thormas Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 55 minutes ago, Pipiripi said: Progressive Christians are those people describe in the book of Revelation 14:6-12. And verse 12 is the progressive children of God. Perhaps - do you have a modern day interpretation that makes sense of this passage to 21st C listeners? I assume that progressive Christians wouldn't take this literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 22 hours ago, thormas said: Perhaps - do you have a modern day interpretation that makes sense of this passage to 21st C listeners? I assume that progressive Christians wouldn't take this literally. Do you know that the book of Revelation speak from the fall from Satan of heaven till the New World that God are going to created? So today we are also in this prophecy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pipiripi said: Do you know that the book of Revelation speak from the fall from Satan of heaven till the New World that God are going to created? So today we are also in this prophecy. Pipirpi, First have you actually answered my question? And, as a progressive Christian, I don't take Revelation literally and it is likely that most actual 'progressive Christians' don't either. It is also apparent that this is the most misinterpreted and misunderstood of all the NT books Edited January 31, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Revelation of John is vision, not prophecy. Prophecy in Christianity is an inspired declaration of God’s will to the people. Visions are symbolic and the visions may or may not occur. They are a warning of things that may happen. Reference the recent famous visions @ Fatima and Medjugorje. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, Burl said: Revelation of John is vision, not prophecy. Prophecy in Christianity is an inspired declaration of God’s will to the people Vision not prophecy: I like it. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Hello all, I understand that many Christians today don't understand the book of Daniel and Revelation. Real Progressive Christians have the Bible only as their source of guides. Revelation 12:17 and 14:12 are the progressive Christians today. They have two things Biblical that many other denominations don't have. They KEEP the 10 Comandments and HAVE the faith OF Jesus, not in Jesus. The Devil has twist the word of God so badly that the world are following man's teaching rather then God's teachings. Look what is happening today. God is calling His people to come out of Babylon (the fallen churches), and today they are uniting with the Rome Catholic Church. Read Revelation 18:4. Read John 10:1-16. Focus on verse 16. And before you go read those chapters and verses or after, Read Galatians 1:1-10. Paul apostle of Jesus has spoken. God Bless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 16 hours ago, Pipiripi said: Do you know that the book of Revelation speak from the fall from Satan of heaven till the New World that God are going to created? So today we are also in this prophecy. I'm not sure anybody can 'know' what the Book of Revelation was actually getting at, as we just don't have the understanding of the world back then that the author did. I think most biblical scholarship these days though sees Revelation as more of a shot at the all-powerful Roman Empire which had Israel under its heel rather than writings representative of any second coming or ultimate end of the world as we seem to consider it today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 9 hours ago, thormas said: Vision not prophecy: I like it. Well said. Hi, what is vision and what is prophecy? You cannot separate them. God have let them see what will happens till the end of this world and tell them to write it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Pipiripi said: Real Progressive Christians have the Bible only as their source of guides. I would argue about your understanding of what 'real' Progressive Christians are, but I'm sure we could argue all day and not necessarily agree. What I do know is that many people who regard themselves as Progressive Christians would say they use more than the bible as their guide. So for me, I wouldn't be categorizing them as not real PC's if they used other sources. Myself, I think the bible has a lot of limitations in the modern world (it' individual writings were written for people largely 2000-3500 years ago) and I don't read much of it literally but rather consider it individual opinions and views about how those individual authors (and perhaps the cultures at the different times) understood God. That makes sense to me when one sees the changing nature, character and stories about what God 'is' as the writings progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 15 minutes ago, PaulS said: I'm not sure anybody can 'know' what the Book of Revelation was actually getting at, as we just don't have the understanding of the world back then that the author did. I think most biblical scholarship these days though sees Revelation as more of a shot at the all-powerful Roman Empire which had Israel under its heel rather than writings representative of any second coming or ultimate end of the world as we seem to consider it today. My brother for understanding the Book of Daniel and Revelation we need to ask Jesus to open our minds. All the symbolic language have their own meaning. It is a very long study to write it up here. My friend don't you see that the book of Revelation is the last book in the Bible? Read how Jesus has begin to speak with John. Read how God has tell Daniel what he must do in Daniel 12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, PaulS said: I would argue about your understanding of what 'real' Progressive Christians are, but I'm sure we could argue all day and not necessarily agree. What I do know is that many people who regard themselves as Progressive Christians would say they use more than the bible as their guide. So for me, I wouldn't be categorizing them as not real PC's if they used other sources. Myself, I think the bible has a lot of limitations in the modern world (it' individual writings were written for people largely 2000-3500 years ago) and I don't read much of it literally but rather consider it individual opinions and views about how those individual authors (and perhaps the cultures at the different times) understood God. That makes sense to me when one sees the changing nature, character and stories about what God 'is' as the writings progress. I'm agree with you, I mean if anybody bring a story or whatever it has to be in harmony with the Bible. I must find it or most of it in the Bible. Sorry for my English, I'm not an English man. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 32 minutes ago, Pipiripi said: My brother for understanding the Book of Daniel and Revelation we need to ask Jesus to open our minds. All the symbolic language have their own meaning. It is a very long study to write it up here. My friend don't you see that the book of Revelation is the last book in the Bible? Read how Jesus has begin to speak with John. Read how God has tell Daniel what he must do in Daniel 12. I think they tend to call that 'confirmation bias' Pipripi. It seems to me that people would have no idea whether it was a Jesus opening their mind or simply their own thoughts that give them belief in something. In my opinion, Daniel and Revelation have no connection whatsoever, other than they are both people writing about their understanding of God stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 32 minutes ago, Pipiripi said: I'm agree with you, I mean if anybody bring a story or whatever it has to be in harmony with the Bible. I must find it or most of it in the Bible. Sorry for my English, I'm not an English man. Thanks. There's a lot in the bible that by modern standards would be considered shocking and disgusting if people were to behave that way today (e.g. genocide, God-authorized rape and slavery, executing people for picking up sticks on a Sunday, etc). So personally I don't rely on needing something to harmonize with the bible, but each to their own. I think you're doing pretty good with the English. What is your native language? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 12 hours ago, Pipiripi said: Hi, what is vision and what is prophecy? You cannot separate them. God have let them see what will happens till the end of this world and tell them to write it. Burl can provide his own answer but I understand prophecy as 'reading or seeing into the future' whereas vision is a 'present' insight about life based on an 'understanding of God.' Given my understanding of how God Is and 'operates' I don't believe that we are able to actually see the future or what will happened till the end of the world. Specifically Revelation is not about the future but about the reality faced by Christians in their own day. What is important is the 'vision' that one such as Jesus brings to the world, how his 'understanding' of the Father, enables him to see the truth of every age, the truth of God (so to speak) and live it in his life. Vision empowers us to live now and be a child of the Father, who needs to see into the future if one is fully alive in the Present? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) Piperipi, What you'll find (what I have found) on this site are some who are progressive and Christian, thus so called 'progressive Christians' and others who are progressive thinkers or progressive in their outlook but not (necessarily) Christian. Edited February 1, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Pipiripi said: ...........for understanding the Book of Daniel and Revelation we need to ask Jesus to open our minds. All the symbolic language have their own meaning. Pipiripi My experience is that 'Jesus helps me' to open my mind if I turn to others, such as biblical experts, who have spend a lifetime learning the language, culture and history and religion of the biblical times. Edited February 1, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Pipiripi said: ........ if anybody bring a story or whatever it has to be in harmony with the Bible. I must find it or most of it in the Bible. Sorry for my English, I'm not an English man. There is something to be said about your statement. I do agree that, for the Christian, a story (but not sure if you mean vision or understanding of a story) has to be in harmony with the Bible. There is a Christian scholar, Gabriel Moran, who spoke of the Present Revelation and used the image of man with one foot in his present while the other foot in anchored in the 'time of the NT- and that the latter is a guide for the former. It gets involved but I have always liked the image. Edited February 1, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 On 2/1/2020 at 12:43 AM, PaulS said: I think they tend to call that 'confirmation bias' Pipripi. It seems to me that people would have no idea whether it was a Jesus opening their mind or simply their own thoughts that give them belief in something. In my opinion, Daniel and Revelation have no connection whatsoever, other than they are both people writing about their understanding of God stuff. People that wrote the Bible was inspired by God. God tell them what they must write. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 13 hours ago, thormas said: There is something to be said about your statement. I do agree that, for the Christian, a story (but not sure if you mean vision or understanding of a story) has to be in harmony with the Bible. There is a Christian scholar, Gabriel Moran, who spoke of the Present Revelation and used the image of man with one foot in his present while the other foot in anchored in the 'time of the NT- and that the latter is a guide for the former. It gets involved but I have always liked the image. The only true man image in the Bible is the dream of the king in the book of Daniel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 I didn't start this thread and it is in response to Pipiripi so it seems he should be credited with 'starting' a thread. Also the PC in Revelations seems a bit narrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Pipiripi said: The only true man image in the Bible is the dream of the king in the book of Daniel. Are you saying there is no true image of man anywhere else in the Bible? Not Genesis, Paul or elsewhere in the NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Pipiripi said: People that wrote the Bible was inspired by God. God tell them what they must write. How do you believe that works? Should the entire Bible be taken literally then since God told the many writers what to write? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 And if it is to be taken literally, how are we understand the difference versions of the crucifixion and appearances and the radically different conception and birth stories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 3 hours ago, thormas said: Are you saying there is no true image of man anywhere else in the Bible? Not Genesis, Paul or elsewhere in the NT? What I'm saying is that all images are imagining how the people look likes. The most of us has a picture of Jesus in our minds the way that we have seen it in a movie or painting, statue. And always in a vision or dreams you see Jesus like you have it in your mind. Literally Jesus should like the Israelites that you see today. He came from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipiripi Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 4 hours ago, thormas said: And if it is to be taken literally, how are we understand the difference versions of the crucifixion and appearances and the radically different conception and birth stories? All the movies that you have seen is an author of other nation. The most people today see Jesus as the old movie Jesus picture. Do you see now why people are disguising about color of Jesus? It is about the film author. Do you see passion of Christ, playing by Mel Gibson? Do you see how they have change his face just like the first film of Jesus? My friends is time to know what will happen to this world today. I know there is not much time left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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