works in mysterious ways, often beyond our calculation. I trust in it. Thanks

Hi Paul, as I said before, seeking to explain how I see things, the "spirit of all truth" is not in the possession of any creed, but is simply part of the very fabric of Reality. As we are all unique, unrepeatable, human beings, whatever guidance we receive is unique to us. Although in my own words, the above is not some esoteric formulae, but simply that which many christians are recognising to be so, the Universal Christ. My own experience, which I must testify to, is that the "guidance" does not follow our own asking or seeking, but in a sense "finds us". Often we are guided in spite of our beliefs rather than because of them. It is all about being "surprised by joy". It is grace, gift. I bring fullness and satisfaction to the world, like rain that spreads its moisture everywhere. Eminent and lowly, superior and inferior, observers of precepts, violators of precepts, those fully endowed with proper demeanor, those not fully endowed, those of correct views, of erroneous views, of keen capacity, of dull capacity - I cause the Dharma rain to rain on all equally, never lax or neglectful. When all the various living beings hear my Law, they receive it according to their power, dwelling in their different environments..... ..The Law of the Buddhas is constantly of a single flavour, causing the many worlds to attain full satisfaction everywhere; by practicing gradually and stage by stage, all beings can gain the fruits of the way. (The Lotus Sutra, Parable of the Dharma Rain)

Hi Jimmy, I was objecting to your assertions and judgements of another, not ending debate. Thank you (I will leave when ready, and given my time now spent on another forum devoted to those with various mental health problems and finding such people more supportive and loving and caring than the average Christian.......well, I might well be ready fairly soon) All the best mate 🙂

Hi Jimmy, I was speaking of the "Holy Spirit" in the context of what I see as a "broken suspect belief system". Again, my post implied that there IS such a "spirit" in the sense of a Reality that is healing, and is "a vital ephemeral agent of awareness and healing" For me, Christ/Tao/Brahman/Allah/Logos are interchangeable. Sorry, I have no particular interest in defending myself against your assertions and judgements.

In a sense I see JimmyB as being on the right track. We've all been dealt our own cards, our own time and place, and we need to find our own "path" from out of that. Personally I have trust in Reality. I'm not seeking to argue for it, let alone "prove" it. I just have it. I see it as a product of my own seeking, yet paradoxically, ultimately, as pure gift. As I have said in other threads, and basically quoting from an authority on zen, that expression of the Dharma (Buddhism) developed and cannot be fully understood outside of a worldview that sees reality itself as a vital, ephemeral agent of awareness and healing. That authority goes on to speak of "the liberative qualities of spatiality and temporality". Without wishing to offend anyone, I have no interest in the "Holy Spirit" . That too, as PaulS has said, is simply extracting one thing from a broken, suspect belief system. But if Reality is healing, a heart seeking to be healed will find Reality "guiding" and supporting them. I have no answer to the crushing suffering of our world, but I must needs witness to my own life's experience and the opportunities I believe have been given. I just feel that any guidance received is at an individual level, unique to the individual. It is not from some "entity" seeking to communicate "one truth" that is part of some revelation of a transcendent Being.

Now, what was that Noel Coward song........ah yes, something about mad dogs and Englishmen...

That's the influence of those zen masters for you! In the Pure Land its more, "excuse me, but would you mind shoving it?" (Obviously, this could be simply because I am a refined English Gentleman) 🤪

😄

Here is a cut and paste from something I quoted/posted before, relevant here:- The dharma, can be discovered through the Buddhist tradition, but Buddhism is by no means the only source of dharma. I would define dharma as anything that awakens the enlightened mind and brings on the direct experience of selflessness. The teachings of Christ are prefumed with dharma. There is dharma in jazz, in beautiful gardens, in literature, in Sufi dance, in Quaker silence, in shaman healing, in projects to care for the homeless and clean up the inner cities, in Catholic ritual, in meaningful and competent work. There is dharma in anything that causes us to respect the innate softness and intelligence of ourselves and others. When the Buddhist system is applied properly, it does not turn us inward toward our own organizations, practices, and ideas. The system has succeeded when the Buddhist can recognize the true dharma at the core of all other religions and disciplines that are based on respect for the human image, and has no need to reject them. Reality-as-is is beyond creed or even formulae. The wind blows where it will. "Universal Christ" or "Dharma" as I see it, and trust, healing goes on. Today we can witness to the growth of Support Groups for instance, those who have suffered from a personal trauma, who then seek to help others who are facing the very same challenges. Social Media is often slagged off, but the positives are there. Jesus, as the "Only Way", can safely be left behind in what few pulpits are left.

Having mulled it over, for better or for worse....😄 There was an idea put forward by a Christian theologian, John Dunne I think, of "passing over" - passing over from our own belief system into that of another. Having done so, to return to ones own and seeing it with fresh eyes. As you suggest, far easier said than done. Putting yourself in someone elses shoes is often recommended before "judging" them but often our empathy is in short supply. Where is the deep existential experience that could ever truly put us in another's shoes? I'm thinking now of compassion, compassion as an exchange between equals, "not a meeting of wounded and healer" (Pema Chodron). If so then knowing ourselves, our own darkness, finding our own true, authentic context is as I see it the true imperative. Finding our own context is, as I understand it, to free ourselves of the reflex, knee jerk thoughts and actions built into us by the cultural times we were randomly born into, the conditioning of our upbringing by parents and peer groups. Is that even possible? "Be not conformed to this world." I'm beginning to see the significance of the idea of "individuation" put forward by Carl Jung. Often I've seen it as counter to the "eastern" notions of "no-self", but having "passed over" (not passed out!) and investigated, I now see the connection. We must find our own true context, born of authentic experience. Some things we are born into could well be authentic, others simply wrong. A quagmire. "Who shall untangle this tangle?" asks the Buddha. Myself, I need, and have, faith. Trust in Reality-as-is as a place of healing. Trust in Infinite Compassion, Infinite Wisdom, Infinite Potential. Reality as healing will "give itself" to us, as we trust "so shall it be unto us." Maybe others will not see the connection, but here is Dogen again:- "Therefore, if there are fish that would swim or birds that would fly only after investigating the entire ocean or sky, they would find neither path nor place. When we make this very place our own, our practice becomes the actualization of reality." Those words call for Faith/Trust.

Musing further. I know there are quite a few books these days that question if Jesus ever actually existed. I've read none of them in full detail. But keeping with Bart Erhman (who rejects the non-existence thesis) it seems pretty apparent that the first disciples expected the imminent end of the world, the "return of Jesus in the air", the final judgement. (Evidence for this can even be found in St Paul's letters...." we who are alive at his coming") Obviously it never happened and therefore the "meaning" of it all had to break new ground, this in the thought forms of the world as it was then for the educated. Greek philosophy and what not. Myself, I think "Jesus" must be left behind and the only hope for Christianity is with the Universal Christ. Elsewhere I posted some words related to T.S.Eliot, and they are relevant here:- Eliot feels no compunction in alluding to the Bhagavad Gita in one section of a poem and Dante's Paradiso in the next. He neither asserts the rightness nor wrongness of one set of doctrines in relation to the other, nor does he try to reconcile them. Instead, he claims that prior to the differentiation of various religious paths, there is a universal substratum called Word (logos) of which religions are concretions. This logos is an object both of belief and disbelief. It is an object of belief in that, without prior belief in the logos, any subsequent religious belief is incoherent. It is an object of disbelief in that belief in it is empty, the positive content of actual belief is fully invested in religious doctrine. The Universal Christ would be for Christians the "universal substratum", that which Thomas Merton called The Hidden Ground of Love.

Thank you. Just a quick thought. This is where the Protestant "back to the Bible" idea falls down. As if that was a foundation of certainty. There is no going back. We can only go forward.

Thanks Nolose. Something to mull over. 🤔

As I see it, there is freedom as the fundamental reality. It is the "One" from which all arises. Thus non-duality (NOT "all is one" but rather "not two") In the Buddhist tradition are many deep philosophies way beyond my ken (particularly in the Tibetan traditions) and I admit to having no idea at all if freedom "is a valid concept" or if the various arguments for freedom are cogent. For myself, as far as dependent origination and the Theravada texts, "everything" is dependent/contingent but consciousness alone does not turn back upon itself or depend upon anything else. The nature of consciousness is now a "hot" subject in the popular science realm. "If consciousness is confined to the skull how can joy exist?" ( Zen master) "Whoever told people that 'Mind' means thoughts, opinions, ideas and concepts? Mind means trees, fence posts, tiles and grasses" (Dogen) At another level, irrespective of this, seeking to be free of the shenanigans of our monkey minds is worthwhile.

"Who shall untangle this tangle" are the first words of the Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purification) Obviously its author, Buddhaghosa, supplied his context, the teachings of the Buddha. Exactly what they are are then spelt out over about 1000 turgid pages. Dogen:- "if there are fish that would swim or birds that would fly only after investigating the entire ocean or sky, they would find neither path nor place." (From Genjokoan) So what "context" should we put things into? "We are the beings who interpret, it is our very being" says a modern philosopher. Do we simply inherit a "context" given the time and place allotted to us, most would say randomly, and live, our lives virtually determined, genuine radical freedom a chimera? Or have we what the zens call an "original face", the face we had before we were born? I think faith comes into it. Not belief as such, but faith that we can find a true path and place irrespective of complete investigation of the "entire ocean and sky". In Christian terms, following Merton, God is freedom, and is his own gift. Radical Incarnation. Reality is a constant advance into novelty. We can join in. End of waffle.

Just to say that I've slipped over onto another forum that revolves around mental health issues. That seems to be where it's at these days. Quite a lively forum!