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JosephM

Who are you?

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Do you use a story or your experience to define yourself? Father, husband, accountant, etc.

Are you your mind? Are you your physical body?

Are you a product of society and what your mind believes?

Or are you something else?

What do you say.......     Who do you say you are?

 

 

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Yes.  I am also a spiritual being that may be chosen to continue beyond the existence of the listed components.

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On 9/28/2018 at 8:50 PM, JosephM said:

Do you use a story or your experience to define yourself? Father, husband, accountant, etc.

Are you your mind? Are you your physical body?

Are you a product of society and what your mind believes?

Or are you something else?

What do you say.......     Who do you say you are?

Interesting questions.

I experience and think of myself (and all others) as mind and body (at least for now, in this 'stage' of being).

I am influenced by society but not a blank slate to be filled, so not a product of society. I am not merely what my mind believes as I believe my mind meets reality. 

I tell a story that encompasses some of my experiences to 'define' myself.

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I think we all use stories and experience to define ourselves and I think myself, as an organism made up of muscle, tissue, atoms, neurons etc, would define myself differently if I grew up next door, or around the corner,or in another culture, but I would still be the same me.

I think we are physical body with consciousness being an product of that physicality.  Take away the physicality and the consciousness cannot exist.

I am definitely a product of society but that product does not mirror society in every single detail (but I think at best society can only be defined in broad parameters as not every person within one society will agree 100% of what that society represents). 

What my mind believes is shaped by everything external to it.

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15 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think we all use stories and experience to define ourselves and I think myself, as an organism made up of muscle, tissue, atoms, neurons etc, would define myself differently if I grew up next door, or around the corner,or in another culture, but I would still be the same me.

I think we are physical body with consciousness being an product of that physicality.  Take away the physicality and the consciousness cannot exist.

I am definitely a product of society but that product does not mirror society in every single detail (but I think at best society can only be defined in broad parameters as not every person within one society will agree 100% of what that society represents). 

What my mind believes is shaped by everything external to it.

Concerning the sentence I made bold: in the copy of your post:     Interesting. I see it the other way around. To me,  Physicality would not exist without consciousness. I know Descartes said I think, therefor I am but in my experience, I am is primordial. I am therefor I think, in my view,  would be more correct.

Joseph

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8 hours ago, JosephM said:

Concerning the sentence I made bold: in the copy of your post:     Interesting. I see it the other way around. To me,  Physicality would not exist without consciousness. I know Descartes said I think, therefor I am but in my experience, I am is primordial. I am therefor I think, in my view,  would be more correct.

Joseph

Possibly so Joseph, but it just seems a bit too God-of-the-gaps like for me.

When somebody's physicality ends, I see no sign of their consciousness existing (or THE consciousness existing), yet I know there are times when I have no consciousness (sleep) but I still have physicality (I'm still physical alive and operating).  Other people can even monitor this and see that although I am not conscious, my brain is alive and active.

Now you can say perhaps that consciousness is driving the brain in that unconscious state I guess, but I'm not sure what evidence or support you could offer other than how you feel about it.

So perhaps you are right.  Perhaps also, one day science will take another step forward and reveal a little more about consciousness.

 

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3 hours ago, PaulS said:

Possibly so Joseph, but it just seems a bit too God-of-the-gaps like for me.

When somebody's physicality ends, I see no sign of their consciousness existing (or THE consciousness existing), yet I know there are times when I have no consciousness (sleep) but I still have physicality (I'm still physical alive and operating).  Other people can even monitor this and see that although I am not conscious, my brain is alive and active.

Now you can say perhaps that consciousness is driving the brain in that unconscious state I guess, but I'm not sure what evidence or support you could offer other than how you feel about it.

So perhaps you are right.  Perhaps also, one day science will take another step forward and reveal a little more about consciousness.

 

Paul,

I can understand your view especially since consciousness is not really a visible thing nor does it require  thinking to be present. I certainly could offer no evidence other than some of what you already mentioned and some would say that scientifically it is no more than conjecture. However, since i perceive that very subtle presence even without thought which some might classify more accurately as a feeling,  to me there is no internal debate going on in mind on its eternal existence which is not separated from what we call others and view as separate in our evolved thinking mind but in reality is One. It seems to me the more one identifies with mind as in the physical brain, the more difficult it is to perceive.

In actuality i think you will find God is in the gaps of thinking so to speak. Being thusly,  thinking to me cannot resolve the issue nor offer proof. Such a conundrum! 😉😉

Joseph

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8 hours ago, JosephM said:

However, since i perceive that very subtle presence even without thought which some might classify more accurately as a feeling,  to me there is no internal debate going on in mind on its eternal existence which is not separated from what we call others and view as separate in our evolved thinking mind but in reality is One. It seems to me the more one identifies with mind as in the physical brain, the more difficult it is to perceive.

In actuality i think you will find God is in the gaps of thinking so to speak. Being thusly,  thinking to me cannot resolve the issue nor offer proof. Such a conundrum! 😉😉

 

I would wonder if your 'feeling' without thought, could indeed be your mind and subconsciousness presenting such.  I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that the millions and millions of bits of data your mind has collated over the years has been processed in such a way that your consciousnesses has now arrived at this point.  Your feeling that all is One could simply be the process of the mind doing its job and presenting its conclusions.  Naturally that would be very convincing because that's the nature of the mind.  I simply don't think we know enough yet about how the mind works to nail how it comes together and does what it does as a result of the physicality of the brain, but for me it seems more likely that we will get to that point than we will discover that somehow our mind or spirit is separate to our physicality.  Of course I could be wrong.

But I question whether thinking cannot resolve the issue - I mean thinking is what has resulted in most challenges to previous ways of thinking and often resulted in new evidence or new ways forward.  So maybe continuing to think about this matter will one day result in some new thoughts that drive us down a new path and reveal new answers to just how consciousness works precisely.  For me, I think that is more likely than discovering that consciousness comes from somewhere external to the human body.  But, more than happy to be corrected when such evidence is discovered.

Presently, what makes the most sense to me is that our mind, our consciousness only exists along with our physicality.  Just as my consciousness didn't exists before I was born, I don't expect it to survive after I die.  I am my consciousness, which as me, will cease to exist when the neural pathways of my brain cease to function.  I think. :)

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Paul,

I see it as the physical mind which separates. It is not the mind that itself sees all is One. The mind feeds on separateness for fear of death which is inevitable for it. It is a creation, a manifestation of consciousness and has no real permanent reality itself.. It  thinks it is separate from others. Hence the only separation between us is in your mind.

Essentially the physical mind is a tool that through evolution  has taken on an identity of its own as if it is you. Consciousness in the manner i speak of it is not thought or the identity the physical mind has taken on.. It is Life itself. Thought is merely a product of consciousness as is the body and is not consciousness itself. Joseph came into being as an identity in the thinking mind some 70+ earth years ago as a creation. Before that he was not and after physical death he is not. Yet there was never a time when "I" was not. There is no exterior or interior except to the physical mind. Consciousness has no locality. The proof is in the pudding. 😄😄 and the gaps.... Reside there and see 😄

Just another conundrum to ponder on as everything is energy and reality as one sees it is nothing but a persistant  illusion. (not real).... ha...  and that's scientific quantum physics proof.

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Ok so here is my post to the question .... Who am I?

i have a body and a mind and a story which are all conditioned and to perish with the using. If I identify Self as these things I will be subject to these things and what most humans consider the ills associated with being subject to them. This will continue through chapters of what we refer to as time whether in or out of body until we come to the knowledge of who or what we are. Who are we? We are One mind experienced as an evolving energy tree of creation with many branches and leaves all connected and interdependent yet not necessarily perceived as such because of identification to a part of the whole. How and why it evolved as such are questions that arise from that perceived separateness and misidentification which is but illusion. When realization occurs there is an identity shift in consciousness to the One which in reality is all there is. All in All.   It is without words or questions or locality or time which are all to perish as manifestations or changing energy patterns of the  Unmanifest. So who am I?  I am not the things you see and we are the same.

Joseph

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10 hours ago, JosephM said:

Ok so here is my post to the question .... Who am I?

i have a body and a mind and a story which are all conditioned and to perish with the using. If I identify Self as these things I will be subject to these things and what most humans consider the ills associated with being subject to them. This will continue through chapters of what we refer to as time whether in or out of body until we come to the knowledge of who or what we are. Who are we? We are One mind experienced as an evolving energy tree of creation with many branches and leaves all connected and interdependent yet not necessarily perceived as such because of identification to a part of the whole. How and why it evolved as such are questions that arise from that perceived separateness and misidentification which is but illusion. When realization occurs there is an identity shift in consciousness to the One which in reality is all there is. All in All.   It is without words or questions or locality or time which are all to perish as manifestations or changing energy patterns of the  Unmanifest. So who am I?  I am not the things you see and we are the same.

Joseph

Or, it could just be your mind is presenting you with this understanding, rightly or wrongly! :)

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4 hours ago, PaulS said:

Or, it could just be your mind is presenting you with this understanding, rightly or wrongly! :)

One could think that and it is understandable for an enquiring mind to reach that conclusion. In fact it would be difficult for a reasoning mind not to do so. Reasoning in my view, has a God view point that processes abstractions and what one might consider a consciousness level that has a meaningful life view and emotions of an understanding nature. However, without processing revelation it is, my experience,  that one can go no further  toward joy or peace and an understanding that comes not from the mind but rather a knowing  from revelation, transfiguration and illumination that is innate in all  only when one steps beyond the limitations of the reasoning process. I see it as a very difficult barrier to breaK through. So your view in my mind is understandable and there is no fault present.

Joseph

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18 hours ago, JosephM said:

However, without processing revelation it is, my experience,  that one can go no further  toward joy or peace and an understanding that comes not from the mind but rather a knowing  from revelation, transfiguration and illumination that is innate in all  only when one steps beyond the limitations of the reasoning process. I see it as a very difficult barrier to breaK through. So your view in my mind is understandable and there is no fault present.

Perhaps.  But perhaps the 'revelation' you speak of is simply thought that you think is revelation.  From what you have shared since I've known you, I don't think you experienced this 'revelation' you now talk of,  earlier on in your life, did you?  I think you might even agree that you had other 'revelations' earlier in life that you have since discarded. 

Naturally only you can say how these current thoughts make you feel, but from my point of view they seem to be a thought process that you have arrived at over time based on your reasoning, experiences, and the data you have collected (consciously and unconsciously) throughout your life.  

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Paul,

Well, you make a good point. I have had revelations since i was a toddler but was unable to process it with my mind. The revelations never changed but yes my understanding of it has. Revelations are in my experience without words and we use the mind and vocabulary we have at the time to describe them and interpret as best we can. There is never doubt present in the experience, only in ones thoughts afterwards as the conditioned mind attempts to process it in language. So the words indeed change over time but the experience  remains unchanged. It is , at least in my experience , an evolving process in terms of interpretation, but the experiences are complete in themselves and require none.

Joseph

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