BeachOfEden

Maggie: "It's interesting, but I know several folks who were real fundamentalists at one time. Then their faith got shaken because they couldn't believe every word in the Bible and they became athiests. They rail against the fundamentalists and their propensity of insisting they have the TRUTH but these athiests now insist that their lack of belief in God is the TRUTH. So they went from black and white on the right to black and white on the left. Seems to me that they are just some of those folks who have to be right and have all the answers sewed up in a neat little package." Yes, Maggie, that IS PRECISELY I think! That is there IS an extreme egotistical RIGHT....AND...LEFT! Black OR WHITE..and yet BOTH extreme sides reject the very possibility that THERE IS A MIDDLE aka GREY! "I think it involves fear. If white is good and black is bad, or vice versa, then you can know how to be safe. If I am a fundamentalist and believe that I know all the rules for getting "saved", then I'm safe. If the answers aren't that easy and you don't really know what you get points for, then I'm not safe. " Again, right on. I agree 100%! This is the Far right fundamental Protestants bag and it is also the far right JW's bag. To even ponder for one second the very posibility that 'MAYBE" JW's are NOT right after all....is scary beyound belief to JW's. "If...JW's are not right..than this might mean there is NO new earth reward..that there is NO ONE RIGHT GROUP..and thus maybe they are doing this all for nothing! If the JW org is NOt the ark of salvation then where are my absolutes? Where's my reasurance? Where's my saftey? My salvation? It's scary to have to think for yourself! Or so they reason...

"That also tends to lead one out of using the KJV as the absolute only true bible, etc. " I never saw what was so great about the KJV. I am not a big fan of Shakespear talk.

How about being labeled a "CULT" merely on the grounds that you do not embrace the Nicean creed of the concept of the trinity?

AletheiaRivers: "Someone can be theologically conservative but socially progressive. I think Tony Campolo is a good example. Philip Yancey. Possibly Brian McLaren. Phil Yancey believes in a physical resurrection. He believes in a literal fallen angel named Satan. He believes in sacrificial atonement. He is however, rather socially progressive." Precisley. That IS what I was talking about. What kind of name or discription would be given to such a believer such as Tony Campolo? A Social Progressive..but...? Cause I believe like him..sounds like..at least... October's Autumn: " I am surprised at the fallen angel/Lucifer thing. I just assumed that people had been educated out of that one. It was a King who fell. I wonder if Yancy reads the KJV version of the bible!" ???? So if one was to believe that Satan WAS a fallen angel then this means they are a fundamentalist? But how? BTW, there is a very fundamental faith group that is very closely related to Jehovah's Witnesses called The Christadelphians and THEy Do NOT believe that Satan is a real person. But again, whether one believes Satan is a fallen angel or a real person or not...has nothing to do with a person supporting social justice views or not, right?

David d: In The Heart of Christianity, Marcus Borg urges to take back the phrase "born again" to describe the transformation that is central to Christianity. It made sense to me.I'm not sure why that is distasteful to so many." (A) too biblical? No (B)sound like pride?No..but see (D) ©Does it sound like a declaration that one speaks in tongues? In my opinion, Yes. I, and I believe, many DO associate the term to be "born Again" to worship in a Penecostal or 'charismatic" way, and for me that is a form of worship that is highly distasteful and anti-intellecual to me. (D) When you spoke of pride...there is something kinda related to this in that for Evangelical Protestants the term "born Again" Christian has come to be defined as being an a special chosen type of Christian, while all other types of Christians ca not be verified as true. BORN AGAIN....EVANGELICAL... All these terms have come to be used to indentify a 'precise' type pf christianity known as Evangelical Protestant. While Catholics, Unit Church and ALL 'OTHER' non-Evangelical Protestant Christians may very well discribe an experince as being "Born Again"...or may say they ARE "Evangelical"..never the less...neither of these terms will be acknowledged as true by Evangelical protestants who have come to claim these precise theological terms as their own. WHAT DOES BORN AGAIN 'REALLY' MEAN? A very logical question to ask is, WHAT PRECISELY DOES 'BORN AGAIN' MEAN??? Different people will give different answers..but as far as my resreach has gone, from a bibical point of view..to become "BORN AGAIN" means to DIE and turn into a spirit being..and as such I don;t relate to claiming this discription of thelogical term to myself. I am a born-again Christian, but on detailing what that means to me, it means a transformation that was not conservative at all. It's like the last time I said the Bible was the word of God, by which I meant it was God's instrument to teach us about Jesus, even if it was written entirely by men, even if the gospels are in large part fantasy. That's not what people mean by Word of God, I suppose. Words are ambiguous. There's no getting past that.

Here is something that has frustrated me for some time and that is that there are, in my view, basically '2' parts of elements to a religion or faith group. One is the Doctrines..and the other part or element is the Social Justice Views. T he problem is..that is the field of theology or research...these '2' elements are more often then not lumped or merged together into one and this makes studying the faith group complicated. A good example of what I mean is when a faith group views the resurrection of Jesus as REAL instead of just a metaphore..then they are grouped or labled "fundamental" rather than liberal. They group them this way because most view liberals as viewing all mircles as merely 'myths' or metaphores. This is the DOCTRINE. However, if a faith group bans women from being preachers/pastors/elders,ect..then this too would be conisdered 'Fundamental"...But in this case, this would be SOCIAL JUSTIVE VIEWS. I guess what I am getting at is..whatever your background..if you are NOW Progressive..in that you DO embrace ALL the SOCIAL JUSTICE ISSUES..but you happen to view the resurrection of Jesus as REAl and maybe mircles in general..then it does not seem correct or right that you be labled 'Fundamental' merely on a count of one's belief in the resuurection as real and or mircles..and thus the FACT they one DOEs embrace ALL the Social Justice Issues be DIsregarded or not count..Thus How do we 'SEPERATE' the Social Justice beliefs...FROM...the Doctrinal Beliefs?..and what about when the Social Justice does cross over into the Doctrinal?

And this "grey" is the moderate/balanced..or as Buddha might discribe it, "the Middle Way." This is the challenge..that is..to make BOTh extremes see...the extreme Fundamental Right and the Far Atheists/Humanist Left..which are The Black and White..see that yes, a 'GREY'/Middle Blanced Way...DOES exists...It seems to me that both extremes...Black and White/Far Right and Far Left refuse to acknowledge the "Grey'...akak The Moderate Middle..and thus why they are both EXTREME.

So, if you don;t mind me asking, which fundie church or fundamental faith group burned you? Was it the Pentecostal Church? Feel freel to share your recovery story.

What do you mean? Like you mean if United Church of Christ would backed this movie because they did that ad welcoming the gay community?

Having said all this...I can't resist seeing the next episode

I think one of the biggest challenges to the Judeo-Christian faith for people is the issue of people being burned by other people claiming to follow Christ whole heartedly and yet seem to be mean to everyone. The problem is that when religious people are mean and unkind their is the tendency to blaim God for these mean people and allowing them to be mean to other people...But the thing is..that ALL churches are created by HUMANS who ARE imperfect...all faith groups and churches are created by imperfect people..this is their attempt to 'try'and reflect God..but their attempts, agian, ARE imperfect.... The big challenge is..when anyone is burned by mean acting people in churches..is to try and always remeber that it IS IMperfect PEOPLE who made up these churches and faith groups...and NOT God. The challenge is to learn to SEPERATE hateful acting and mean PEOPLE claiming to follow God...FROM the actual person of GOD and Christ. I feel this is the biggest challenge of all. If one feels they MUST leave their previous church or faith group background because of unkind treatment from people...then by all means, do what you must do...just please try and 'seperate' your leaving a Imperfect church/faith group FROm God. In other words..leave the group but don;t leave God and try and realize that they ARe '2' 'different' things. This is why, I think, SO many liberals become bitterly atheists/Humanists..cause they could NOT seperate the man-made faith groups FROM God.

Yeah, I do not think the way Jesus is protrayed in the show is a problem at all....rather it's these humans.

About the only part of the show I Do like is the parts where Daniel talks to Jesus..Daniel and jesus are the only two likeable characters on the show. The reason why i DIslike the gal bishop so much is cause she is hateful and acts likes she hates people..and so she must have chosen the wrong job. Daniel's father as the senior bishop is also a jerk because he's cheating on his wife and yet would look down on his grandson because he's gay.

The thing that bothers me most about this show's dipiction of pastors and priests is in this show, other than Daniel they are such an Unlikeable and uncaring jerks that I am affraid this show will only make Humanists and those who have been burned by fundamentalists or hypocritical church past experinces even more bitter towards the entire concept of the Christian faith. I can see why conservative Christians find this show insulting to Christianity..but more so, since this Daniel show is 'supose' to be about a liberal or Progressive Episcopalain pastor...this should be disturbing to Episcopailains, Liberal catholics and ALL Progressive, liberal and moderate Christians of all faith group backgrounds disturbed about how liberal or Progressive churches and their members are protrayed on this show as not really caring about their faith very deeply and instead just looking at it as a 9 to 5 job. Instead of the woman bishop of Daniel's church being a caring progressive minded woman who wants to use her position to better the community she lives in by reaching out in social justice..instead she is protrayed as a apthathelic and cold-hearted bitch who shows contempt for Daniel, the congeration and humanity at large. Then Daniel's elderly father who is the senior Episcopalain bishop is a judemental and hyprocritical fart who the entire family in in fear of will discover the truth that his grandson is really gay, and if he is so prime and proper and the authority on morality and yet while their fear his disprovel of the grandson being attracted to the same sex, he himself is committing adultry with the cold-hearted bitch lady bishop who's hateful to Daniel. All of this is extremely negative..and yet how positive could this story been written. What if the female bishop would NOT be an uncaring bitch? What if she was SO caring and progressive to her community and suportive of Daniel that the wive might even feel jealous? What if..the elderly senior bishop/Daniel's father was not an old hyprocrite? What if he were an old school conservative Episcopalain who finds the new liberal spirit of the Episcopailan church had to accept even though he does show moderate signs? What if Daniel and the lady bishop could help him in this? What if the adopted Asian son was not an ungrateful jerk? But was actually grateful to Daniel and his mother that they accepted him as their own? Well, this is a start...humm..maybe one of us should write a tv show about a Progressive Christian family...

What I have observed with both watching this Daniel show and on7th Heaven...is on both of these shows all the Rev's or Pastor's kids are hateful and disrespectful. On this Daniel show I really like the basic idea of having an Episcopailan priest..akak..a liberal church pastor....but while I Do like the idea of Pastor Daniel chatting with Jesus in the show (btw, my mom does not approve of this she thinks it displays Jesus in a very Demoted of Diety way...she says paints him as a "good ol boy.")....I dislike the Desperate Housewives mentality of the show. Here are some of the main challenges that the main character Daniel encounters in just the very first episode: 1. A Jr. High Daughter Grace, who gets busted for selling pot to pay for her Japeness animation project. 2. An adopted teenage Asian son who is proud to proclaim himself as a practicing "Man Whore." 3. Another son who is gay..and is prehaps the only civilized acting child of the family and the only one who is respectful to his perents. 4. A very hateful and unpleasent woman bishop..who constantly berates the Rev Daniel and shows contempt for him and basically everyone and likes to drink on the job and pop pills..and btw is comitting adultry with Daniel's elderly father who is also an Episcoplain bishop. 5. Daniel's wive is also sarcastic and bitter to Daniel and everyone and has a drinking problem. 6. Daniel's brother in law steels all the money from the church and somehow is killed and gets connected to the Italian Mafia. 7. Daniel befriends an Italian Catholic head priest who appears to basically use his position as head priest in the church as merey a cover while his real job is being a mafia GodFather figure. There are more..but this is just a basic start. Now, if there were just 2 of these issues out of 7..it would seem more believable. I would say get rid of issues#1, 4 and 7....because they are just simply too over-the-top. The bitchy main bishop gal of the Epscopailan church that daniel is forced to deal with is a very unlovely character she has about as much redeemable and likeable qualities as the evil Emperor on Return of the Jedi. All of Daniel's children are obxnious and unloveable..accept for the one gay son. Now another main problem...other than the main character of Rev.Daniel himself the only other '3' main religious themed spiritual leaders in the show are morally bankrupt and make it very clear that in reality they could not give a flying bleep about faith...the bitchy hateful woman Episcopalain bishop, the Italian GodFather mafia Catholic head Catholic priest..and Daniel's elderly Epsicopalain head bishop priest. These 3 characters give a very bad image to spiritual teachers of Christianity and they paint a picture that makes it look as if all Espiscopalians and Catholics leaders don;t take their faith seriously..and to them it's just a job..and that they do not really care about people..as if all Christian spiritual teachers are just two-face hyprocrits. Thee only person in this whole story that really seems to actually care about Jesus...is the main chacter Rev.Daniel...while all others in his family and even these 3 other main Episcopalian and Catholic spiritual teachers act as if they could care less.

The faces of Jesus From faith to faith, visions of Christ vary By Bill Tammeus, Knight Ridder Newspapers January 7, 2006 The "who question" about Jesus is key, Thomas A. Noble tells his students. "I unpack all the rest of Christianity from Christology (the study of Christ)," says Nobel, professor of theology at Nazarene Theological Seminary of Kansas City, Mo. Similarly, when professor Warren Carter of St. Paul School of Theology in Kansas City teaches New Testament classes, he asks students to think about two questions Jesus asked his disciples: "Who do people say I am?" and "Who do you say I am?" "I talk a lot about this in relation to particular texts we work on," Carter says. His goal is to help them understand that "there wasn't a monolithic understanding in the New Testament" about Jesus and that church doctrine about him continued to develop after New Testament times. Christians, however, aren't the only ones thinking about Jesus. He's also on the minds of adherents of many religious traditions. And their answers to questions vary widely. Here is some of what they say: Islam Muslims call Jesus Isa (variously spelled Issa or I'sa) and call him a highly honored prophet, though not divine. The Quran mentions Jesus many times and includes a story of his virginal birth. Islam believes Jesus was calling people to surrender to God, which is what the word "Islam" means. So they view him as a Muslim, even though he lived hundreds of years before Muhammad. Although they believe Jesus performed miracles, they deny he was crucified. Rather, they say, God merely made it appear so to Jesus' enemies. Muslims believe Jesus ascended bodily to heaven. Syed E. Hasan, chairman of the Department of Geosciences at the University of Missouri, Kansas City, and a member of the Islamic Research Foundation, calls it "an absolute requirement of the Islamic faith to believe in him and the message he brought." But Hasan notes that "Islam rejects the concept of Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and emphasizes the oneness or unity of God." Judaism Jews acknowledge that Jesus is the personal historical connection between them and Christians. Jesus was a Jew, and his followers believed he was the promised Messiah of Israel, a claim most Jews who knew -- or knew about -- Jesus when he lived rejected. Rabbi Alan Cohen of Congregation Beth Shalom in the Kansas City area says that, not many years ago, "with the taste of persecution still very fresh in the mouths of many, Jesus' very name was anathema to most Jews. Identifying him and acknowledging his existence would be to painfully give life to the accusations of 'Christ killer' and deicide that began in the early years of the church and continued to modern times. "While today there is still no unanimity of views about Jesus within Judaism, there is certainly a much more accepting view," Cohen says. "To many Jews, he was born, lived and died a Jew. Some would clearly identify him with an element of the rabbinic community of the first century and categorize him among the reformers of that community -- probably many would say not just a reformer but a radical reformer (though one who) ... never proclaimed a messianic status." Hinduism The range of views about Jesus in Hinduism is quite wide. Some Hindus admire him so much they think of him as a yogi (a practitioner of yoga) and follow his teachings. But, as a rule, Hindus reject the Christian contention that somehow the incarnation of God in Jesus was unique. Hindus believe God also was incarnate in such Hindu deities as Krishna. Anand Bhattacharyya, an active member of the Kansas City Hindu community, calls Jesus "a great seer of truth like ancient Hindu sages. He had extraordinary yogic power to communicate with God and revealed his messages to the followers. I am particularly overwhelmed by his message of love, kindness and compassion. He was a true Bhakti yogi." ("Bhakti" is derived from a root word that means "to be attached to God.") Sikhism Sikhism emerged 500 years ago with no direct connections to Judaism or Christianity. But an indication of the respect with which some Sikhs view Jesus can be found in an essay by a Sikh on a British Broadcasting Corp. Web site, http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions, that describes various religions of the world. Nikky Singh writes that she sees Jesus "as a wonderful parallel with the person of Nanak, the first Sikh guru. There is no direct connection between Christ and the Sikh gurus ... but when we look closely at them, they illuminate each other." Buddhism There is no generally accepted Buddhist view of Jesus, but some Buddhists think of Jesus as a bodhisattva, one who, motivated by compassion, seeks enlightenment for everyone, including himself. "Many Buddhist teachers I know, and myself included, view Jesus as an enlightened being, a bodhisattva, whose message was not that much different than that of the Buddha's. Jesus encouraged his followers not to harm others and to be kind (and) compassionate and to love others," said Lama Chuck Stanford of the Rime Buddhist Center in Kansas City. Stanford notes, "Buddhism predates Christianity (by about 500 years), so there would be nothing in the teachings about Jesus." Baha'ism Adherents of the Baha'i faith believe Jesus was a manifestation of God but not the only one. Rather he was one of several messengers from God. The founder of Baha'ism, who took the name Baha'u'llah, called himself "a later manifestation" of God. In addition to Jesus, this line of messengers honored by Baha'is includes Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster and Muhammad. Christian-related movements As Carter notes, it took traditional Christianity time to reduce its beliefs to written creeds to which church structures gave approval, but eventually those creeds declared the church's historic view that Jesus is God's fully human, fully divine son and one of the persons of the Trinity. Various other views (under such names as Arianism, Nestorianism and Monophysitism) were expressed in early Christianity -- and have continued to emerge in other times and places -- but eventually were declared heretical if they disagreed with the Nicene Creed, which first was articulated in the year 325. But faith communities with connections to Christianity have developed views in tension with traditional Christian beliefs. Among them: Mormons The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with headquarters in Utah, calls Jesus the "Heavenly Father's Only Begotten Son in the flesh." But the writings the church holds as Scripture go beyond the Christian Bible to include the Book of Mormon, which tells a story of how, after Jesus was resurrected, he appeared to people in what is now known as America, taught them his gospel and formed his church. The Book of Mormon says the people to whom Jesus appeared here were descendents of a prophet named Lehi, who the book says lived in Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and whom God commanded to lead a small group of people to the American continent. The Community of Christ Formerly the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, with headquarters in Independence, Mo., this group also holds the Book of Mormon to be holy Scripture but has positioned itself closer to traditional Christianity than the LDS church. Bruce Lindgren of the Community's First Presidency's office says the church believes Jesus is " 'God with us,' the Son of God, and the living expression of God in the flesh. ... Although we do not use creeds in our worship, we believe that our understanding of Jesus Christ is consistent with the ecumenical Christian creeds." Unitarian Universalism In this tradition, Jesus is often honored as a wisdom teacher but is not considered divine and certainly not part of any Trinity, which Unitarians reject. The Rev. Thom Belote, pastor of the Shawnee Mission Unitarian Universalist Church in Overland Park, Kan., says that "if you ask a Unitarian Universalist if they believe Jesus was God, most would probably answer no. And it would be a tremendous mistake to interpret this reply as a negation, a rejection or a denial. "We say that Jesus was fully human, no different than you or I, except that he made use of that humanity more fully than you or I ever will," Belote says. "Jesus' ministry did not so much point to a kingdom in a time to come. It said that the kingdom is already here." Christian Science The founder, Mary Baker Eddy, expressed great reverence for Jesus as she created her unique views on healing. One tenet of Christian Science says in part: "We acknowledge that man is saved through Christ, through Truth, Life and Love as demonstrated by the Galilean Prophet in healing the sick and overcoming sin and death." Riley Seay of the Christian Science Committee on Publication for Missouri puts it this way: "We look at him as the savior of the world, as the son of God, as pretty much as he identifies himself in Scripture. We look to him for guidance. He was the master Christian, if you will. Through healing we know we are on track with his theology. If we understand what Jesus was teaching, the byproduct is going to be healing." Unity This movement, based at Unity Village near Lee's Summit, Mo., says it affirms the divinity of Jesus in that "Unity teaches that the spirit of God lived in Jesus, just as it lives in every person. Every person has the potential to express the perfection of Christ, as Jesus did, by being more Christlike in everyday life." Jehovah's Witnesses This faith community believes Jesus must always be distinguished from -- and is subordinate to -- God. The group's Web site explains: "In every period of his existence, whether in heaven or on earth, his (Jesus') speech and conduct reflect subordination to God. God is always the superior, Jesus the lesser one who was created by God. ... After his resurrection, he continues to be in a subordinate, secondary position." That view differs markedly from this one expressed by the Nicene Creed: Jesus is "the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father." But, as Carter says, that wording took time to develop. As his students wrestle with New Testament passages, he says, he first tries to get them to see what the text itself is saying about who Jesus is rather than imposing a Nicene or other view of him on the verses in question. Noble at Nazarene Seminary describes the process for his Christian students this way: "We're exploring what we've already confessed."

"As much as Focus on the Family being against it makes me want to watch it I'm afraid it is on while NUMB3RS is on so I won't be tunning in." My thoughts precisely. BTW, I personally loved NOTHING SACRED.

January 6, 2006 latimes.com \ 'Daniel' can't duck the culture wars NBC airs its first show about a troubled priest tonight. The complaints have been aired already. By Matea Gold, Times Staff Writer NEW YORK — The latest skirmish in the culture wars revolves around a mild-mannered Episcopal priest who nurses a secret Vicodin habit and regularly sees and converses with Jesus. The Rev. Daniel Webster, played by Aidan Quinn, is the main character in NBC's drama "The Book of Daniel," a series premiering tonight at 9 about an earnest but often harried New England minister and his efforts to cope with the challenges of modern-day parenthood — including a moody teenage daughter who is caught selling marijuana to finance her manga animation — and the politics of leading a church congregation. Along the way, he consults with a very real-looking Jesus, a character who looks as if he stepped straight off the canvas of "The Last Supper." Even before it has aired, the show has added fuel to a building debate about the portrayal of faith and religion in popular culture. The American Family Assn., a conservative Christian organization based in Tupelo, Miss., launched a campaign to get local NBC affiliates not to air the program, arguing that it is disrespectful of Christians. By Thursday afternoon, stations in Terre Haute, Ind., and Little Rock, Ark., had decided not to show it. Meanwhile, some Episcopal priests are urging their congregants to watch the program, saying that it offers a refreshingly candid portrayal of religious leaders and showcases the Episcopal Church as a tolerant denomination. The Episcopal Diocese of Washington has even launched the Blog of Daniel — found at blog.edow.org/weblog — a website designed to spur discussion about the issues raised on the program. All the fuss has come as somewhat of a surprise to creator Jack Kenny, who originally wrote the pilot as a writing sample a year ago. Kenny — who most recently produced "Wanda at Large" and "Titus" — said he intended to make Webster's vocation merely the background, not the focus of the show. "It's never been about religion," said Kenny, who was raised Roman Catholic and describes himself now as an unaffiliated Christian. "It's about a family that loves each other unconditionally and is ready to catch each other when they fall. "I was always very clear with the writers and actors that this was never to make fun of or mock Christianity," he added. "It was always a show about people of faith who believe in Jesus Christ as their savior. But it's not about that — that's just there." Kenny said he got the inspiration for the show from his partner's family, a tight-knit but often taciturn clan. "I always wanted to examine that world of the WASP, that uptight, Northeastern, 'Let's not talk about the world, let's have a martini instead,' " he said. "I remember Michael [Goodell] telling me that once when he was a kid, he said, 'God bless you, Mommy.' And his mother said, 'We don't say that.' I love that world; I love the unspoken, because really good actors can do so much with that." NBC executives were drawn to Kenny's script because it was unlike anything on the air, said Vivi Zigler, NBC's executive vice president of current programs. "You've got at its core a character that you don't usually see on television," Zigler said. "His family and surrounding extended family have so much drama, and he himself is a flawed character. And you have it set in a backdrop of a church, where his job is dealing with issues of faith and morality. There's this great juxtaposition, and the dramatic conflict and the humor come from that." Critics, however, take issue with the depiction of Webster and his family, including his wife, who frequently partakes of a midday martini; his 23-year-old son, Peter, a gay Republican; his 16-year-old adopted son, Adam, who tries to have sex with his girlfriend just about everywhere he can; and his sister-in-law, who has an affair with another woman. "We certainly understand that Christians have difficulties in life, even ministers," said Ed Vitagliano, a spokesman for the American Family Assn., who watched the pilot Tuesday night, along with other clergy, at the NBC affiliate in Memphis. "But this was not a realistic portrayal of a minister's life. This was so far beyond the pale, it was almost a comic strip version." Vitagliano said that the group was also offended that Kenny is gay, as are two of the show's characters. "We look at that and say, 'If they wanted to try to alienate conservative Christians, they're making every effort to do so,' " he said. Responded Kenny: "That strikes me as both non-Christian and un-American. It seems to me I should be able to write about anything I want to write about. They have a perfect right not to watch it." However, Vitagliano said more than 500,000 people had used the group's website to send e-mails to NBC and its affiliates demanding that the show be pulled. "This has really struck a nerve with people," he said. "I don't know that I've personally been this busy doing interviews since Ellen DeGeneres came out on her sitcom." The two stations that decided not to air the program were receiving letters, e-mails and phone calls complaining about the content. "There are just so many things that bother me about it," said Duane Lammers, station manager of WTWO in Terre Haute, who noted that in the first episode, Webster says he wants God to damn his brother-in-law. (He later tells Jesus he didn't mean it.) "That just doesn't belong on broadcast television." KARK in Little Rock has also decided not to air it, although the show will be carried in that market by the local WB affiliate, NBC officials said. Although the network has received a couple of thousand e-mails complaining about the show, 99% of stations in the country will be showing the program, Zigler noted. "We feel that it is actually a very good, uplifting, hopeful kind of show," said Zigler, adding that the producers consulted with Episcopal priests to ensure an accurate depiction of church hierarchy and liturgy. "Once you see it, you can see that it doesn't take [religion] lightly. I think the respect is there." Quinn agreed. "I don't understand all the talk about it, because if you ask me, this show is pretty wholesome, down the middle," he said in a recent conference call with reporters. "It deals with some controversial subject matters, certainly, but in a way that I don't think is that salacious." And some religious leaders have embraced the program. "I'm thrilled we have the opportunity to offer to the mainstream media the story of a progressive protagonist in a faith-based story where life is never tidy and neat," said the Rev. Susan Russell, senior associate for parish life at All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, where the show's pilot was filmed. "I think it's a realistic portrayal of a faithful man facing 21st century challenges." Russell, who has watched the pilot and read the scripts for the rest of the episodes, said she has sent a message to her congregants urging them to tune in to the program. She and other Episcopal leaders believe the show could actually draw more people to the Episcopal Church. The Blog of Daniel, in fact, includes links to a film about Episcopalians and information about the Washington diocese, and invites visitors to join others in online prayer and meditation. "I think a lot of people are looking for a spiritual home that doesn't look like the welcome mat that Jerry Falwell puts out," Russell said. If the public debate has turned rancorous, however, producers said that internally the topics provoked some fascinating dialogues. John Tinker, a born-again Christian who is one of the program's three executive producers, said the issues raised by the show's themes spilled into the writing room, where the staff frequently engaged in discussions about "life and death and everything in between." "I've worked on a lot of shows, and I had never had an experience that came close to it when it came to people just offering up for their fellow writers what they felt their place was in the universe," he said. "What I learned from non-Christians was really a blessing. It was nice to be around people and reminded of our common humanity."

I agree. My prime focus in Christ's teaching of extending social justice to all..and that this.. for me surpasses doctrinal views or debate such as trinity or whether God's name in Hebrew is spelled with a "J" or an "H",ect.

It's funny..once this ex-JW brought a funny but true point about how this one JW hymn about brothers gathering together in unity and then very begining of this song sounds like the theme of the Looney Tunes cartoon

Yes, I agree about the gardening and reading and these Progressive spiritual forums. As for music, I got this UU hymn book and the words in their are very positive..alot of stuff about nature and the earth being in harmony.

To address David's point. Dave, what I would recommend is to read the book, WHEN GOD BECOMES A DRUG by Leo Booth. This book is very great at showing people how to reconize your past unhealthy religious past and how to replace them with nEW positive HEALTHy ones. Then I would recommend TEN WRONG THINGS I LEARNED IN A CONSERVATIVE CHURCH. Both of these books help people who have since become Progressive but want to remain Christian or spiritually positive. Now to address Aletheia. You are right about the K.Hall song's being morbid or opressive. What about that one that goes, "LET"S WATCH HOW WE WALK AND WATCH HOW WE TALk..THUS STUMBLE NONE IN OUR MINISTRY!" This is like the BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU! song

AletheiaRivers: "I KNOW that I couldn't sing the songs at the Kingdom Hall. Yech! JW hymns are so, so, so ... horrible." I agree whole heartedly! They are SO, terrible sounding! The only church that's music is worse is SDA! Followed by the Chrstyle Cathedral! They sound like a mixture of a watz from Mozart's day meets a Walt Disney tune from the 50's meets a Nazi war time march! The JW org is SO very affraid of contemporary sounding music!

Agreed. The passion being displayed by the anti-theist/anti-diests Atheists/Humaists and their hysterics against the I.D. concept surely displays the extreme intolerant left's answer to the religious right. They, like their far religious right foes, want to force 'their' beloved mythos, aka evalution..upon the public...and in my opinion what BOTh extreme sides lack in understanding...is..that is the perents job..nOT the school system to teach beliefs about the possible roots of life and I neither NEITHER evulation NOR ID should be pushed upon our kids or anyone. American society has come to this point where they have come to expect the school systems to raise their children for them..and that's not their job..their job is to teach kids to read and write.....scholastics.

Rick Ross as a collection of testomonies form Ex-Calvary Chapel memebers in which they claim that the CC church places too much reverence on their pastors and that church members don't bother to test of question anything the CC church pastors say or teach and that they claim this like creature worship. This fits the discription of "charismatic church leaders" that cult wareness checklists warn you of. Actually I found this article on a web page written by an Ex-Boston Church of Christ member. The Boston Church of Christ is a break off from the Church of Christ (non-instrumental), which, interestingly, all my cousions belong to who all live in Oklahoma. In the Boston Church of Christ....memebers are pressured with fear tatcicts to bring at least two new prospect converts to the church every two weeks to verify their salvation. I once ran into a gal who was Bostin church of Christ at the beach and she tried to recruite me...it reminded me so much of JW. JW's are, in my opinion, surely guilty of creature worship of their "organization", or that is their "Governing Body". Infact, they teach that their governing Body/"Organization" is the channel before Christ to get to Jehovah God..and that if you question THEm this equals questioning God. This, in turn also reminds me of the devote fundamental catholic who keeps spouting off what their Church fathers and the Vatican has to say on subjects such as birth controll and women in the priesthood. In all of these fundamental church groups, whatever their beloved church leaders have to say is placed on the same level as if...Jesus Christ himself came down here on earth and spoke it.