Armageddon-are We There Yet?

[mzmolly]

BrotherRog,

 

That is exactly why the whole rapture/Left Behind thing scares me.  It's not just that I disagree with Biblical interpretation ...  on most issues I'm content to let people believe what they believe and leave it at that...

I've been so outspoken in the past against the rapture et. all because of where it leads.  If people want to believe in a kooky understanding of the future and the end of the world, then that is their perogative.  But I don't want them leading the country and making choices about nuclear weapons and human life based on such an understanding.  Sometimes I think they want Armageddon so bad they will make it happen with their own weapons and destructiveness, just to prove themselves right. 

 

:

I totally agree.

[mzmolly]

Here's a link to a very thought provoking article re: "American Left-Behindism"

 

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/May2004/Bageant0518.htm

Wow, what a great article. I can very much relate to this:

 

Only another liberal born into a fundamentalist clan can understand what a strange, sometimes downright hellish family circumstance it is -- how such a family can love you deeply, yet despise everything you believe in, see you as a humanist instrument of Satan, and still be right there for you when your back goes out or a divorce shatters your life. As a socialist and a half-assed lefty activist, obviously I do not find much conversational fat to chew around the Thanksgiving table. Politically and spiritually, we may be said to be dire enemies. Love and loathing coexist side by side. There is talk, but no communication. In fact, there are times when it all has science fiction overtones...times when it seems we are speaking to one another through an unearthly veil, wherein each party knows it is speaking to an alien. There is a sort of high eerie mental whine in the air. This is the sound of mutually incomprehensible worlds hurtling toward destiny, passing with great psychological friction, obvious to all, yet acknowledged by none.

 

I married into such a family ...

 

THIS ARTICLE IS SUCH A WAKE UP CALL ... It's a must read IMHO.

 

But to blow The Rapture off as amusing-if-scary fantasy is not being honest on my part. Cheap glibness has always been my vice, so I must say this: Personally, I've lived with The Rapture as the psychologically imprinted backdrop of my entire life. In fact, my own father believed in it until the day he died, and the last time I saw him alive we talked about The Rapture. And when he asked me, "Will you be saved?" Will you be there with me on Canaan's shore after The Rapture?" I was forced to feign belief in it to give a dying man inner solace. But that was the spiritual stuff of families, and living and dying, religion in its rightful place, the way it is supposed to be, personal and intimate -- not political. Thus, until the advent of the Reconstructionist Christian influence, I'd certainly never heard The Rapture spoken about in the context of a Texan being selected by God to prepare its way.

 

Now however, this apocalyptic belief, yearning really, drives an American Christian polity in the service of a grave and unnerving agenda. The pseudo-scriptural has become an apocalyptic game plan for earthly political action: To wit, the messiah can only return to earth after an apocalypse in Israel called Armageddon, which the fundamentalists are promoting with all their power so that The Rapture can take place. The first requirement was establishment of the state of Israel. Done. The next is Israel's occupation of the Middle East as a return of its "Biblical lands," which in the Reconstructionist scheme of things, means more wars. These Christian conservatives believe peace cannot ever lead to The Rapture, and indeed impedes the 1,000 year Reign of Christ. So anyone promoting peace is an enemy, a tool of Satan, hence the fundamentalist support for any and all wars Middle Eastern, in which their own kids die a death often viewed by Christian parents as a holy martyrdom of its own kind. "He (or she) died protecting this country's Christian values." One hears it over and over from parents of those killed.

Edited June 13, 2004 by mzmolly

[ComradeInChrist]

Here is a link I found useful in understanding the Christian Zionist perspective:

Hal Lindsey: Father of Apocalyptic Christian Zionism

[BrotherRog]

In post # 2 of page 1 of this thread, I suggested two excellent books that provide good antidotes to the mistaken "Left Behind" theologies.

 

I now offer another resource that is well worth reading.

 

Here's a link to Walter Wink's article "Apocalypse now?"

religion-online

(http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2208)

 

The article clairfies the disctinctions between Apocalypse and Eschatology and helps debunk the "rapture" theories that inform the Bush administration's foreign policies.

[mzmolly]

Brotherrog, and others ... you are so helpful, thanks!

[BeachOfEden]

It is interesting to note how Millennial beliefs are found also in PureLand Buddhism, Hare Krishna, 12 Tribe Rastafari and many Native American beliefs such as the Hopi and also the very liberal Bahai faith. But in these groups the interpretation is about the end of one AGE and the begnning of a positive one to follow..rather than the end of this physical earth..as the fundamental branch of Protestantism teaches. I was raised in Jehovah's Witnesses...so I know all about Armageddon warnings. It is interesting to me how most religious books are always mentioning William Miller in connection to JW's. While Miller and JW's do indeed both focus on End Times...Miller was thee spearhead person to start the whole "Rapture' belief....ineterestinly...JW's REJECT the concept of a "rapture," they also reject the belief of a literla eternal hellfire...While that IS '2' beliefs I CAN and DO embrace now that I am a Progressive rather than fundamental Christian. As I grew older and more interested in helping perserve the environment I often thought it was odd that though JW's often spoke of looking forward to the day when God would restored THIS natural world....they seemed completely UNinterested in helping our earth NOW. Though JW's and Evangelical/Fundamental Protestants fight like cats and dogs...mainly over the trinity debate...they DO share many beliefs..such as not allowing women to be pastors/elders..basically NOT treating women completely equal.....being unkind in their words towards homosexuals..and ovbiously, in this case, disregarding our present natural enviorment.

 

 

JW's and Fundamental Protestants also share a major theme in common that all fundamentalists share..that is...teaching a members-ONLY salvation. The only major difference is the Evangelicals use getting "Left Behind" during the rapture and going to hell scare tactic for conversaion...while JW's use the getting destroyed at Armageddon and simply ceasing to be/never being resurrected back to life scare tactic to gain and keep converts.

[ComradeInChrist]

I live in Canada, where the end of the world escatology is much less main stream. The following article gave me a better perspective on it.

 

The Covert Kingdom

[mzmolly]

I live in Canada, where the end of the world escatology is much less main stream. The following article gave me a better perspective on it.

 

The Covert Kingdom

No wonder I continually peruse Canadian real estate boards.

 

Excellent article, I've read this before. Sadly, we are in for another four years of this mentality in the US.

[des]

I just found this thread (again perhaps). And read some of the articles. The one from dissentvoice really resonated. Perhaps it is that I too come from such a family. My Campus Crusade sister has brought all sorts of people around my mom (and therefore me during the holidays). It is a very strange atmosphere to say the least.

 

I wouldn't get my hopes up after these four years. My sister believes that Hillary Clinton will become born again (praise the Lord!) and that no one will ever get into the White House again without being born-again. I have my doubts about the former, but as to the latter there is the problem. Of course, there were all sorts of things helping GWB out-- a not that popular Senator (not the last late bastion of presidents-- the Senate), running a poor campaign against a negative and effective campaign; 9-11; a war that although not entirely popular was still voted for by Kerry; GWB who is considered likable while Kerry was considered aloof and standoffish (can't have that in a president now). While my state, NM is very pro-environment almost nothign was said about it (and so on in many potential states.

Still-- look at the Congress. Look at the high no. of Religious Right Congressman.

So unless someone can reframe the issues...

 

For another chilling website see:

http://www.theocracywatch.org

 

Discusses a lot of the above issues.

 

 

--des

[des]

Preachers may point to this earthquake here, that war there, that pestilence there. But i mean, come on, what about the black death? or the 1666 fires? (This must have gotten preachers running about the place cos' of the 666 lol....) Do they mean that the end is near? apparently not. But, another thing is Israel, while I can say that it has very much fulfilled the prophecies in Isaiah. With it saying that after Israel is formed, the end would be "near".

 

Well and then there was Hitler. If you read the description of Hitler, you have to think he sounds a lot like the Anti-Christ description. He even used churches in a cynical way.

And he definitely wanted to take over all of Europe and then some. This sounds a lot more like the Roman Empire than the EU. Does the EU sound like some Roman empire to you?

Only if you are most paranoid.

You think the EU will be voting in another Hitler anytime soon?

Of course according to some I have the Anti-Christ will be gay! Well of course, he will be gay! :-( (Actually I have no facial expression for that one.)

 

Yes we have had worse times, and we will no doubt have better times.

 

As for picking dates, the newbie Rapture index folks are wisely not picking dates. In fact they go thru all the wrong dates. But apparently it's not so soon they are worried about morality (sex), but near enough that they aren't worrying about poor air quality.

 

To be honest these folks really scare me. The thing that's scary is how they might be acting to "help bring it on" thru warfare and intentional polluting (God will provide, so why worry).

 

 

--des

[BeachOfEden]

What is really odd to me is that fact that George Bush Jr. was raised in the United Methodist Church and NOT the Southern Baptists, of which he SO acts like. I saw this program like a month of 2 on PBS called "The Jesus Factor," in which the program explains that though Bush was raised United Methodists...in his college years he was invited to join a so-called "Non-denominational" Men Christian group. Yet, by large those who ran and supported the men's group were Southern Baptists. This is another reason to very LEARY of these so-called "non-denominational" men's groups and Christian Campus clubs. Though they claim to be non-denom..they are almost always ran by Southern Baptists or Calvary Chapel and there big goal is to sway mainstream Christians into embracing their radical fundamental far right mentality= hellfire threats, Rapture hysterics+ their political views that tie in with all this, their sexism and other bigotries.

 

There was this article once about 10 years ago in either Time mag or NewsWeek about another so-called non-denom campus ministry called YOUNGLIFE.. It was very eye-opening. In the article perents who were of non-far right moderate Protestant churches like Methodists and Presbyterians let their kids join the YOUNGLIFE campus clubs. They said they thought nothing of it, figuring that it was Christian and non-denom so it never crossed their minds to question it source of connections. Later on some perents began noticing a selfrighteous additude in their children, as their kids would come home and question their own perents salvation and telling their perents that they feared of them or their friends "Not really being saved", and getting "Left Behind" during the rapture.

 

The problem is...many, if not most people are ignorant of their own faiths, they 'assume' that all churches, as long as they are Protestant are the same. The far right radical prey upon this igornace and used it to their advanatge. They KNOW that their Southern baptist type churches are NOTHING like the mainstream churches but they play dumb in order to trick mainstreamers into being brainwashed into their radical "memebers-ONLY" salvation theory. This is obviosuly what happened to persident Bush...How much more scary can you get than that?

[darby]

Beach-

 

It appears you've been hurt by some conservative or "far-right" churches in the past--and I'm sorry for that. But do you believe that conservative, non-denominational churches are all trying to "trick" and "brainwash" people? Are Spong and others "brainwashing" people when they espouse certain beliefs? You may not like President Bush, but is it possible that as he has studied the Bible and searched for meaning (as we all have), this is the path that makes the most sense to him? Do you truly think a person who has come to a conservative approach to Christianity could only do so as the result of trickery or brainwashing? You are painting with quite a broad stroke.

 

By the way, I go to a non-denominational, conservative, grace-filled, multi-racial church with over 40 nations represented. I guess I drank the Kool-aid.

[BrotherRog]

Beach,

 

Actually, George W. Bush was raised as an [/b], he "became" a United Methodist (on paper) when he married his wife who was raised as a Methodist. He then "came to Christ" via the influence of Billy Graham and via participation in a mens' Bible study group.

 

I agree that is is really more of a Southern Baptist at heart and in practice. It should also be noted that he participates in weekly tele-conferences with several Baptist leaders and that he denied meeting with United Methodist Bishops who saught to meet with him before he waged his war with Iraq. Indeed, GWB is the first U.S. president to refuse to meet with Methodist Bishops.

 

I think that George Jr. and Dick Cheney are intentionally Methodists - on paper - for political expediency; i.e. to come across as being more mainstream and mainline in order to woo those voters.

[des]

Darby, I don't think you were brainwashed.

 

The fact is that the term brainwashing is pretty inaccurate anyway, but there are cases of people (Not GWB) who are taken in by various groups (Moonies) might be an example, and isolated from others while given only support and care from their own. I don't think that someone coming to anything on their own is brainwashed regardless of how I feel about it otherwise.

 

MY understanding is that GWB was something of a frat boy and loser and he found "Jesus". (Now he is something of a frat boy turned evangelical Christian president :-)).

I believe sometimes children take on the religious demonation of their parents, in his case, UMC, without much thought. (Laura Bush is still UMC, to my knowledge-- not really suggesting that she is taking it without thought, but I just imagine that's what GWB did.)

 

I think the thing that *sometimes* converts such folks is that they are surrounded by people who only think one way. They are loved and cared for by such people. I think Campus Crusade does some of this. MANY nondemoninational groups are really fundamentalist in disguise. My sister called these "seeker sensitive". They don't have a lot of the obvious trappings of organized religion and call themselves things like Willow Creek Community Church. Or Oasis Family Church for one here, for example. In NO way do they participate in brainwashing. But they don't provide what would have been typically considered nondemonational in years past. These are churches specifically set up to convert people who are turned off by organized religion and are no more brainwashing than the UCC ads in December. These were seeker sensitive in a different way, trying to attract people who are unchurched and turned off by aspects of organized religion. I would still be wary of nondemonational-- not because I am worried about cyanide Kool Ade, but just because most of them are now evangelical. I do think they sometimes use fear (of End Times, hell), but I would guess for GWB (and many others), are attracted towards it. I would guess that many of them stay away from discussions of hell to avoid running people off.

 

I think I read somewhere that we are entering post demonational times, when the usual demonations like Methodist, Lutheran, etc. mean less and less. The *real* differences would be more like fundamentalist, progressive, traditional (mainline or moderate, if you will Beach). So a UMC will be less meaningful than it might have been 10 years ago, and might be heavily dependent on the particular congregation. This is even true of the Catholic-- Protestant divide which used to tell you something. Now there is Traditional Catholic, Charsmatic Catholic, liberal Catholic, etc. (Even Judaism has "Christian Judaism!)

 

It appears you've been hurt by some conservative or "far-right" churches in the past--and I'm sorry for that.

 

I think many of us have been. I could go thru some horror stories myself. But just say, I don't think that my sister saying my epilepsy was caused by demon possession and insisting I needed an exorcism (come one and all, wear black and bring a covered dish :-)) was very, er, helpful. (BTW, thru medication and, perhaps, use of breathing related to the martial arts the demons happily left sans exorcism, and I have been seizure free for 10 years+).

 

 

BroRog-- I'm not sure about the demonations of Cheney, et al. I think there have been books written on which were socially and politically more influential. (At one time, Episcopal was considered very high level in status, and CS was really considered to be extremely high status. Many of Nixons top guys were CS, who all got prison terms.)

There may be some effort to pick and chose demonations that will give you more credability or to help win you constituents. It make sense to balance a ticket on religion as much as state these days. I always thought that GWB wanted Cheney for other things though. He came across as quite moderate in the debates.

 

Wonder about Lynne?

 

 

--des

[darby]

I think I read somewhere that we are entering post demonational times, when the usual demonations like Methodist, Lutheran, etc. mean less and less.

 

I heard William Willimon, the former Duke Univ. chaplain, speak on this a few years ago. Someone asked him what was the biggest change in the students in his many years at Duke. He said it was that 15-20 yrs. ago, when kids were filling out their entrance paperwork, the largest percentages filled out the "religion" blank with Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. Now (a few yrs ago) the largest percentage simply put "Christian" in that blank. Our generation (I'm 36) just does not care much about denomination, I think.

 

I admit to having mixed emotions on the whole "seeker" church movement. I am all for meeting people where they are, being relevant to the culture we are in whether it is style of music, casual dress, or whatever. But the idea of softening a message in order to lure people in (or not run them off) is dishonest. I don't like when churches do that. Since I believe in a literal "lake of fire," and believe we all fall short of the glory of God without Jesus, I personally deliver that message with as much grace and love as possible, but deliver it none the less. None of us, no matter what end of the spectrum we come from, should try to "trick" others into believing as we do.

[BeachOfEden]

About the "Seeker-Senstive"/ "Contemporary"/"Culturally Relevent" thing. I AM ALL For casual dress AND 100% for contemporary sounding music. Coming from a fundamental JW background where we felt forced to dress formal like Mormons and had to endure horrid 1800's sounding hymns called "Kingdom Melodies" I don;t ever want to be apart of a faith group again the I feel tries to force stuffy formal dress codes and downbeat death hymns again! However, i ONLY like the contemporary "Seeker-Sensitve' approuch...'IF'...'IF" it is NOT used to HIDE exclusive beliefs or to simply mask or candy-coat intolerance and fear-tatcicts underneath...and

 

UNforuantly, Des is very right the more often than NOT it IS usually the most fundamental modern churches that use these methodists for just that purpose= to try and distract the new comer from the distastful "members-only" slavation theory aka "Left Beind" and hellfire threats and maybe a sexist view of women. I mean I know of ONE contemporary non-denominational church in my city that IS Evangelical Light and they do NOT roll on the floor nor harp on hell and do not act sexist..but this is ONE church out of the whole city.

[Cynthia]

About the "Seeker-Senstive"/ "Contemporary"/"Culturally Relevent" thing. I AM ALL For casual dress AND 100% for contemporary sounding music. Coming from a fundamental JW background where we felt forced to dress formal like Mormons and had to endure horrid 1800's sounding hymns called "Kingdom Melodies" I don;t ever want to be apart of a faith group again the I feel tries to force stuffy formal dress codes and downbeat death hymns again! However, i ONLY like the contemporary "Seeker-Sensitve' approuch...'IF'...'IF" it is NOT used to HIDE exclusive beliefs or to simply mask or candy-coat intolerance and fear-tatcicts underneath...and

 

UNforuantly, Des is very right the more often than NOT it IS usually the most fundamental modern churches that use these methodists for just that purpose= to try and distract the new comer from the distastful "members-only" slavation theory aka "Left Beind" and hellfire threats and maybe a sexist view of women. I mean I know of ONE contemporary non-denominational church in my city that IS Evangelical Light and they do NOT roll on the floor nor harp on hell and do not act sexist..but this is ONE church out of the whole city.

"the most fundamental modern churches that use these methodists for just that purpose"

 

methodists are people too! They shouldn't be abused (Sorry, couldn't resist)

[des]

"the most fundamental modern churches that use these methodists for just that purpose"

 

Beach, that is one of the coolest, funniest slips of the tongue (or fingers) I have ever seen on this board. LOL! Gotta watch those tricky "methodists". :-)

 

 

I admit to having mixed emotions on the whole "seeker" church movement.  I am all for meeting people where they are, being relevant to the culture we are  in whether it is style of music, casual dress, or whatever.  But the idea of softening a message in order to lure people in (or not run them off) is dishonest.

 

Well as for casual dress, I wouldn't go to a church I had to dress up to go to. God doesn't care, and if the folks care then, well, I think they are paying attention to the wrong things.

There are moderate to liberal churches that do contemporary services. There's a really big UMC near me that does a HUGE business apparently, judging from the size of the building and the no. of programs. They have a contemporary service on Fri. or Sat night instead of 6 AM Sunday. The thing is you need a fairly large congregation to go about it, as you can't give up the traditional if you still have members. Actually I like the traditional. Bawer talks about the "vertical dimention"-- how traditional services are designed to pull you out of the mundane, 9-5 type thinking and put you in a different deeper place. I'm sure you could do that with a contemporary service-- I have been to more than a few guitar masses circa about mid 70s. (:-)) (I went to a college run by the sisters of Avila).

I'm sure some people though are turned off by what they see as an irrelevant type of service. We do have a mix of music, types of music, etc. as well as liturgical dance (which you can keep!!!) I like hymns if they stay off the minor keys and are singable.

 

I don't believe any church should soft peddle their goods to "attract people".

 

--des

[BrotherRog]

I am the pastor of a UM congregation. We are not one of the mega-churches (like Church of the Resurrection in Leawood, KS or the big UM churches in Houston, TX). FYI, the average UM church (and frankly the average Church of any sort) in the U.S. has but 100 in attendance on Sunday mornings. The church I serve has about 300 attending on Sundays. We offer two services, a traditional and a contemporary one complete with a really good praise band/team.

 

People feel comfortable wearing casual or formal clothing at both of the services.

 

I'm not sure that our congregation is "the norm", but we are proof that there's some mainline congregations worth checking out. : )

 

This congregation is not yet prepared to become an official TCPC congregation, but we're making progressive progress. I do know of at least one TCPC United Methodist congregation nearby, Green Mountain UMC in Lakewood, CO.

Edited February 8, 2005 by BrotherRog

[des]

Ah, well I wondered about whether you might be a pastor or someting BR, as you know more about the resources stuff than some of us. (Well at least I speak for myself on this.)

 

I think the very large UMC church near me is about 400 strong. I would guess that they might not buy all the 8 points, but they would go along with some of them. They are apparently involved in some of the same social action activities my own church is involved in. But they have some more recreational type programs, etc. For example, while my church has a day care center they have a mothers day out type program (which fits the socio-economic area fairly well really), they have more youth activities, etc. (One church around here, not sure the denomination, runs a "safe" skate park--drug free, helmet rule enforced, actual adult supervision, etc. But it may be a UMC.); many more group discussions, etc.

 

I have never attended the above, as it just seems a bit large for my comfort-- I don't know I like a small church where you have to do everything. :-} ( However, if they ever vote me on the church council I have threatened to "off myself", been there and done that. My old church also insisted everything be by consesus. Yikes. )

 

We have something like the typical of 100. (Actually are 200 I think, but they don't all come to services.) We could easily fit into the tcpc framework.

We are ONA (Open and Affirming), which is a UCC term for congregations which accept welcome gay membership and involvement. No one cares about dress. They have people carrying candles, that sort of thing, in jeans or sweatpants. It's totally not an issue.

 

Re: the post demonational thing is prob. as true for liberals/progressives as it is for conservatives. I'd have a hard time sticking "Christian" into a slot asking for my religion, due to the connotations that suggest fundamentalist. But if UCC were to disappear tomorrow, I'd have no trouble being part of some other moderate/liberal/progressive congregation, depending-- for example Presbyterian USA; UMC; UU (highly dependent); ELCA; etc. etc.

 

 

--des

Edited February 9, 2005 by des