Significance or God

[tariki]

There is a deep insight/understanding/revelation in the fact that we cannot know. Why there is an eternal conflict in reason, why there is absolutely no end to the dialectics of reason. Why one must therefore"rise" to another standpoint, one that supercedes all standpoints and views. And simply saying "oh, is that your view/standpoint" simply does not cut it. 

Faith. A dirty word. Misunderstood. Associated with "belief without evidence" and therefore not actually experienced as a complete letting go of all beliefs, views and "positions".

Oh yes, but as Neddy Seagoon once said so eloquently, "everybody gotta be somewhere". 

Thus Dogen:-

"Therefore, if there are fish that would swim or birds that would fly only after investigating the entire ocean or sky, they would find neither path nor place. When we make this very place our own, our practice becomes the actualization of reality (genjōkōan). When we make this path our own, our activity naturally becomes actualized reality (genjōkōan)."

 And from Saichi's Journals:-

Not knowing why! Not knowing why! That is my support, not knowing why! That is the Namu-amida-butsu!

 "Love has no why" Meister Eckhart.

The hidden ground of love (Merton)

 

Thank you. I will not be back for a while. I get tired of being compelled to spin around in pointless circles. The revolving wheel of samsara. 

[romansh]

Asking pointless why questions may well be our dharma. Persisting and still not knowing that too could be our dharma. Our dharmas help hold the universe in shape. This pointless Why? has shaped our bit of the universe. I can't help but smile.

Merry Christmas Derek.

[Davidsun]

On 12/18/2022 at 11:23 AM, romansh said:

Atoms and molecules have affinities for certain configurations. Atoms generally 'like' full orbitals and some molecular structures are 'preferred. Similarly, Biology has certain stable ecologies which depend on the environment. Speaking from a stability point of view non-life is where it is at? 

Life is, if we like, an aberration in death. My affinity is to enjoy it whilst it lasts.

What has significance or God for that matter, to do with anything?

Here is the THEORY I subscribe to about what "God's" role in the Process of Creation that we are all iivng aspects of (excerpted from Chapter 2 of my book, Godspeak2000)":

"2:8  ... Everybody in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by cus­tom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by mis­usage, I generally refer to it alter­natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, it is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone. (Though the full import of this cause of all causes may yet escape you, the following review and analysis of our catalog of scientific knowledge should at least make its fundamental character obvious.)

2:9  Even the simplest cases of what’s called gravitational attraction provide perfect illustration, if viewed without prejudice. Bodies of matter-energy must move themselves, for nothing really pushes or pulls them one towards the other.a And they must perceive both presence and relative location, else they could not attempt to move as they do, with an acceleration pro­portionate to the mass and proximity and in the direction of coexisting others.

2:10  Electromagnetic and nuclear interactions, where repulsion occurs as well, are additionally revealing. Ongoing scientific investigation has led us to understand the fact that sense perceptions are basically ‘gross’ acknowledgments, and that everything is fundamentally a wave-form and nothing is actually solid at core.a So, besides there being no substantive means to constitutionally link those bodies which form conglomerates, there is no real ‘boundary’ that so called objects bump into when they apparently bounce off one another. The only inference this permits, if one has enough courage and faith in Life not to invent extrinsic agency as a false postulate, is that the movements that bodies make and the stations they take result from the impulses and choices of discerning, autogenic ‘interiors’.

2:11  The direction and purpose of such inherent power and intentionality can be deduced from the cumulation and trend of results which have so far occurred. Pro­gressively, the creative essence of Being has conspired to form an array of what, because of our material orientation, we’ve called ‘sub-atomic particles’; these have interacted and engaged in such ways as to produce ‘electrons’, ‘protons’ and ‘neutrons’ which, in turn, have combined to create the various ‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’ we have become familiar with; and these, through more concerted effort, have coalesced into cellular and multi-cellular units, in stages, generating ever more complex aggregations of body,a mind and spirit—the whole hierarchy and procession we know as Life.

2:12  In ascending sequence, with prior developments integrated and built upon, ‘bodies’ have become more coordinated, ‘spirits’ more potent, ‘minds’ more perceptive, resident Intelligence more designful and adept. Even what some call ‘simple’ single-celled organisms are architectural masters capable of cognizing, culling and compiling environ­mental ingredients so as to reproduce themselves and further their particular line of development. Each succeeding level of integration further demonstrates the aim of the impetus inherent within all being—that is, to seek and establish cooperative affiliation with suitable others in order to enhance creativity and increase the degree of intelligent actualization.

2:13  Life’s evolutionary accomplishments in such pursuit are extremely varied in range and infinitely diverse; and, because of the involuted nature of their interconnectedness and interdependence, the ways in which its many forms and levels are related cannot be simply stated. Generally speak­ing, however, one might say that ‘lesser’ combina­tions of body, mind and spirit tend to be incorporated by, and serve to sustain, those more comprehensively developed.a With their more energized spirits, more mobile bodies and more dimensional minds, for example, animals prevail over vege­tation for the most part; and the more capable among them prevail over the rest.

2:14  Members of our species stand at the peak of a fantastic living pyramid, borne by the earth and sustained by energy continually streaming from the sun. Cresting a progression that has taken place over aeons and ages,a we have emerged ascendant, capable of much more than great physical dexterity and coordination. Our laughter and our tears demonstrate, in dimensions of Mind and Spirit, how far beyond its other earthly manifestations Intelligence has devel­oped in the process of becoming human.

2:15  We are in a preeminent position because our Intel­ligencea is more capable. Knowing the habits and tendencies of animals, we can hunt and herd them for everything from milk and manure to skins and meat. Knowing the proclivities of plants and trees, we can sow and reap them for food, shelter and variety of drink. And, knowing the patterns and affinities of atoms and molecules, we can manipulate and reorder them to fulfill practically every structural possibility we desire.

2:16  What’s more, because we can categorize and communicate aspects of experience using sounds and word-symbols strung together in sentences and paragraphs, knowledge gained by any member of our species is poten­tially available to everyone. We can thereby transcend limitations inherent in the ‘me’ of self and the ‘here and now’ of immediate perception. And because we can logically contemplate concepts of ‘before’ and ‘after’ and system­ati­cally correlate effects with causes, projecting any imaginable ‘if’ into the latent potentials of every possible ‘then’, we can also transcend the circumstantial limits of prior experience and conditioning. In sum, because we can broadly compre­hend the significance of past patterns, current trends and future portents, we are capable of knowingly choosing the path to optimal actualization.

2:17  Why then, given such capacity, whether or not dynamics which selectively reinforce cooperative­ness and debilitate oppositionalism are at work, haven’t we been able to establish and sustain a state of functional community and positively creative adaptation? Instead, there is a profusion of conflict, distress is endemic, many don’t fare at all well. A more extensive analysis is necessary to elucidate this apparent contradiction."

The rest of the book addresses the question raised in in the last paragraph above.

Edited May 5 by Davidsun
correcting spelling errors

[romansh]

Nice copy and paste ... what about free will? Does your subscription to God's role explain free will?  Does it lend itself to a libertarian or compatibilist view of free will? What do you mean by God? In your world view are cause and effect true?

To be clear I am not going to read your pdf. Your writing seems like a platitude salad. I would love to have a discussion, but I am not going to try and decipher what for me comes across as a word salad.

[Davidsun]

15 hours ago, romansh said:

Nice copy and paste ... what about free will? Does your subscription to God's role explain free will?  Does it lend itself to a libertarian or compatibilist view of free will?

I answered you in the 'free will' thread. I seriously wonder about your rationale for bringing this up in this thread.
 

And re your saying: "Your writing seems like a platitude salad. I would love to have a discussion, but I am not going to try and decipher what for me comes across as a word salad."

I ask you, honestly now, would you consider someone who said something like this to you a decent prospect for having a meaningful discussion with? Good luck in your relationships with others.

I am shocked to find this kind of response in a supposedly, would-be at least Christian (i.e. 'love your neighbor as yourself') forum.  Another 'sign' of the sickness epidemic in the world, I suppose. Still surprises me, however.

Assuming "By their fruits shall ye know them" is a truism, this doesn't bode well for this Progressive Christianity' endeavor.

Edited May 6 by Davidsun
Secoind thoughts

[romansh]

1 hour ago, Davidsun said:

I answered you in the 'free will' thread. I seriously wonder about your rationale for bringing this up in this thread.

It was a mistake ... wrong thread ... but as yet you have not really answered any of my questions.

1 hour ago, Davidsun said:

I ask you, honestly now, would you consider someone who said something like this to you a decent prospect for having a meaningful discussion with? Good luck in your relationships with others.

If someone said this about my writing and thoughts ... I would consider the possibility and check where that opinion might have come from. 

[Davidsun]

17 minutes ago, romansh said:

If someone said this about my writing and thoughts ... I would consider the possibility and check where that opinion might have come from. 

Backatcha, fellow.

[Davidsun]

18 minutes ago, romansh said:

as yet you have not really answered any of my questions.

Hello Imperious One - please register and conduct yourself according to the FACT that I am not here to answer any of your (or anyone else's) potentially irrelevant to my purpose questions, but rather to present and share arguments which make sense of my Life-serving (IMO) world-view.

[Davidsun]

Well assuming (just hoping, really) that Romansh's comments don't represent a dominant/dominating stream of thought-and-feeling here, let me share the rest of the chapter that I began sharing in an earlier post, begiinning with the last paragraph in that post. which I presented as a curiosity-tease. If you cpntemplate what I say, you may 'see' that it also explains the presence and activity of what many think of 'evil' in our world:
 

"2:17  Why then, given such capacity, whether or not dynamics which selectively reinforce cooperative­ness and debilitate oppositionalism are at work, haven’t we been able to establish and sustain a state of functional community and positively creative adaptation? Instead, there is a profusion of conflict, distress is endemic, many don’t fare at all well. A more extensive analysis is necessary to elucidate this apparent contradiction.

2:18  There were times, such as the period during which we were hunter-gatherers and simple herders, when rela­tively limited perspective and short-term design, governed by the instinctual imperative to “be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis; 1:28) were indeed sufficient. In a world where dominance has not yet been established by any particular species, creative purpose is well-served by general efforts towards material productivity and biological reproduction. Kept from over­expanding by inability to prevail, populations remain in dynamic balance. When no particular group monopolized the stage, the stream of Life moved forward smoothly, without interruption.

2:19  But drastic consequences ensued once we attained and consolidated a position of unrivaled ascendancy (as one species or another was bound to eventually, given Life’s inherent ‘upward’ aspiration). With others no longer able to functionally constrain our growth, we have since then repeatedly expanded past the point that our ecosystem could regeneratively support and sustain. Severe crises have contin­ued to recur as the needs and desires of increasing numbers of us have cyclically exhausted the productive capacity of our environment, precipitating ecological disasters and massive populational deletions. Again and again, as now once more, we have found ourselves caught in a tightening net, faced with life-or-death prospects in increasingly com­petitive relationship with one another, as available resources become insufficient.

2:20  Events and trends of this and recent centuries highlight the escalating process. As individuals and groups continue to multiply and aspire to ever greater power and attainment in the context of a finite setting, in addition to increasing levels of stress, more and more suffer unwelcome privation. As returns gradually diminish, more and more have to work harder and harder to make a decent living; and fewer and fewer of those who are functionally dependent are adequately provided for and protected (witness the plight of so many of our children!).

2:21  As exploitation becomes exhaustive, those at a competitive disadvantage sink into poverty and become increasingly malnourished and ill-effected by environmental pollution. Not just materially; analogous trends are evi­denced in realms of Mind and Spirit. The texture of emotion and awareness becomes more and more night­marish. Even­tually, all hell breaks loose—anomie, anxiety and frustration spread and build into an epidemic of loneliness, paranoia and rage, and finally explode, with more and more people trying to escape hopelessness, in an avalanche of insane desperation.

2:22  Synchronously, relationships break down. As people feel deprived or threat­ened, immediate self-interest eclipses empathy based on mutual identification. Respect and good­will fall by the wayside. Personal desires are opportunistically asserted as valid, even as their equivalents in others are adamantly rejected as unwarranted impositions.

2:23  Sociopathology proliferates. Love becomes a mere charade; more and more often, fanciful attraction just leads to a bed of thorns. Marriages more frequently fall apart; proportionally fewer true unions are formed. Homes become battlegrounds; family life degenerates into a horror-show, full of ill will and discontent. Parents become increasingly negli­gent and abusive; children more rebellious and insolent. Cultural transmission is disrupted as the young and the old become mutually unsympathetic, each begrudging the special considerations and opportunities the other, by virtue of organic status, should be afforded. Even institutional settings specifically designed to promote growth and well-being become wastelands, as more and more functionaries don’t truly care for their charges and their charges become increasingly dysfunctional and vindictive in response.

2:24  It should come as no surprise. As individuals and groups press up against and are reciprocally pressured by others, not of their liking or choosing, the desire to have and the fear of being had catalytically combine to spark distrust and inflame antagonism. In such context, some behave like lone wolves; others like dogs gone mad. Most, however, join in unholy alliance, not united by love of Life but by shared greed and common aversions.

2:25  Not recognizing the desire for self-enhancement itself to be the underlying cause of the dissatisfaction and distress they experience and encounter, individuals and groups project blame outward, rationalizing that they and theirs are (or would be, if they didn’t vigilantly ensure other­wise) insufficiently given to and excessively taken advantage of. Denying their own duplicity and viewing others as par­ticularly villainous, as circumstances deteriorate, they justify uncharitability and deceit as legitimate means of getting ahead, and treachery and the wreaking of vengeance as fair ways of getting even.

2:26  Mutually beneficial arrangements for the sharing and exchange of labor and its fruits consequently break down. Alliance against alliance, ideology against ideology, ethnic group against ethnic group, class against class, and newcomers against the establishment, as well as in-groups against the outcast within them, rivalries become so cut­throat that enmity develops between people, wherever categorically different. Whether hypocritically hidden or openly done, incidences of criminal dereliction and abuse become more insidious, more violational, more widespread, and more frequent.

2:27  Recurrently, at the tail end of a period of relative abundance during which all sorts of developments tend to flourish and proliferate, a dominant but unlearned species such as ours experiences an evolutionary crisis characterized by extremes of the forementioned abominations. Not as simply as the collapse of a weakened structure or the bursting of an overly distended balloon, more like earthquake activity and volcanic explosions, the growth of the complex of our pressures past the limits of multifaceted ecosystemic con­tainment occasions destructive disequilibrium in a series of episodes, with ones less catastrophic bracketing holocausts of major proportions.

2:28  And, unfortunately, as our capabilities naturally expand and increase, to the degree they continue to be one-sidedly deployed, they serve to magnify the scale and extent of the atrocities that are unleashed."

Edited May 6 by Davidsun
To fix formatting