The Invitation to do the Greater Things

[Guest Thijs Hottenhuis]

One of the most provocative and encouraging statements I have found in the Bible is this one:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.” (John 14:12, NKJV)

For me, this means also that I should not put any limits on what I think I can or cannot do, or rather, what the Love, Power and Wisdom of God can do through me. I believe following Jesus is adventurous, do you also experience it this way?

[tariki]

I don't really feel any special commission to do anything. In the Buddhist tradition it tends to be said that we should study Dharma for the sake of Dharma. The rest is left to the way of no-calculation. 

Maybe the greatest thing is genuine transformation. As you imply, this is not really our work. I think that when we seek explicitly to evangelise it can all take a nasty turn!

Sadly, many DO put limits - if it is not in the name of Jesus it is not recognised, even denied. 

Anyway, welcome to the forum.

 

[PaulS]

23 hours ago, Thijs Hottenhuis said:

One of the most provocative and encouraging statements I have found in the Bible is this one:

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.” (John 14:12, NKJV)

For me, this means also that I should not put any limits on what I think I can or cannot do, or rather, what the Love, Power and Wisdom of God can do through me. I believe following Jesus is adventurous, do you also experience it this way?

For me personally Thijs, I find life in general adventurous, and don't in particular feel that following Jesus makes it anymore adventurous or not.  But please, I think if following Jesus gives you that strength to feel there are no limits to what you can do, then all power to you. Obviously lots of people, draw inspiration for how to live their lives, from how they view Jesus to have lived his life and what they understand about the whole Jesus story. But I'm not so sure that is always very useful - I mean the old "What would Jesus do" approach is wrought with personal bias and understanding about who Jesus was and how he lived. I have seen some pretty nasty and ignorant Christians who truly believe they are living their life exactly how Jesus would want them to.  To some degree, I think it is all in the eye of the beholder as to whether people are living their lives to the fullest.

To the particular verse you quote though, I don't particularly see any Christians doing greater works than Jesus. Maybe they live their lives similarly (as we understand the Jesus story and interpretation) but I do reckon the 'greater works' stuff is pretty much non-existent.  Where might you see followers of Jesus doing greater works than Jesus himself did?  Frankly, I don't think Jesus actually said that.  Maybe you don't either, but still use the verse for inspiration?  If so, again, all power to you with whatever helps with live your best life, I say.

[Guest Thijs Hottenhuis]

Thanks for responding, Tariki. I believe we are asked by Jesus, personally, to do works. “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.” All the healing, the teaching, is a form of active works, which I believe is one of the differences between Buddhism and Christianity. About evangelising: if we are led by Divine Guidance, it can only be a blessing, but if we are led by our personal opinions, it can indeed take a nasty turn. That is how I understand things. Thank you for welcoming me here, Tariki. Blessings to you!

 

[Guest Thijs Hottenhuis]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:23 AM, PaulS said:

For me personally Thijs, I find life in general adventurous, and don't in particular feel that following Jesus makes it anymore adventurous or not.  But please, I think if following Jesus gives you that strength to feel there are no limits to what you can do, then all power to you. Obviously lots of people, draw inspiration for how to live their lives, from how they view Jesus to have lived his life and what they understand about the whole Jesus story. But I'm not so sure that is always very useful - I mean the old "What would Jesus do" approach is wrought with personal bias and understanding about who Jesus was and how he lived. I have seen some pretty nasty and ignorant Christians who truly believe they are living their life exactly how Jesus would want them to.  To some degree, I think it is all in the eye of the beholder as to whether people are living their lives to the fullest.

To the particular verse you quote though, I don't particularly see any Christians doing greater works than Jesus. Maybe they live their lives similarly (as we understand the Jesus story and interpretation) but I do reckon the 'greater works' stuff is pretty much non-existent.  Where might you see followers of Jesus doing greater works than Jesus himself did?  Frankly, I don't think Jesus actually said that.  Maybe you don't either, but still use the verse for inspiration?  If so, again, all power to you with whatever helps with live your best life, I say.

Hey Paul, thank you for your reply. I am a bit surprised about the “following Jesus” statement you make. I believe the essence of Christianity is following Jesus, and not leaning on your own understanding.

It is true that not many Christians demonstrate the same things which Jesus was doing, let alone the greater things. I believe this is caused by people having a greater focus on the world than on the Kingdom of God.

What I can see as being something greater than what Jesus did while He walked the earth was a mass resurrection, a mass awakening, a mass ascension of humanity. That would truly be something in the category of “the greater things”, wouldn’t you agree?

I am very curious, since you are an admin of a Christian forum, how do you see Christianity? What is your definition of being a Christian? Are you willing to share something about that?

 

[PaulS]

6 hours ago, Thijs Hottenhuis said:

Hey Paul, thank you for your reply. I am a bit surprised about the “following Jesus” statement you make. I believe the essence of Christianity is following Jesus, and not leaning on your own understanding.

It is true that not many Christians demonstrate the same things which Jesus was doing, let alone the greater things. I believe this is caused by people having a greater focus on the world than on the Kingdom of God.

What I can see as being something greater than what Jesus did while He walked the earth was a mass resurrection, a mass awakening, a mass ascension of humanity. That would truly be something in the category of “the greater things”, wouldn’t you agree?

I am very curious, since you are an admin of a Christian forum, how do you see Christianity? What is your definition of being a Christian? Are you willing to share something about that?

 

Well Thijs, I actually think the only way that anybody 'follows Jesus' is exactly through their own understanding of who Jesus was and what sort of life he lived, rather than some sort of precise knowledge of Jesus that traditional Christianity has taught most of us.   Traditional Christianity would have us believe there is only one way to understand the Jesus story.  In many ways, I would beg to differ.

As to your point about mass resurrection, mass awakening, mass ascension of humanity - I don't see these as being acts of individuals as that verse said people would perform.  I don't disagree there has been a mass following of what we today call Christianity, but that verse quite clearly talks about individuals performing acts greater than Jesus himself, which I don't particularly think is demonstrated by any particular individuals since then.  I think that it's a manipulation of the verse to mean it's actually trying to argue about greater things happening in general, when the verse is clearly talking about individuals performing greater acts than Jesus himself. 

I'm more than happy to share about how I see Christianity and how to define it, but I think the easiest way (yet I am happy to discuss further if you need) is to quote the 8 Points of Progressive Christianity as outlined on our mother site - Progressive Christianity.org:

By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who…

1. Believe that following the path of the teacher Jesus can lead to healing and wholeness, a mystical connection to “God,” as well as an awareness and experience of not only the Sacred, but the Oneness and Unity of all life;

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness, Oneness and Unity of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom, including Earth, in our spiritual journey;

3. Seek and create community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to:
Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
Believers and agnostics,
Women and men,
Those of all races, cultures, and nationalities
Those of all sexual orientations and all gender identities,
Those of all classes and abilities;
All creatures and plant life;

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another and Earth is the fullest expression of what we believe, therefore we vow to walk as Jesus might have walked in his world with radical compassion, inclusion, and bravery to confront and positively change the injustices we experience as well as those we see others experiencing;

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning with an open mind and open heart, than in absolutes or dogma;

6. Work toward peace and justice among all people and all life on Earth;

7. Protect and restore the integrity of our Earth and all of Creation;

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love on this journey toward a personally authentic and meaningful faith.

I hope this helps answer your question, but if not, I am more than happy to discuss further.

Cheers

Paul

 

 

 

[tariki]

7 hours ago, Thijs Hottenhuis said:

 All the healing, the teaching, is a form of active works, which I believe is one of the differences between Buddhism and Christianity.

 

Is this a form of the "languid east" syndrome? 😀

Yes, it is Dharma for the sake of Dharma. All else, including "works" are simply by-products. 

Which should be evident to any Christian who relies upon Grace for salvation. 

Thank you. 

 

 

 

[tariki]

7 hours ago, Thijs Hottenhuis said:

Thanks for responding, Tariki. I believe we are asked by Jesus, personally, to do works. “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons.” All the healing, the teaching, is a form of active works, which I believe is one of the differences between Buddhism and Christianity. About evangelising: if we are led by Divine Guidance, it can only be a blessing, but if we are led by our personal opinions, it can indeed take a nasty turn. That is how I understand things. Thank you for welcoming me here, Tariki. Blessings to you!

 

Oh, and just to add, I am not a Christian. However, as I was once considered totally harmless (😀) by the then Administrator of this Forum, I was given permission to post wherever I liked. 

Maybe you would like to pop across to the "Other Wisdom Traditions" and take a peep at some poetry of Dogen?

Whatever, enjoy the Forum.

 

 

 

 

[Guest Thijs Hottenhuis]

9 hours ago, PaulS said:

Well Thijs, I actually think the only way that anybody 'follows Jesus' is exactly through their own understanding of who Jesus was and what sort of life he lived, rather than some sort of precise knowledge of Jesus that traditional Christianity has taught most of us.   Traditional Christianity would have us believe there is only one way to understand the Jesus story.  In many ways, I would beg to differ.

As to your point about mass resurrection, mass awakening, mass ascension of humanity - I don't see these as being acts of individuals as that verse said people would perform.  I don't disagree there has been a mass following of what we today call Christianity, but that verse quite clearly talks about individuals performing acts greater than Jesus himself, which I don't particularly think is demonstrated by any particular individuals since then.  I think that it's a manipulation of the verse to mean it's actually trying to argue about greater things happening in general, when the verse is clearly talking about individuals performing greater acts than Jesus himself. 

I'm more than happy to share about how I see Christianity and how to define it, but I think the easiest way (yet I am happy to discuss further if you need) is to quote the 8 Points of Progressive Christianity as outlined on our mother site - Progressive Christianity.org:

By calling ourselves progressive Christians, we mean we are Christians who…

1. Believe that following the path of the teacher Jesus can lead to healing and wholeness, a mystical connection to “God,” as well as an awareness and experience of not only the Sacred, but the Oneness and Unity of all life;

2. Affirm that the teachings of Jesus provide but one of many ways to experience the Sacredness, Oneness and Unity of life, and that we can draw from diverse sources of wisdom, including Earth, in our spiritual journey;

3. Seek and create community that is inclusive of ALL people, including but not limited to:
Conventional Christians and questioning skeptics,
Believers and agnostics,
Women and men,
Those of all races, cultures, and nationalities
Those of all sexual orientations and all gender identities,
Those of all classes and abilities;
All creatures and plant life;

4. Know that the way we behave towards one another and Earth is the fullest expression of what we believe, therefore we vow to walk as Jesus might have walked in his world with radical compassion, inclusion, and bravery to confront and positively change the injustices we experience as well as those we see others experiencing;

5. Find grace in the search for understanding and believe there is more value in questioning with an open mind and open heart, than in absolutes or dogma;

6. Work toward peace and justice among all people and all life on Earth;

7. Protect and restore the integrity of our Earth and all of Creation;

8. Commit to a path of life-long learning, compassion, and selfless love on this journey toward a personally authentic and meaningful faith.

I hope this helps answer your question, but if not, I am more than happy to discuss further.

Cheers

Paul

 

 

 

Hey Paul, thank you for your long and clear answer to my question. I believe that I am somewhere in between the "traditional Christian" who believes the Bible word for word and the 8 point statement you bring up. I do not see the earth as an eternal place, just as a place where we bring the love and learn our lessons, before moving on. Anyway, I appreciate the clarity about how you see things. Cheers, Thijs.

[Guest Thijs Hottenhuis]

8 hours ago, tariki said:

Is this a form of the "languid east" syndrome? 😀

Yes, it is Dharma for the sake of Dharma. All else, including "works" are simply by-products. 

Which should be evident to any Christian who relies upon Grace for salvation. 

Thank you. 

Hey Tariki, I have to agree with you about the Grace part. It is definitely not a matter of achieving something with blood, sweat and tears. Be blessed, Thijs.

[PaulS]

1 hour ago, Thijs Hottenhuis said:

… I do not see the earth as an eternal place, just as a place where we bring the love and learn our lessons, before moving on. 

I agree Thijs - with the earth expected to be consumed by our Sun in about 7.5 billion years time! Almost twice as long as what it has taken our universe to get to this current point!

[tariki]

14 hours ago, Thijs Hottenhuis said:

 I do not see the earth as an eternal place, just as a place where we bring the love and learn our lessons, before moving on. 

Hello again Thijs. You seem to be a friendly chap, which invites discussion and dialogue, unlike some who have drifted into this rather quiet and sedate forum  - which suits a fine upstanding English Gentleman like myself who never voted for Brexi!)

Well, nothing is eternal except eternity itself. Things are always moving on. The problems seem to begin when we want them to stop, to hold onto the moment

William Blake:-

He who binds to himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sun rise.

There is a fine dialogue between "east" and "west" (to use the terms loosely) in "Wisdom in Emptiness", the second section of Thomas Merton's book of essays "Zen and the Birds of Appetite".

It is between Merton himself, the Catholic Trappist monk, and the "zen man" D.T. Suzuki. 

They agree on many things (it is actually a dialogue concerning the "Fall" and of how we can regain Paradise) but part ways on the subject of eschatology.

Suzuki speaks of the "eschatology of the present moment", the eternal NOW, while Merton speaks of some sort of "beyond", of some final consumation in God's Kingdom when all things are handed over to the Son. One never knows with Merton (the anti-monk) as to whether or not he is paying lip service to the Catholic censors. I've stopped trying to guess. Anyone who dallies with young nurses must become suspect.....😀

But whatever, in the past I have tended to side with Suzuki. But the 13th century zen master Dogen seems to offer some sort of reconciliation to the parting of the ways of Suzuki and Merton.

Dogen agrees that the present moment is the "only" moment, yet there is movement toward Buddha. 

But as I see it, this must in a sense be a movement of no-calculation (Japanese "hakarai") Our definitions and conclusions, our beliefs, can forestall the movement, and hold us in the past.

As is said in St Marks gospel, in one of the Parables of the Kingdom:-

The earth brings forth fruits of herself

We can set the sails but then we must wait for the wind to blow.

Who is in control? The spirit blows where it will. 

I rest in Faith rather than belief. Faith "lets go" in pure trust, Grace. Belief clings. Faith unites. Beliefs divide us. 

We need to let go and trust the river of change, or as one joker once said:- "Stand upon the firm ground of emptiness". Or, again, as per the Christian mystic St John of the Cross:-

If we wish to be sure of the road we walk on then we must close our eyes and walk in the dark

Whatever, I still look to Dogen at the moment. He had his own questions, his own Life Koan. In concise form:-

“If all sentient beings possess the buddha-nature and Tathagata exists without change - as enunciated in the Nirvana Sutra - then why must people develop the aspiration for awakening and vigorously engage in austerities in order to realize this truth?”

Later on in life he wrote himself:-

Fundamentally, the basis of the Way is thoroughly pervasive, so how could it be contingent on practice and realization? The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally unrestricted, then why should we expend sustained effort? Surely whole being is far beyond defilement, so who could believe in a method to cultivate it? Never is the Way apart from this very place, so what is the use of a journey to practice it? Yet, if there is a hair’s breadth of distinction between existence and training, this gap becomes as great as that between heaven and earth. Once the slightest sense of liking or disliking something arises, confusion reigns and one’s mind is hopelessly lost in delusion

If I were a Christian I would be a Universalist. Which would change a few words, of Dogen's Life Koan. i.e. If all are saved, what must we do to be saved? 

Well, I have waffled enough. I find myself in MacDonald's with a coffee and just start tapping on my Kindle. I find it therapeutic. And as others have observed, I'm fundamentally harmless.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by tariki

[tariki]

As pure self advertisement, the last post turned into a Blog in glorious technicolor HERE :-

http://mydookiepops.blogspot.com

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by tariki

[Guest Thijs Hottenhuis]

18 hours ago, tariki said:

Hello again Thijs. You seem to be a friendly chap, which invites discussion and dialogue, unlike some who have drifted into this rather quiet and sedate forum  - which suits a fine upstanding English Gentleman like myself who never voted for Brexi!)

Well, nothing is eternal except eternity itself. Things are always moving on. The problems seem to begin when we want them to stop, to hold onto the moment

William Blake:-

He who binds to himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sun rise.

There is a fine dialogue between "east" and "west" (to use the terms loosely) in "Wisdom in Emptiness", the second section of Thomas Merton's book of essays "Zen and the Birds of Appetite".

It is between Merton himself, the Catholic Trappist monk, and the "zen man" D.T. Suzuki. 

They agree on many things (it is actually a dialogue concerning the "Fall" and of how we can regain Paradise) but part ways on the subject of eschatology.

Suzuki speaks of the "eschatology of the present moment", the eternal NOW, while Merton speaks of some sort of "beyond", of some final consumation in God's Kingdom when all things are handed over to the Son. One never knows with Merton (the anti-monk) as to whether or not he is paying lip service to the Catholic censors. I've stopped trying to guess. Anyone who dallies with young nurses must become suspect.....😀

But whatever, in the past I have tended to side with Suzuki. But the 13th century zen master Dogen seems to offer some sort of reconciliation to the parting of the ways of Suzuki and Merton.

Dogen agrees that the present moment is the "only" moment, yet there is movement toward Buddha. 

But as I see it, this must in a sense be a movement of no-calculation (Japanese "hakarai") Our definitions and conclusions, our beliefs, can forestall the movement, and hold us in the past.

As is said in St Marks gospel, in one of the Parables of the Kingdom:-

The earth brings forth fruits of herself

We can set the sails but then we must wait for the wind to blow.

Who is in control? The spirit blows where it will. 

I rest in Faith rather than belief. Faith "lets go" in pure trust, Grace. Belief clings. Faith unites. Beliefs divide us. 

We need to let go and trust the river of change, or as one joker once said:- "Stand upon the firm ground of emptiness". Or, again, as per the Christian mystic St John of the Cross:-

If we wish to be sure of the road we walk on then we must close our eyes and walk in the dark

Whatever, I still look to Dogen at the moment. He had his own questions, his own Life Koan. In concise form:-

“If all sentient beings possess the buddha-nature and Tathagata exists without change - as enunciated in the Nirvana Sutra - then why must people develop the aspiration for awakening and vigorously engage in austerities in order to realize this truth?”

Later on in life he wrote himself:-

Fundamentally, the basis of the Way is thoroughly pervasive, so how could it be contingent on practice and realization? The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally unrestricted, then why should we expend sustained effort? Surely whole being is far beyond defilement, so who could believe in a method to cultivate it? Never is the Way apart from this very place, so what is the use of a journey to practice it? Yet, if there is a hair’s breadth of distinction between existence and training, this gap becomes as great as that between heaven and earth. Once the slightest sense of liking or disliking something arises, confusion reigns and one’s mind is hopelessly lost in delusion

If I were a Christian I would be a Universalist. Which would change a few words, of Dogen's Life Koan. i.e. If all are saved, what must we do to be saved? 

Well, I have waffled enough. I find myself in MacDonald's with a coffee and just start tapping on my Kindle. I find it therapeutic. And as others have observed, I'm fundamentally harmless.

Thanks, Tariki, for you long and interesting answer. There is a lot of debate going on among human beings about what is the Truth and what is not, and what is the best or fastest or only path to get there. I believe that in the end, when we experience Perfection and the Peace of God/Eternal Bliss, we will laugh about all the discussions we had about this. I also believe there are many ways to increase ones spiritual consciousness. My main spiritual teacher is Rananda, this is his website: https://rananda.org/ Maybe it will resonate with you, maybe not. Love and blessings to you!

[Guest Thijs Hottenhuis]

9 hours ago, tariki said:

As pure self advertisement, the last post turned into a Blog in glorious technicolor HERE :-

http://mydookiepops.blogspot.com

Thank you for sharing, nice graphics you use. This is my own blog at the moment, recently started: https://sharingchristianinspiration.substack.com/

[tariki]

3 hours ago, Thijs Hottenhuis said:

Thank you for sharing, nice graphics you use. This is my own blog at the moment, recently started: https://sharingchristianinspiration.substack.com/

Thanks Thijs, I'll take a look. And the rananda site.