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Joshua Nunn

Mel Gibson's "passion Of The Christ"

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That little part at that "Last Supper" where Jesus dips his bread with Judas?(Matthew 26:20) Very significant (put this under the heading of the things they didn't teach you in Sunday School) THere is significant meaning to sharing a meal with someone in the Middle East, and the dipping of the bread is also signficant as the person becomes a brother, if you will, for life. Essentially Jesus is forgiving Judas for what he is about to do.

 

I'm afraid that is the best I can explain it, but Judas isn't the bad guy. It has been 10 years!

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That little part at that "Last Supper" where Jesus dips his bread with Judas?(Matthew 26:20) Very significant (put this under the heading of the things they didn't teach you in Sunday School)  THere is significant meaning to sharing a meal with someone in the Middle East, and the dipping of the bread is also signficant as the person becomes a brother, if you will, for life.  Essentially Jesus is forgiving Judas for what he is about to do. 

 

I'm afraid that is the best I can explain it, but Judas isn't the bad guy.  It has been 10 years!

 

 

I would agree entirely with the point about Judas. Jesus would have forgiven Judas - and if some Christians are to be believed - in many ways Judas was doing us all a favour by setting up Jesus to die for our sins.

 

 

anyway, I wrote an article on Gibson's film which can be found here

 

http://www.openmindedchristian.hostignitio...edyofyeshua.htm

 

all the best

 

matt

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I agree about Judas - it reads to me as if Jesus was choosing him. Thanks for the article link Matt. Very thoughtful!

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Thanks, Matt for the link. I have so many childish questions concerning Jesus and his life. I will just keep reading for now, tho........... :rolleyes:

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"Thanks, Matt for the link. I have so many childish questions concerning Jesus and his life. I will just keep reading for now, tho........... "

 

 

Ask away - something about coming to God like a little child.... :) Around here, the simple questions often attract the most thought-provoking discussions!!

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Dear Kiat,

 

Your opinion is well deserved. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of Christ. I'm not going to pretend otherwise.

 

But you can't judge a system by those who cause harm in its name. If you did, nothing that exists today would be worthwhile. People abuse not just Christianity, but other beliefs such as democracy. Just because democracy has had terrible things happen in its name doesn't mean we should stop democracy does it?

 

I also want to point out that Jesus taught love. He said He came to fulfill the law of God and He did so by saying love God, then love others. If a person claims they are Christian and does not love, they are not properly following Christianity.

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Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ" was a sadistic bloody awful Hollywood nighmare creep show sold as "religious" and produced and directed by what had to be a twisted and sick mind. It reflects everything that is wrong with fundamentalist Christianity and reinforces the idea of "human sacrifice". I reject the notion that a blood thirsty 'Father' set up his son for execution and a bloody murder for the sins that I hadn't committed yet.When we see those old movies where the natives or primitives have to sacrifice a virgin to the volcano God, we think that is pretty wild and an ancient ignorant idea. But yet the same idea of blood sacrifice to appease an angry punishing male God in the sky is the cornerstone of fundamentalist Christianity.

 

Jesus went to the cross because he taught compassion for the poor,helped the disenfrachised,fed the hungry, and defended the outcasts. The religious powers and the governmental powers saw him as a threat and executed him,just like Martin Luther King and Gahndi were killed. 30 to 100 years later his followers had to explain the crucifiction in the only way they knew, so they made it an analogy to the ancient Jewish idea of the lamb for sacrifice on passover. Mel gibson just exploited the whole idea with a sick movie.

 

By the way, I hear Apocalypto" is even sicker and bloodier with even more human sacrifice. Do you think Mel Gibson might have a few issues to deal with? Some issues surrounding God and blood sacrifice that accompany his substance abuse and paranoria? Only the difference between him and you and I is he has the money to put his torment out there on the screen.

 

Also, what does that say about our society that we are flocking to see "Apocalyto" in droves?

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Jim:

 

As much as I'd like to agree with you wholeheartedly, reality bites.

 

There is sacrificial death and suffering in the world because a portion of those in control will it to be so. The myth of Jesus' sacrifice for us is much the same as the mass murdering going on in Palestine, Iraq, and Darfur. The former is an icon in literary history of how it is possible for the whole to be rescued if only the people might mostly believe in peace and love over time. The latter cases are real contemporary historical facts that attack us who are believers with disgusting and degrading images and sounds of what death and suffering are about.

 

For my part I choose not to spend my money to watch Gibson's films, for IMO he is a foolish man as was his father. But he's got lots of money and power so he can express his versions of history and reality at his whim.

 

Not much of the peace/love belief system is working at all these days, especially in focus points of secular power. It is engendered by the pursuit of wealth and the lust for power and control of the lives of the less fortunate, and I don't see an end to it soon if at all because that is at the root of the problems here.

 

We're being tested and the testing will likely increase in intensity, IMO. Best to buckle up for safety maybe. It's going to be a wild ride. Over on CR where I post quite a bit, many from differing viewpoints and faiths are intimating that a tribulation is beginning. I don't know about that...but something large is bubbling its way to the surface of things in the world.

 

Always remember that He said that the way to the truth is hard and narrow.

 

flow.... :blink:

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Dear Jim,

 

Forgive my ignorance, but if Jesus didn't die for our sins, then how do we receive forgiveness?

 

The way I see it is this:

-God is holy. This means He is perfect in every way and pure with no evil even being admitted into His presence

-we constantly fall short of God's will. This is called sinning. Sinning is just like a crime, except against God. And as with any crime, there has to be a punishment.

-But God, in His mercy, wanted to free us from that punishment we deserve

-So He sent His son to die for us and take the punishment

-that is why only through Jesus is their forgiveness of sins

 

This is not a pleasant thought. Someone suffereing a brutal and agonizing death. But Jesus was fully aware of His purpose on earth and chose to die for us, because He knew the result. God the Father also didn't relish in His son's death. It was with a heavy heart that He sent Jesus. Finally, the death of Jesus wasn't the end of it all. The most important part of His death was His resurrection. He conquered death so that we might conquer death through Him.

 

So in your opinion, how do we receive forgiveness of sins? And on a side note: do you believe that Jesus was the Son of God, both man and divine?

 

I hope you take the time to answer and educate me!

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So who metes out this punishment? Is it God? Does God send people to the most terrible place

you couldn't even imagine for sins (or even for not accepting Jesus into your heart as your Lord and

Savior).? These sins might be not really too big in the grand scheme of things or they can be really big.

But it doesn't much matter. And what about those people who are born somewhere else, or at some other time? Does God have mercy on them?

 

Another thing is that God sent his supposed Son to a kind of human sacrifice. (This is the same God that sent the flood so maybe. Of course I don't believe in the flood, or at least that one.) Ok, so it didn't end

up so bad.

 

Or is God merely impotent to stop you going to hell for these things? And if God is impotent to

stop it how is he Omnipotent?

 

This kind of God is not a very attractive figure, imo. He punishes people by sending them to hell for some personal beliefs (not really actions as you can do horrendous things as long as at some point you accept Jesus into your heart). And he is either impotent to stop this or is actually doing himself. I also don't buy the idea that just because we fall short of perfection we deserve punishment. No human court of law would ever punish ANYBODY to eternal damnation in a firey hell. This means to me that our own moral sense would be better than God's is. This seems highly illogical.

 

 

I actually think there is something in the story that is more interesting (to me anyway). Jesus forgives his captors--even though they do this horrendous things, he forgives his crossmates (?!), he forgives God. Maybe instead of meaning to tell us that Jesus has forgiven us for all possible sins, he means that we should forgive others ourselves. We ourselves don't get an easy out-- we attempt to do justice and so forth.

We are by definition not perfect.

 

 

--des

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Des, you are a child. I don't mean that in a demening way, I mean it seriously. We are all children of God. If we think that the 'be all and end all' is with us, then yes, God doesn't really make sense. But what happens if we aren't at the top. What happens if there is something above us?

 

The best analogy is the one God uses Himself. God is our father and we are His children. True, it is different from a human relationship between parent and child, but the basis still stands.

 

Does a parent let his/her child do whatever they want? No. Does a parent set down a bunch of rules for the child's own good? Yes. Then, does a parent punish his/her child? Yes. Does the child often think that the rules are unfair? Of course! Why? Because they child only thinks of themself or their own happiness.

 

Does God send people to hell? Yes. Does he enjoy it? No. Just as a parent doesn't (or shouldn't) enjoy punishing their children. Do we have a choice in the matter? Yes. You describe God as if He should let us do whatever we want. As if He is cruel and inhumane for punishing us. You get to decide whether you obey or not. You also suggest that perhaps God is impotent because people go to hell. God gave us free choice. And He won't override that free choice. So, no, He isn't going to force us to do anything.

 

You talk of personal belief as if you are entitled to believe whatever you want and no one can tell you otherwise. Well, we're all stuck with each other, so our "personal" believes affect people other than ourselves. If are all to get along, there has to be some sort of standard. Without that, there is only anarchy. God is that standard. You can't get mad at the justice system for punishing you for killing someone just because you thought they had it coming. It's your personal belief the person had it coming, but it's irrelevant. There is more to life and morality than just one person.

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Jutan:

 

Welcome to TCPC.

 

If I may interject, it seems to me that your beliefs and interpretations of what G-d is and does are rather primitive and archaic. You are also somewhat new to this forum. I respectfully suggest that you avail yourself of some of the writings of Bishop Spong, Jim Warren, James Adams, and perhaps M. Scott Peck to broaden your perspectives. The library section of this website will also give you access to a broad range of materials that might broaden your viewpoint, which seems rather narrowly focused to me, and mostly upon concepts of punishment for perceived transgressions.

 

Besides, many of us here are former participants in Orthodox and/or fundamentalist belief groups ,and what you are preaching is really pretty old hat to our ears...in fact you might say it's a set of rigid and inflexible beliefs that have...in the main...not adapted themselves to the new realities of the world that we each have to deal with each day that we go on. As a consequence these concepts have become and are becoming increasingly irrelevant to our lives. Many of us are here to find new and still relevant ways to believe in G-d and the miracles of saving activities that happen through our beliefs. Just because they differ significantly from what you believe doesn't mean that they are wrong beliefs; and besides, current events and history continue to prove every day just how destructive rigid and inflexible human behavior patterns are to the real world that we all must live in.

 

flow.... ;)

Edited by flowperson

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Jutan, I dislike mel Gibson and "Passion of the Christ" so much that I forgot to welcome you . Flowperson did a nice job of welcoming you,though. I have only been around a few months myself so I will have to adjust to the idea that to a new person, I might represent the forum.

 

Yes I think Jesus was God's Son, both human and divine, and so am I and so are you.I don't beleive, he is God the Creator, he is God's creation.We both use the same Bible and see different things. I see "Equality (with God) is not a thing to be grasped","The Kingdom of God is within" and when asked about miracles he was performing , Jesus said we could do this and more if we had faith. It is my job to be "Christlike" and achieve what Jesus did. Jesus "shows me the way", and Buddha and others were "way showers" too. I choose Jesus to show me my path. we are all God's children. God doesn't want to murder any of us.

 

As far as sin goes, there are no sins only mistakes. We don't need to ask God for forgiveness,because there is nothing to forgive. We were created perfect by a perfect being.

 

God is love. The hateful male God in the sky that punishes and burns people up and had his Son brutally murdered after telling us that "Thou Shalt not Kill' is a God created by man. He is a God made in our own image, murderous, vain, jealous, and unpredictable. The message of traditional

Chritianity is insane. For even after having sent his son to be murdered for sins that I hadn't committed yet, I still have to believe x,y, and z or receive certain sacraments or He is still going to burn me in hell for eternity. So if I get burned in hell for eternity anyway beacuse I din't believe x,y. and z, then Jesus didn't really die for my sins, did he? Using that model I would still get punished for eternity for not having the correct "point of view".

 

Jesus gave us two great commandments, the Hebrew Bible has ten, and the entire scripture is basically about the golden rule, yet traditional Chritianity tells me God is going to murder me anyway becasue I don't have the 'correct point of view" or I don't talk in tongues or I don't perform the correct sacraments.

It is all nonsense. it is all man made. Made by a man who hates and fears God.

 

I love God. God loves me. He is not going to murder me and he didn't murder Jesus. People murdered Jesus, not God. True freedom in Christ is knowing that God is all love and realizing you have nothing to fear.

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Jutan,

>Des, you are a child. I don't mean that in a demening way, I mean it seriously. We are all children of God. If we think that the 'be all and end all' is with us, then yes, God doesn't really make sense. But what happens if we aren't at the top. What happens if there is something above us?

 

The questions I ask are quite rhetorical. I will buy into the great mystery. But what I wouldn't buy into

is that "God doesn't really make logical sense", therefore "he" can do whatever he wants. Kill thousands of innocent people in the Great Flood-- fine. It doesn't make sense. (Of course, I don't believe in the

literal event.) Making sense from a human standpoint isn't absolutely necessary, but at least God

should have superior moral standards when put up against mere humans.

 

>Does a parent let his/her child do whatever they want? No. Does a parent set down a bunch of rules for the child's own good? Yes. Then, does a parent punish his/her child? Yes. Does the child often think that the

rules are unfair? Of course! Why? Because they child only thinks of themself or their own happiness.

 

Of course, and some parents, as we know are incapable. Some parents abuse their children, for instance tying them to a potty seat for having accidents; hitting them with chains; or locking them in cages. Is God an incapable parent? Because as you define "him" "he" is.

 

For instance:

 

>Does God send people to hell? Yes. Does he enjoy it? No. Just as a parent doesn't (or shouldn't) enjoy punishing their children. Do we have a choice in the matter? Yes.

 

So God created hell (or allowed it somehow) and sends people to it for basically, now I am not

sure you believe this but for not accepted Jesus into their hearts (however you define this). This is my sister's, who is a born-again type believer's basic message. So eternally,

forever and ever, "he" would send people to a place of unending misery and torment--something I doubt even the Nazis were capable of. The Dalai Lama, who is Buddhist and has, all his life taught compassion, goes to hell, but Pat Robertson who has lead a different sort of life, but is Christian, goes to

heaven. There is just something profoundly insane in that view!!! :-}

 

 

> You describe God as if He should let us do whatever we want. As if He is cruel and inhumane for punishing us. You get to decide whether you obey or not. You also suggest that perhaps God is impotent because people go to hell. God gave us free choice. And He won't override that free choice. So, no, He isn't going to force us to do anything.

 

I don't think I really described God at all. I think God is beyond the limits of human comprehension and not describable, but what I do believe is that God is better than we are. A better than we are God would not have worse morals than humans do.

 

I do not believe in a God that would be cruel and inhuman. If I believed in a hell, I would believe that the crime would fit the punishment so that maybe the genocidal killers in Darfur would get hell. And my less than outstanding sins would, I don't know, warrant a slap with a wet noodle or something. :-)

Yes, we all fall short. But that's what it means to be human. I don't think our mere humanity is so horrible.

I think that the acts of some individuals (and groups) is.

 

>You talk of personal belief as if you are entitled to believe whatever you want and no one can tell you otherwise.

 

Believe yes. Act, no.

 

> Well, we're all stuck with each other, so our "personal" believes affect people other than ourselves.

 

Only actions affect others. Beliefs have no affect on others.

 

>If are all to get along, there has to be some sort of standard. Without that, there is only anarchy. God is that standard.

 

Yes, and you see where that "standard" is going. A world where people are killing each other over their views of Truth. It's liberals that want to talk to our enemies and not kill them.

 

> You can't get mad at the justice system for punishing you for killing someone just because you thought they had it coming. It's your personal belief the person had it coming, but it's irrelevant. There is more to life and morality than just one person.

 

 

Oh absolutely. I would never/do not believe that you can do what you ever you want. And I would contend that to have a moral system you need not be religious at all. You could be an atheist. Go read Sam Harris'

End of Faith. I don't think you would like it. I disagreed with a lot/much of what he says, but I would be hard pressed to say that he lacked as rigorous a moral system as anybody else.

 

We might disagree with what those moral standards are. I, for instance, might place a higher standard on

what we are doing to the Earth in making it un/less livable. And you seem to believe homosexuality is wrong. But I think we could come up with a core set of things from across multiple cultures and values and just about everyone on Earth would say they were right or wrong. I think the Golden Rule is a good place to start as any.

 

So what would happen if we fall too short. I don't have an answer as I am basically agnostic (ignorant of/

not able to be aware of) what comes next or later. Does whatever goes around comes around occur ala

a karmic system? Is there reincarnation? Do the sins of the fathers get passed to the children?

I personally don't feel it matters much. What matters are our own actions in the here and now.

We can definitely make this world better or worse. We can do justice, act compassionately, etc.

 

BTW, I might not read any more on this topic. Or I'll try not to. Thing is, it is really impossible to argue this. Either you believe it or you don't. I think a lot of us have some kind of background with this type of view of the world, so you aren't introducing anything at all new. I personally have a sister who has been on this for awhile.

 

It's one thing to want to know our position, but it seems that you are really more interested in changing it.

 

 

 

--des

Edited by des

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Well Des, you were right. I did come here to change people's minds. I thought I could out argue anyone etc. etc. I can't do it though. We are simply not operating on the same understanding of God and the Bible. So I'm going to finish with a couple thoughts. Do with them what you wish.

 

I find your belief bizarre. You want to take certain aspects of God's character and not others. You want to pick and choose things to believe so that they fit what you think life should be. You believe that God loves everyone so therefore He shouldn't punish people eternally. We're all human, so hey! We can do whatever we want and that's okay. But wait. We can't. I get both responses, but no real coherence.

 

I think the point that we fundamentally disagree on is you think this life is about you. It's about your needs, your beliefs, your world, your morality, your god, how you treat peopel, how people treat you. It's not about you. Practically, you're only somewhat important to a tiny fraction of the world's population and can only hope to affect a tiny fraction. This creation is about God. That doesn't mean to say God doesn't love us and care for us even though we are so insignificant. If you want to find the real God you have to look outside yourself and your opinions. If you seek truth, you will find God. If you seek believes that make you feel better about yourself and satisfy your perceived needs, you will find some god I suppose. I challenge you to humble yourself before your creator and ask Him for truth. You don't have to. It's not going to affect my life. But if you feel not right about your life and this world, go seek your Father for if you seek with sincerity you will find.

 

I've suffered for years with addiction. It was only through my "archaic" believes that I found a freedom and peace. It's such a pity I got it all wrong.

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Jutan - I (and probably most of the people who frequent this board as we've discussed this in the past) am glad that you found God on any terms and that your life has been enriched. God is amazing and contact with Him is so overwhelming and wonderful that I fully appreciate your desire to share that.

 

You are right re: this being about God, not about us. So, (with a gentle smile and soft voice) might I suggest that focusing on changing other people's beliefs robs you of time and energy to show people how your beliefs effect your life and interactions. St. Francis of Assissi said it best, "Preach the gospel always. If necessary, use words". :P

 

You're welcome to participate in the discussions here. You may find them more interesting down the road. Religion points the way to God but, unfortunately, many people are injured by groups who put the rules ahead of following God and forget that the rules were made to point to God. It's a common human error. :)

 

Godspeed.

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>I think the point that we fundamentally disagree on is you think this life is about you. It's about your needs, your beliefs, your world, your morality, your god, how you treat peopel, how people treat you. It's not about you. Practically, you're only somewhat important to a tiny fraction of the world's population and can only hope to affect a tiny fraction. This creation is about God. That doesn't mean to say God doesn't love us and care for us even though we are so insignificant. If you want to find the real God you have to look outside yourself and your opinions. If you seek truth, you will find God. If you seek believes that make you feel better about yourself and satisfy your perceived needs, you will find some god I suppose. I challenge you to humble yourself before your creator and ask Him for truth. You don't have to. It's not going to affect my life. But if you feel not right about your life and this world, go seek your Father for if you seek with sincerity you will find.

 

 

Jutan, well I couldn't stay away. And I appreciate that my ideas must seem odd to you. Believe me when I say that the ideas of fundamentalists are just as bizarre to me, and even offensive. You are not allowed

on this board, by the rules, to try and convert. See above which I have quoted: (posts should be ) "presented in a manner that is respectful of other viewpoints, or seeks to convert, or coerce, or attack. "

You come as a guest. I'm not the guest.

 

I feel you are close to crossing the line. What would give you the idea that I only think life is about me?

Because I disagree with your fundamentalist view?

 

I believe we are profoundly interconnected. We're not only interconnected to God, but to each other, other creatures, and the planet. My feeling of that is as strong as anything you believe. I think you may be used to saying this as a clique response to whenever someone disagrees with you. However, I said several things that I don't believe it is all about me-- about beliefs of other faiths (or no faith), responses to justice in the world, and the Earth's well being, etc. But I am offended by your comments. You don't know me or anything aside from a small sampling of my beliefs. So quit looking at your cliques, when they clearly do not apply. Jesus said "Judge not". I sure believe that.

 

 

 

--des

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Mel Gibson's "Passion of the Christ" was a sadistic bloody awful Hollywood nighmare creep show sold as "religious" and produced and directed by what had to be a twisted and sick mind.

 

Your comments are too kind. It was a combination of homoerotic and sadistic pornography of violence - a constant in many Gibson movies, including his newest.

 

This thread was interesting with the intervention of a fundamentalist, what was that about.

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>Your comments are too kind. It was a combination of homoerotic and sadistic pornography of violence - a constant in many Gibson movies, including his newest.

 

I saw the trailers and that was quite enough for my stomach and brain. The addition of anti-Semitic

elements , I can't comment from my own viewing-- at least from what I read, was a nasty addition.

 

>This thread was interesting with the intervention of a fundamentalist, what was that about.

 

Gosh, I don't know. The thread was sort of already long dead, and he apparently was reading very old threads in the archive. This film was a big hit among fundamentalists who seemed to view attack of it, as some kind of anti-Christian statement.

 

It's interesting that an administration with a fundamentalist base is supporting torture (signing the McCain bill was a lie, when George Bush did the most unconstitutional thing of a "signing statement" sayng he would basically follow it if convenient), given what was done to Jesus.

 

 

 

--des

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