SteveS55

Hi Angelo, I'm a cradle Catholic myself, who was subject to the normal indoctrination. Years later I discovered contemplative Catholicism, thanks mainly to Thomas Merton. It was more practice oriented than doctrine, and ultimately led me to the study and practice of some of the Eastern traditions. Over the years it has all become oddly familiar, yet insufficient. The only thing certain is uncertainty, and what is not known. Peace. Steve

Thanks for the article, Rom. I'd never given much thought to his doctrinal stance, but the article seems to clarify that. Maybe the quote is telling of his "real" beliefs. But, beyond being labeled "Sufi", he was much more poet and mystic than anything. If you are going to be those things, you have to break with doctrinal boundaries and allow creativity to express itself. Personally, I love his poetry, and I would probably believe him just because of his beauty of expression. You know, it's like Keats..."Beauty is truth, truth beauty. That is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know". Steve

Rumi is a little late arriving at this thread, but here is what he has to say: "God turns us from one feeling to another, and teaches by means of opposites, so that we have two wings to fly instead of one". I suspect this is in defense of duality as a necessary condition for human existence. Peace. Steve

Hi Soma, You are very fortunate to have realized this. I think it is pretty rare to find those who have. I have been able to slowly understand that while suffering is pervasive, it is not "personal". I think when we take suffering "personally", we try to avoid it at all costs, and end up creating internal conflict and additional suffering. But, suffering is woven into the fabric of things. Acceptance of this is a hard thing to come by but, as you say, it is the doorway to peace. Steve

I have heard some teachers in the Eastern traditions say that this existence is “paradise” and life itself is sacred. Most of my life I assumed that this wasn’t true, and that life often sucked, and sometimes sucked badly. Also, most of the people I have known would agree with me. I guess that’s the problem when a bunch of unenlightened people get together and start discussing “life”. I saw a bumper sticker on a car today that said: “Life is so very simple”. This struck me as probably true, and I started thinking about how much our minds influence our perspective on life. A mere flick of a mental switch can turn life from “hell” to “paradise”, and back again. I want to forget about everything I’ve been told about life; whether it’s paradise, a veil of tears, or something in between. What others have to say about this is irrelevant. I want to find out for myself and, if there is a purpose, or goal to my own life it would be this alone. Whether or not I realize it in this life, or the next, or the one after that doesn’t matter to me much, but I think we all need to at least start. My hope is that everyone else will realize this as well. It would make life “so very simple”. Peace. Steve

I agree that this probably isn't the most efficient system for navigating life, but what's done is done. A few years ago, there was a poll done in the States asking people what they thought of God's overall management of the universe. Apparently, Americans are a bit hard to please, because He only came in at a 52% approval rate. Still, that's not bad for this country! You can read about the results of the poll in the link below. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/27/god-congress-approval-rating_n_911220.html Steve

Karma doesn’t hold anyone accountable for their past actions, or even their current manner of being in the universe. There is no justice, reward, or punishment implicit in the doctrine. Fundamentally, it is the law of cause and effect. One action will give rise to a certain related effect, and so on. The metaphor is that of an acorn, which properly nurtured and cared for, will grow into an oak tree. It will never produce a cottonwood. The oak tree is the result of an acorn and its environment. It’s not necessary for people to “remember” their karma from past lives, as the present resultant is sufficient to deal with. The sum total of what we are now is at least partially dependent on our karmic imprints. A person can become aware of their various karmic imprints through meditation, reflection, psychotherapy, etc. Karma can also be “purified” in so far as the cause which produced a particular effect can be permanently removed, so that our past karmic imprints are no longer an issue. Many religions have specific practices for this type of purification, even without the acknowledgement of the existence of karmic forces per se. In contemplative Christianity there is a general description of the spiritual life progressing in terms of stages. One of the most popular templates for this is: purgation-illumination-union. The great mystics, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and others referenced these stages in their teachings. I would say the stage of purgation is similar to the purification of one’s karmic imprint. At the stage of “union with God”, “enlightenment”, or whatever you choose to call it, karma is extinguished, and we are no longer subject to any causal conditioning at all. Christians call this heaven or the “beatific vision”. Other religions use different terms. From a more secular perspective, Abraham Maslow used the terms “self-actualization” and “peak experience”. Peace. Steve

Here's a link to an article written by a Jungian psychoanalyst explaining types of karma from a psychological perspective. https://innerself.com/content/relationships/family/4870-what-is-family-karma-by-ashok-bedi-a-boris-matthews.html Steve

I tend to believe in the notion of karma. Today, many people would probably refer to it as “genetic and cultural predisposition”, but I just overlay the word “karma” on that long-winded statement. If you believe in an “afterlife”, then you can easily believe in rebirth or reincarnation, going hand in hand with karma. I don’t necessarily believe in an afterlife, but more like a continuation of mind, which is capable of regenerating a material form from one life to another. The problem is that I don’t remember anything except my present life, but that might not be “present” at all. It may just be all one thing, during which I experience changes to my karma and consequent actions which follow. I know, it sounds very odd, but it’s interesting to ponder. Peace. Steve

Hi Joseph, "Then i would propose you may think it has no purpose but you live your life as if it does because you must truly belief life has purpose. It seems to me, out of the heart comes our actions and not necessarily in agreement in what we think we believe.." What I think is that there is the fundamental fact of existence. Whether or not this constitutes "purpose", I don't know. If it does, then "purpose" must have always existed in its own right, without the acknowledgement of subjective experience. I have a bit of a problem with the belief in mental constructs having existed prior to a conscious mind thinking them. Our observations of "purpose" and assigning "purpose" to our own lives are still very subjective phenomena. Steve

I may not think life has a purpose, but I can certainly live it purposefully. I don't see a contradiction here. Peace. Steve

It's not as though I haven't spent many years pondering the question of "purpose". Many people ask this of themselves, and they generally settle on an explanation that conforms to their religious/spiritual, or other general world view. My question of purpose was always answered with the echoes of my own question. Finally, I came to understand that by asking the question, my purpose had become to find purpose! Such a thing cannot be. Existence and life can't ask a question of itself, it can only suggest a response to what already is. I think it is the response that we seek, and "closure" is what we hope to find. The quote provided by Joseph is a difficult notion to swallow. But it is not a belief system, merely an observation inviting examination. The Buddha is often depicted as laughing. Laughter is sometimes the outward manifestation of internal peace and happiness. In Buddhism it is said that a "sign" of enlightenment is to perceive reality as if it is an illusion. Once that is achieved, the enlightened being can only laugh. Peace, Steve

I think the beauty of existence in general, and life in particular, is that there is absolutely no purpose to it. There is no path and no goal. To exist without purpose, and simply to exist is unimagineable. Peace. Steve

Although I have no proof or realization for myself, my intuition tells me that the notion of causal determinants appearing to function in a linear fashion, from past to present to future is merely descriptive of the manner in which humans perceive their own existence. These notions "exist" in so far as they are agreed upon by convention, but they have no basis other than that. I think the conditioning that occurs is a result of convention, rather than something which is inherent in human nature. This same "intuition" also tells me that our conventional belief in a past, present and future, is also an illusion. If that is the case, then causal determinants, dependent on the notion of time, are also illusory. So, to say there either is or is not something humans possess that is called "free will" becomes simply an object of scientific, philosophical and theological inquiry. From a strictly pragmatic perspective, it is preferable for humans to believe that even if they are not free in their will, they have the ability to choose the "good", and I will leave that word to be defined by others. Peace. Steve

So, for those of you who reject "free will", the question is this: Do you think it is possible for humans to liberate themselves from conditioned existence? Would this constitute "free will"? Asked another way, what would a human who possessed "free will" look like? Peace. Steve

No, I don't think we have to "know" any of this stuff. I think it might be best just to find the path of compassion, like the one Jesus took, and relax into it. Peace. Steve

Hi Elen, There are some contemporary Christian thinkers who would say that the Incarnation was the activity of the Divine (God the unmanifest) creating its own human nature. "Christ" is the term used to designate the eternal union of universal human nature with the divine. Jesus was the exemplar of this union, but he was merely human and not divine. So, when these Christians refer to "Christ", they are referring to the union of God's created human nature with the divine nature, rather than Jesus the person. Hopefully this doesn't muddy the waters for you, but I think this understanding has a similar ring to it as your idea of God regenerating itself. God is not technically able to recreate itself (at least as far as I know), but can unite itself with universal human nature, since He is source of creation in the first place. In any case, these are very heavy theological issues which have been debated for two thousand years, and no one seems to have come up with a definitive answer. So, if your concept works for you, I say go for it, because no one else has any answers, they just claim to have them. As for the koan, I don't claim to understand Zen. The only ones who do seem to be Zen masters. It is my understanding that Zen masters present these koans to their students, so that they will eventually understand the futility of trying to answer them relying on their own reasoning. When they finally do give the "correct" answer, it makes absolutely no sense to anyone except the student and the master. It is way too strange for me! Peace. Steve

Hi Elen, I think it's our reliance on classical logic that makes these things so hard to understand. In the case of Christ/God, is this one or two? Is God one or two? God cannot be both, because logically, we run right up against something called the "Law of the Excluded Middle", which comes from Aristotle's logic. Generally, it means that if two statements are contradictory, one must be affirmed, and the other denied. Put a different way, if one statement is affirmed, the other must be denied. In theory, on an intellectual level, none of this can ever be understood. It all falls within the "excluded middle", which I would say is the ineffable. So, there is this pretty well known Zen koan which goes: "If everything returns to the "one", where does the "one" return?" Personally, I'm still working on this! Peace. Steve

I'm really not sure if it is "all one", mainly because I don't know what that means. At least among Buddhist schools there is debate about this. If I say it is not all one, then I am a dualist, which has become a dirty word these days. But, I don't know what non-dualism looks like. I only have my perspective which changes from time to time. Sometimes reality is quite mundane, and sometimes it seems to be miraculous. Neither reality, nor my perspective seems to remain the same. Everything seems to include change and impermanence as a display of the "one", whatever that might be. Peace. Steve

Hi Soma, This reminds me of something John O'Donohue said in his book "Anam Cara". Explaining Celtic spirituality, he said that from the Celtic perspective a mind/body is "poured" into a pre-existent soul. I agree. We live in conventional reality where past, present and future make sense to us because they proceed in a linear fashion. Einstein said "time is the reason everything doesn't happen all at once". If the concept of time is agreed upon conventionally, then it is also an illusion. If instead, we exist in the "Eternal Now", then yes, all of the great spiritual traditions and teachers are there for us now! A bit esoteric for some people's taste, but not for mine. Peace. Steve

To be clear, I should add, parenthetically, that later I came to understand that the experiences I referred to above, were products of my mind, and had their source in my mind. While I briefly entertained the notion that it was an experience of the "presence of God", upon examination, I didn't believe it. After a while, I think I "pulled the covers" on this very enjoyable trick of the mind, and solidified it with a ritualistic prayer to God. At that point, everything came to a halt. The other thing I came to understand is that a very strong belief in an inherent, independent "self" was the fertile ground upon which my mind planted, and sowed the seeds for these experiences. Without a belief in the "self", there can be no mystical experience per se. Humans have an uncanny ability to mistake the miraculous for the mundane. We want to arrive at an experience of the divine that we firmly believe is beyond the ordinary. But, in my opinion, existence is already miraculous, and it actually IS the ordinary. There is no point to gild the lily. It is all about recognizing this, rather than attempting to create an alternative reality. Of course, these are my own opinions, and I suspect that others having similar experiences might disagree. Peace. Steve

If anyone is interested in a rather thorough examination of "self" from a Christian perspective, I would suggest the book "What Is Self" by Bernadette Roberts. She is a contemporary Christian (Catholic) contemplative/mystic who has written a couple of other book related to this. But, this is her most recent and the best one, in my opinion. Actually it was her work that led me to explore the notions of "self" and "ego" in Buddhist doctrine and practice. I haven't been able to find much Christian thinking on "self", whereas Buddhism is all about the notion of "self", or rather, the illusion of self. Bernadette is probably one of the few Christian thinkers who has gone beyond discussions of "ego" to the loss, or "falling away" of self. If you are familiar with the stages of the spiritual life as described by St. John of the Cross, you will recognize that this loss of self is one step beyond St. John's "unitive state". Peace. Steve

Personally, I think most "spiritual" people benefit from a belief system. But, it is the beginning of a path rather than the culmination. It is the famous metaphor of the boat that seekers use to get to the other shore, but then leave it behind instead of dragging it with them. Peace. Steve

Hi Elen, I'm going to have to pass on sharing these on the forum for the time being. It's not that they are terribly personal, but rather it might imply to others that I think myself somehow "special" for just having them! Nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing at all special about me. I am an ordinary, unenlightened being, just like everybody else. There are many, many people who experience these momentary awakenings, and I don't think they are at all uncommon. But, I will share this, which actually is a bit personal. I kept a journal of some of these experiences about ten or twelve years ago. At some point I decided I had learned everything I could from them, and didn't want any more. I think I was secretly yearning for more, but knew it wasn't right. Interestingly, I asked God to stop them, if He had been their cause. They stopped cold and I haven't had such an experience since! It sounds strange, but it is completely true. So, back to St. Teresa, she once said: "Don't seek the consolations of God, but rather, the God of consolations." I have taken that to heart. Peace. Steve P.S. Thanks for all of your thoughtful posts since you've joined!

Hi Elen, So, the question I think is really: "can we trust these experiences?", which are generally referred to as "mystical". I suspect you have had such experiences, as I'm sure many on this forum have, including myself. They are wonderful experiences and, personally, I see no reason we cannot trust them and accept all of the joy inherent in them. They are a beautiful expression of insight into the divine nature of things, if only for a brief moment. But, they are also experiences which can and should be questioned, as to their nature. All of the great mystics and yogis/yoginis have put them to the test. St. Teresa of Avila often questioned her own ecstasies and was asked by others about theirs. The few times I have had these experiences, I have just been aware of it, enjoyed it, and when it subsided, gave it no more thought. This was the advice given to me by someone I consider a living Christian mystic. Peace. Steve