Why I am not a Muslim.

[romansh]

Where do I start?

I suppose I don't have the skill set to believe in any religion presented to me so far. Likely, because I have a skeptical agnostic outlook on reality. 

I actively disbelieve in things like angels, the devil(s), jinns/genies, and the like. Who in this day and age believes in such entities?  Jeez ... it is the 21st century. Then there is the co-belief that an angel came to Maryam and foretold of some kind of divine birth. Possibly parthenogenetic? Get real! Then of course there are all the mythical miracles in these holy texts we are supposed to believe in.

• Speaking as an Infant: One of the earliest miracles attributed to Jesus in the Qur'an is his ability to speak clearly as a newborn baby. In Surah Maryam (19:29-30), when Mary is questioned about the infant she has brought, Jesus speaks from the cradle, defending his mother and proclaiming his prophetic mission.

• Creating a Bird from Clay: Another miracle is Jesus creating a bird from clay. In Surah Al-Imran (3:49) and Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:110), it is mentioned that Jesus fashioned a bird from clay, breathed into it, and it became a living bird by Allah's permission.

• Healing the Blind and the Leper: Jesus is also said to have healed the blind and the lepers. In Surah Al-Imran (3:49) and Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:110), these healing miracles are attributed to him, performed with Allah's permission.

• Raising the Dead: Jesus is described as having the ability to bring the dead back to life by Allah's permission. This is mentioned in both Surah Al-Imran (3:49) and Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:110).

• Providing Food from Heaven Another miracle involves Jesus requesting a table laden with food from heaven for his disciples. In Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:112-115), this event is recounted where Jesus prays to Allah, and a feast is sent down to serve as a sign for his followers.

Then there is the riding up to heaven on a winged white horse. And:

• Prophet Muhammad's Miracle of the moon splitting. When the unbelievers challenged the Prophet to perform a miracle. ...
• The Tree that Cried. ...
• The Miracle of Water Flowing From The Prophet's Hands. ...
• The Wedding Miracle.

Again we are seventeen centuries after the formation of these myths.

Then there is how Islam is practiced today. @toty and @akay have told us that the vast majority of Islam is peaceful. But if we look at the history of Islam it is anything but peaceful. But we are told these are not 'real' Muslims. But Mohammed himself was not that peaceful in his ascension to power. Of course, we have apologetics excusing this lapse of loving and compassion. We look at the Islamic world today ... the criminal code as it is practiced remains quite barbaric. Islamic countries in general were behind the West to codify the abolition of slavery.

The reason I am not a Muslim is that Islam seems daft to me and I don't have the skill set to buy into it.

 

[PaulS]

8 hours ago, romansh said:

Where do I start?

I suppose I don't have the skill set to believe in any religion presented to me so far. Likely, because I have a skeptical agnostic outlook on reality. 

I actively disbelieve in things like angels, the devil(s), jinns/genies, and the like. Who in this day and age believes in such entities?  Jeez ... it is the 21st century. Then there is the co-belief that an angel came to Maryam and foretold of some kind of divine birth. Possibly parthenogenetic? Get real! Then of course there are all the mythical miracles in these holy texts we are supposed to believe in.

• Speaking as an Infant: One of the earliest miracles attributed to Jesus in the Qur'an is his ability to speak clearly as a newborn baby. In Surah Maryam (19:29-30), when Mary is questioned about the infant she has brought, Jesus speaks from the cradle, defending his mother and proclaiming his prophetic mission.

• Creating a Bird from Clay: Another miracle is Jesus creating a bird from clay. In Surah Al-Imran (3:49) and Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:110), it is mentioned that Jesus fashioned a bird from clay, breathed into it, and it became a living bird by Allah's permission.

• Healing the Blind and the Leper: Jesus is also said to have healed the blind and the lepers. In Surah Al-Imran (3:49) and Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:110), these healing miracles are attributed to him, performed with Allah's permission.

• Raising the Dead: Jesus is described as having the ability to bring the dead back to life by Allah's permission. This is mentioned in both Surah Al-Imran (3:49) and Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:110).

• Providing Food from Heaven Another miracle involves Jesus requesting a table laden with food from heaven for his disciples. In Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:112-115), this event is recounted where Jesus prays to Allah, and a feast is sent down to serve as a sign for his followers.

Then there is the riding up to heaven on a winged white horse. And:

• Prophet Muhammad's Miracle of the moon splitting. When the unbelievers challenged the Prophet to perform a miracle. ...
• The Tree that Cried. ...
• The Miracle of Water Flowing From The Prophet's Hands. ...
• The Wedding Miracle.

Again we are seventeen centuries after the formation of these myths.

Then there is how Islam is practiced today. @toty and @akay have told us that the vast majority of Islam is peaceful. But if we look at the history of Islam it is anything but peaceful. But we are told these are not 'real' Muslims. But Mohammed himself was not that peaceful in his ascension to power. Of course, we have apologetics excusing this lapse of loving and compassion. We look at the Islamic world today ... the criminal code as it is practiced remains quite barbaric. Islamic countries in general were behind the West to codify the abolition of slavery.

The reason I am not a Muslim is that Islam seems daft to me and I don't have the skill set to buy into it.

 

For me, I think the primary reason I am not a Muslim is that I was not raised in a Muslim country. 

Whilst some people in non-Muslim countries do convert (as people becoming Christian in non-Christian countries do), by and large, religious people adopt the religion of the country they are born and reside in.

There is no denying that strong population growth in countries with a majority of Muslims is correlated with Islam’s exponential rise to prominence as the religion with the quickest rate of expansion. The disproportionate rise in followers is a result of high birth rates and a growing younger population. The global influence of Islam is amplified by the demographic explosion that is occurring in countries with a majority of Muslims.

There are more than two billion Muslims around the world making Islam the second-largest religion in the world, only behind Christianity. Consistent growth has significant effects on the socio-religious landscape and is not only a statistical phenomenon. These growing populations’ youth create an environment that is helpful for the preservation of Islamic customs and beliefs.

[romansh]

Yes ... I get that growing up in a community, family or circle of friends will influence your direction. But at the time did you not look over the fence and say god other beliefs are a bit weird? Of course, we can quite rationally pick holes in the beliefs of others, whilst we are completely blind to our own. Christians I think have beliefs similar in structure to those of Muslims. I could have had a similar list for Christian beliefs. It would be a shorter list for Jewish religious beliefs. The Hindu stuff I know next to nothing about. Buddhism ... I could buy into some of the secular aspects ... but the rituals and meditation ... no thanks.

This is why I tend towards agnosticism, on the atheistic side, of course.

[PaulS]

9 hours ago, romansh said:

Yes ... I get that growing up in a community, family or circle of friends will influence your direction. But at the time did you not look over the fence and say god other beliefs are a bit weird?

Of course!  In fact, looking at other religions (and other 'cult' denominations of Christianity - as we called them anyway) only reinforced my beliefs!  I was on the right path and I 'knew' it!

Adult conversions, of any religion, where the adherent sticks at it for the rest of their life, are few and far between.  Most religious growth comes from breeding (hence the disproportionate rise in Muslim believers in Muslim countries).  Yes, there will be some conversions of adults, but statistically it is insignificant.

[romansh]

OK ... what are the reasons you are not convinced by Islam today?

 

edit
Why are @toty, Naik and all the videos not convincing you?  

Edited July 7 by romansh

[PaulS]

20 minutes ago, romansh said:

OK ... what are the reasons you are not convinced by Islam today?

edit
Why are @toty, Naik and all the videos not convincing you?  

I see Islam the same as I see fundamental Christianity - it's all about belief, belief, belief. To me it seems that 'God' is so weak that humankind  has to do so much to make people believe in God!

I left fundamental Christianity because it didn't like to be challenged by narratives that didn't fit what it was saying, it deliberately ignored facts and science that shot down its claims, and it discouraged true questioning and doubting.  So they're probably the initial reasons why I have no interest in Islam.

The 2nd tier of reasons for no interest in Islam are simply the science and the facts.  I know precisely how people like @toty and @akay feel about facts that threaten their beliefs, but I have no interest in going down that path. I value questioning, doubt, and science. I can't make what I know, fit any longer into these small 'theological' schemes.

At best I am agnostic about there being 'something', however unlikely I think that is.  I am certainly atheist in that I do not believe in a theistic God sitting out there somewhere, just beyond the grasp of reality, somewhere watching and waiting like a tortured parent, but prepared to torture their wayward offspring for all of eternity.  I can't believe anything else other than I think it is nonsense.

[romansh]

4 hours ago, PaulS said:

I see Islam the same as I see fundamental Christianity

What about the meat*, potatoes, and two veg types of Christianity? You know run of the mill: Anglican, Lutheran and Catholic beliefs. People in these mindsets don't seem to be as fixed as evangelicals as a rule.

 

 

 

 

*obviously not pork

[PaulS]

40 minutes ago, romansh said:

What about the meat*, potatoes, and two veg types of Christianity? You know run of the mill: Anglican, Lutheran and Catholic beliefs. People in these mindsets don't seem to be as fixed as evangelicals as a rule.

*obviously not pork

Yes, I'm more lenient concerning those versions of Christianity and deliberately cited 'fundamental' Christianity when explaining those reasons.  Much like @toty / @akay here who comes across as a more fundamental Muslim (although perhaps not fundamental enough to detonate himself in the name of Allah, thankfully).

Those 'run of the mill' denominations still hold to a number of various beliefs that I personally find deficient.  I think for others, if their religious beliefs makes them a 'better' person who contributes positively to the world, then all power to them.  I just don't think I need to try and make myself believe such beliefs to participate similarly in the world.

Interestingly, there are 'Progressive' Muslim organizations that are also challenging interpreting Islam for the 21st century, much like Progressive Christianity is challenging outdated beliefs. Here's some interesting stats from the website of Muslims for Progressive Values (pork doesn't seem a big issue for them and I struggled to find any comments one way or the other):

 

 

[romansh]

Interesting ... I wonder whether @toty thinks of them as fake Muslims or not. Thanks. Is the Qur'an the word of god for these progressives? Where do they stand on evolution?

You mention the word "deficient". Is that a euphemism for "plain wrong"?  I see "progressiveness" as a stepping stone to rational unbelief. To be fair I have come across atheists who see it as enabling future irrational beliefs. I suspect progressiveness works in both directions. Joseph in the past has suggested we be "accepting" and then goes on to suggest it does not mean apathetic. 

I don't believe that Islam has ever been this cuddly version.

[PaulS]

On 7/7/2024 at 11:38 PM, romansh said:

Interesting ... I wonder whether @toty thinks of them as fake Muslims or not. Thanks. Is the Qur'an the word of god for these progressives? Where do they stand on evolution?

Undoubtedly, they will consider them not 'proper' Muslims, as they don't seem to adhere to the dogma that @toty and @akay blindly follow.
I really haven't studied Progressive Islam much, so couldn't tell you how they view the Quran itself, or their views on evolution.

On 7/7/2024 at 11:38 PM, romansh said:

You mention the word "deficient". Is that a euphemism for "plain wrong"?  I see "progressiveness" as a stepping stone to rational unbelief. To be fair I have come across atheists who see it as enabling future irrational beliefs. I suspect progressiveness works in both directions. Joseph in the past has suggested we be "accepting" and then goes on to suggest it does not mean apathetic. 

As for the word 'deficient' - I mean that in the sense that they don't offer me much at all. Some I do see as just plain wrong, but others I am agnostic about.

On 7/7/2024 at 11:38 PM, romansh said:

I don't believe that Islam has ever been this cuddly version.

Perhaps not, I really haven't looked into it much.  This website https://www.mpv-australia.org/ seems to offer similar values as Progressive Christianity when it comes to interpreting their holy book, but I think it is still a ways of from considering the Quran is not the word of God, but rather a book written by a man.

 

[romansh]

5 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Undoubtedly, they will consider them not 'proper' Muslims, as they don't seem to adhere to the dogma that @toty and @akay blindly follow.

I guess we'll never know what @toty thinks.

[PaulS]

Just now, romansh said:

I guess we'll never know what @toty thinks.

Well, unless it's in a YouTube video!

[romansh]

22 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Well, unless it's in a YouTube video!

Are you insinuating @toty is really Zakir Naik?

[PaulS]

1 hour ago, romansh said:

Are you insinuating @toty is really Zakir Naik?

Ha!  I guess anything is possible, but no, I didn't expect them to be the same. Maybe they are - they are certainly aligned in their misunderstanding of science, evolution, biology and human sciences.

[romansh]

20 hours ago, PaulS said:

misunderstanding of science, evolution, biology and human sciences.

I don't think @toty has a misunderstanding, just that he completely lacks understanding of what understanding is.

[PaulS]

It was our annual sausage making day yesterday. I think you can guess the meat used! 😝