BrotherRog

I have the following "progressive" stickers on the back of my car: Christian, not closed-minded And I have placed a Jesus fish emblem and a Darwin fish emblem on the center of my bumper, facing each other, lip to lip, "kissing". : )

Priort to Jesus' arrival, it was possible for Jews at least to know who and Whose they are; but without Jesus, we Gentiles wouldn't likely know who we really are: i.e. loved, accepted, and forgiven, Children of God.

IMO, The "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" is a very useful tool for moral and ethical discernment. John Wesley was an priest in the Church of England (and the founder of the Methodist movement) and he added the vital role of Experience to the traditional Anglican "tripodic stool" of Scripture, Tradition, and Reason. So, if one seeks to give full consideration to Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience when they confront a moral dilemma, or seek to ground their theology, etc. one is far more likely to come to a solid and satisfactory result than if they don't. This said, different people may apply these four factors and come to somewhat different conclusions and the same person may apply them and come to a different place later in life than they do now. Thus, this is a living, flexible, and messy process. There is no other way! : )

Because the Chruch typically seeks to create a space that is specifically set aside for reverence and worship, they have historically referred to various parts of their facilities with Churchy terminology to distinguish this space from the secular. For instance: Narthex = lobby (outside of the sanctuary) Sanctuary = the main worship space (aka in secular terms as a hall) Chancel = the stage (the tern stage is too secular and conveys a sense of audience and performer instead of congregation and pastor/preacher) Pulpit = where the larger podium from which the preacher preaches Lecturn = the smaller podium from which the liturgist speaks Altar = the table, usually on the center of the chancel, where the Bible, Cross, and communion elements (bread and wine/juice) are located. There are dozens of other such instances of churchy terminology. I kind of like it myself. It helps demonstrate that the ways of the Church are distinct from the ways of the world/empire.

For what it's worth... This just in: Over 50% of all people that live past the age of 82 will contract Alzheimer's disease. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Gene Therapy Slows Mental Decline from Alzheimer's Contributed by Carla Sharetto | 25 April, 2005 19:27 GMT The human clinical trial was undertaken following extensive studies in primates, which showed that grafting NGF-producing tissue into the brains of aged monkeys restored atrophied brain cells to near-normal size and quantity, and also restored axons, essential for communication between brain cells. Inserting genetically modified tissue directly into the brains of people suffering from Alzheimer's disease slows their rate of cognitive decline and increases metabolic activity in the brain, suggests a study conducted by researchers at the University of California, San Diego (UCSD) School of Medicine. Their findings are published in the April 24 online issue of the journal Nature Medicine. PET scans demonstrated an increase in the brain's use of glucose -- an indication of increased brain activity -- while mental-status tests showed the patients' rate of cognitive decline was reduced by 36 to 51 percent. In addition, researchers examined the brain tissue of a study participant who had died and found robust growth of extensions from the dying cholinergic cells near the site of growth factor gene delivery. Cholinergic neuron loss is a cardinal feature of Alzheimer's disease, a progressive brain disorder affecting memory, learning, attention and other cognitive processes. First Neuro Therapy That Prevents Cell Death "If validated in further clinical trials, this would represent a substantially more effective therapy than current treatments for Alzheimer's disease," said Mark Tuszynski, M.D., Ph.D., UCSD professor of neurosciences, neurologist with the VA San Diego Healthcare System, and the study's principal investigator. "This would also represent the first therapy for a human neurological disease that acts by preventing cell death." In this first-ever gene therapy for Alzheimer's disease, UCSD physician-scientists took skin cells from eight patients diagnosed with early Alzheimer's disease. The tissue was modified in the lab to express nerve growth factor (NGF), a naturally occurring protein that prevents cell death and stimulates cell function. In surgeries that took place in 2001 and 2002 at UCSD's John M. and Sally B. Thornton Hospital, the genetically modified tissue was implanted deep within the brains of the eight patients who had volunteered for the study. The human clinical trial was undertaken following extensive studies in primates conducted by Tuszynski and colleagues, which showed that grafting NGF-producing tissue into the brains of aged monkeys restored atrophied brain cells to near-normal size and quantity, and also restored axons connecting the brain cells, essential for communication between cells. The recent human studies were a Phase I clinical trial, designed to test safety and toxicity. The procedure initially was performed while patients were awake but lightly sedated, and two patients moved as the cells were being injected, resulting in bleeding in the brain. One of these patients died five week later. As a result of the bleeds, the protocol was redesigned to perform the procedure under general anesthesia, and all subsequent procedures were performed without complication. Rate of Decline Reduced Up to 51% Cognitive outcomes were assessed in the six patients who completed the NGF delivery procedure safely. The Mini Mental Status Examination (MMSE), which evaluates cognitive function, was administered at screening, the time of treatment, and at several intervals after treatment. Over an average post-treatment follow-up period of 22 months, the rate of decline on the MMSE among NGF-treated patients was reduced by as much as 51 percent. An additional test, called the Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive Subcomponent, or ADAS-Cog, also showed improvements in rates of decline. Post-operative PET scans in four subjects showed significant increases in the brain's absorption of a radioisotope called 18-fluorodeoxyglucose, an indicator of increased metabolic activity in the brain. The researchers noted that the increase was observed in most cortical regions that receive cholinergic input from forebrain nerve cells called the nucleus basalis, and in the cerebellum, a structure associated with cortical plasticity. Based on the positive findings of this Phase I trial, a new Phase I/II study using direct NGF gene delivery to the brain, thereby eliminating the need for grafting cells, is currently underway at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, sponsored by the San Diego biotechnology company Ceregene, Inc. The Chicago trial is under the direction of David Bennett, M.D., director of the Rush University Alzheimer's Disease Center, and Zoe Arvanitakis, M.D., a Rush neurologist.

In many traditional churches, there are two separate and distinct pieces of furniture on the chancel; i.e. a pulpit (which is usually larger and taller) and a lecturn (which is usually a bit smaller and shorter) - one is at one side of the chancel (stage left or right) and the other is at the other side. This said, more and more churches just have one piece of furntiture which serves both as pulpit and as lecturn depending upon who is using it. ; )

Des, Thank you for sharing this part of yourself with us. May God's amazing, transforming, strenthening, and comforting Grace, Peace, and Love be with you and your family during this difficult time.

Des, I currently serve a suburban United Methodist congregation but have served rural and urban churches too. I may be an enigma in here in that I embrace Decision theology, but I wed it with Process and Liberation theologies.

RE: What's "Decision Theology"? Essentially, it's what Billy Graham et al preach; i.e. that all humans need to be exposed to the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to make the decision to accept this unmerited gift of salvation that God intends for them or not. It's actually very Armininan (Wesleyan) IMO, but the Calvinists can claim it too - they just add the predeterministic caveat that "God knows in advance which persons will choose to accept the gift of salvation or not"... ; ) Re: "High Church, robes, bulletins, etc." FYI, United Methodist congregations vary widely with some being more informal and "low church" and others being very formal and "high church." In my experience, the more rural congregations tend to be low church and the inner city "down town" churches tend to be high church. The suburban congregations are a mixed lot with many offering two types of worship services every Sunday; i.e. a traditional service complete with robes and the use of the organ and a contemporary service where the pastor doesn't wear a robe and the a contemporary praise band is employed. Re: "Lay liturgists, lay pastors, etc." United Methodists most always utilize lay people as liturgists in worship services (i.e. they lead things such as the Call to worship, innovcation/opening prayer, read the Scripture lessons, say prayers before and/or after the offering is taken, etc.). Typically the pastor preaches from the pulpit and the liturgist speaks from the lecturn. However, contemporary services may not use pulpits or lecturns at all. Moreover, U.M.s often rely on the services of a pool of trained lay speakers to help fill in when pastors are ill or on vacation. And, lay pastors are employed to serve as the pastors of smaller congregations which cannot afford to pay for a fully ordained, seminary trained, elder to serve them.

Oops, I forgot one of your questions: Catholics and Episcopalians have a "top down" organizational structure. Prebyterians are congregationalist. What about Lutherans, Methodists or Orthodox? The Lutherans are generally considered to have an episcopal form of church polity, as are the United Methodists. This said, both of these groups have democratic conventions/conferences in which the voice and vote of the laity is highly influential. But, ultimately, it is bishops who actually appiont clergy to congregations. As far as I know, the Eastern Orthodox Churches have an episcopal/top down polity and structure. ---- Other things to share are that pastors/preachers in the Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, and American Baptist Churches are more likely to utilize the lectionary readings of the Bible as the basis of their sermons than are preachers in Southern Baptist, fundamentalist, or independent churches. Moreover the same can be said about how those churches tend to interpret the Bible; i.e. that first grouping of denominations is more likely to interpret the Bible in a non-literal manner than are the Southern Baptists, fundamentalists, and independent churches. Finally, the Southern Baptists, fundamentalists, and independent churches are more likely to pour lots of intentional energy and money into evangelism than are than that larger listing of mainline denominations - again, in my experience and in my opinion.

RE: Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics and Methodists perform infant baptism. Do Presbyterians? Yes Catholics, Lutherans and Episcopalians have Communion at each service. Methodists and Presbyterians once a month. However, certain Methodist and Presb. congregations may elect/opt to have communion at a given Sunday worship service every week. Lutherans have 2 sacraments. Catholics have 7 sacraments. What about Episcopalians, Methodists and Presbyterians? Any at all? Yes, All Protestant Churches have 2 sacraments; i.e. "the two that Jesus engaged in Himself" Baptism and Communion. Lutherans, Episcopalians and Methodists ordain women. Do Presbyterians or Orthodox? PCUSA does, conservative Presbys may not. Orthodox notCatholics and Episcopalians have a "top down" organizational structure. Prebyterians are congregationalist. What about Lutherans, Methodists or Orthodox? Is the UCC Methodist? No, United Church of Christ (formerly Congrgationalists) I know Evangelical Christians are into endtimes stuff and have different views on the tribulation and rapture, etc. Catholics seem to be concerned with the "end of days" stuff too. Are the other traditional groups focused on this aspect of theology as well? Most Methodists and Catholics are amillenialistic, though many congregants have bought into the Left Behind book series craze

1. I'd recommend exploring the helpful info found at www.beliefnet.com 2. Here's a few things to share - in MY opinion: * Lutherans have a lot more in common with Catholics (and visa versa) than either of them care to admit. They both emphasize the importance of the sacraments -esp. Holy communion which they both celebrate/include at all worship services. They both perform infant baptisms and have an episcopal form of polity (church governance and how clergy are appointed). The Lutherans (like all Protestant Chuches) only have 2 sacraments whereas the Catholics have 7 (as do the Mormons, but that's another bag of worms) Lutherans (like most mainline Protestant Churches) also allow their male pastors to be married. The ELCA (most liberal branch) also ordains women. * Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists each perform infant baptisms and they each utilize the episicopal form of church polity. Most ordain women and all allow pastors to be married. Episcopalians tend to be "high church" like the Lutherans and Catholics in that they celebrate Holy Communion at every worship service. They (like the Lutherans and Catholics) also tend to preach shorter sermons than the Methodists or Presbyterians do - this is linked to the fact that the Presbyterians and Methodists tend to only celebrate Communion once a month and thus, they have longer sermons. A minor difference between mainline denominiations is that the UCC and the Presbyterians tend to say "debts and debtors" in the Lord's Prayer whereas the Methodists and Baptists tend to say "treaspasses".. Each of the groups mentioned thus far baptize infants as the norm whereas the Baptists only perform "believers baptisms" (and yet the age of "consent" may be as low as 7 years of age- so its practically a moot point as a 7 year old's understaning of sin isn't much different than an infants (IMO). Baptists, UCC, and Presbyterians have a "congregational" form of polity; i.e. local congregations hire anf fire their pastors instead of having them appointed to them via Bishops (episcopal polity). I don't wish to be go too much deeper with this as I fear I'd end up painting with too broad a brush. Each of those denominations has various subsets (synods, etc). and some are more liberal or conservative than others. Hope this helps!

I mean no offense, I merely share my opinion. IMO, the Unity Church is a New-age-Christianity Lite hybrid. I've read lots of their tracts and I was stunned at the amount of theological gymnastics therein (redefining words to meet their agenda, etc.).

Actually war is still very much relevant to all of this. Fact: Every modern war has resulted in far more innocent civilians being killed than military combatants. This is a known reality and it is true even in the supposedly "surgically precise" war with Iraq that the U.S. just engaged in. When civilians have bombs/missles hurled at them and/or die due to starvation, it is NOT a case of "kill or be killed" as they have no ability to strike back at those who are causing their deaths.

Well, here's a thought: John 3:16 - For God so loved the world (cosmos) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.. Note that it doesn't merely say that God loved "humanity", but rather, cosmos; i.e. the earth and all of Creation for that matter..

FYI.. Here's a helpful link: The Center for Process Studies - A Relational Worldview for the ... The Center for Process Studies was founded in 1973 to encourage exploration of the relevance of process thought, which is based on the philosophy of Alfred ... http://www.ctr4process.org

========== I have that book and have met and interatcted with Dr. Mesle. It's a very good primer and probably the most readable Process intro. out there. I prefer Marjorie Hewit Suchoki's God, Christ, Church: An Introduction to Process Theology. Mesle is an atheist (thus far) and this skews him somewhat as ultimately, he's a process philosopher, not a theologian, IMO.

I like Centering Prayer (20-40mins/day). I also engage in fasting; lectio divina; gardening; running; and playing with my dog and my child as part of my spiritual disciplines. When I have time, I play the trumpet as part of my prayer life.

In my experience, "emerging" churches tend to be more moderate than truly progressive. That said, there are some progressive churches across the U.S.

Though not a Catholic myself, I admired the past pope's dogged consistancy and bold use of his seat of power - esp. re: the following! ; ) ========== Pope John Paul II calls War a Defeat for Humanity: Neoconsevative ... ... La Repubblica that the Pope's high-profile opposition to a war on Iraq has... George Weigel, arguing against the Pope that a war on Iraq would be just ... http://www.cjd.org/paper/jp2war.html BBC NEWS | Europe | Pope warns against Iraq war Pope John Paul II makes a Christmas plea to avoid a war in Iraq as UN weapons inspectors visit more suspect Iraqi sites. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2605367.stm Pope appeals to Blair against Iraq war ... Pope appeals to Blair against Iraq war Pope John Paul II held a private audience on Saturday with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, offering the ... http://www.cathnews.com/news/302/121.php Pope says Iraq war threatens humanity ... Pope Says War in Iraq Threatens Fate of Humanity (Voice of America) ... Pope Prays for Iraq War Victims (Voice of America) ... http://www.cathnews.com/news/303/124.php Pope Presses Bush on Iraq Violence (washingtonpost.com) ... Pope Presses Bush on Iraq Violence Pontiff Mixes Personal Praise, ... Iraq and in the Holy Land," said John Paul, an ardent critic of the war in Iraq. ... http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/articles/A14823-2004Jun4.html

Whether he is dead or alive at this time, this Protestant will pray for Karol Wojtyla (I have no role for "popes" in my understanding of Church) - as part of my prayers for the rest of the sickly people in the world. This said, who will replace the pope? Here are the candidates and their opinions on Catholic issues: http://www.cardinalrating.com/sort_country.htm I hope that the next pope finally issues approval of contraception and will allow priests to get married and/or allow women to be ordained.

As I see it, here are some of the good things (blessings?), that may come from the Schiavo family/national media orgy fiasco: 1. More citizens (and families) are now thinking about hospice care, living wills, and their intentions and preferences for their last days. 2. More citizens/families are now aware of, and talking about, the danger of bulimia and other eating disorders (the cause of Terri's condition). 3. More citizens/families are realizing the limits of politics and appealing to the Government to address personal human affairs. They are also increasing in their awareness of civics - and of the propensity for politicians to grandstand and exploit things for political gain. 4. And, with Jesse Jackson entering the fray, this has (ironically) presented an olive branch that seems to help repair the great divide between liberals and conservatives in this polarized nation. --- All, told, while a tragic life, a rather productive death if you ask me. : )

Here's another resource I just discovered: http://www.progressivetheology.org/quotes.html http://www.progressivetheology.org

RE: the "fish in the sea" analogy. My current visual image for God is something akin to a giant cosmic amoeba; i.e. a being that is distinct from Creation and yet fully able to surround all of it and yet has permeable boundaries. Granted, this image doesn't "preach" very well - so I tend to keep it to myself.. ; )

Jeep, have you ever read Romans 8:31-39?