luthitarian

Over on B'net, I go by Luthitarian also (so, my imagination is limited--sue me!)  

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I use AletheiaRivers all over the web. I like using the same name. It's like a footprint; clues to follow.

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Aletheia, do you find getting around on the B'net boards easier than the layout here? Of course, I'm still getting accustomed to it over here, but this seems so much more difficult to sort out.

However, I can see one distinct advantage, and this may be one of the things that threw me at first: it's easier to respond to a specific post (that may not be the most recent or among the most recent) without getting lost or following the thread. Also, it's handy to have the emoticons right here handy and available.

Welcome to our rebellious little band of theological misfits, at least that's what others probably say. But then, who care's what others may think !

 

Again, welcome !

 

flow....

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May heretics abound!

I didn't mention Spong, but now that you bring him up, he's a darn good one to read, too!

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Dang it! I meant Crossan. I had Crossan's face pictured in my mind when I wrote the reply. I don't know why I said Spong. Argh!

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Aletheia,

 

Perhaps it was a 'Freudian Slip' of which I also have been known to slip into now and then!

 

If you try Spong I suggest This Hebrew Lord... which you will undoubtably find that Spong is very much a follower of Jesus... an easy read!

 

Good luck,

Dave

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Don't ask Jerry Falwell if he thinks Spong is a follower of Jesus. Would you believe Spong's first church as a new pastor was in Falls Chruch, VA where Falwell and his Liberty Christian Church thrive? I think they may have locked horns way back then, even.

Hmmmm... been thinking of a sequel.

How about Debbie does Dionysus ?

It's got a kinky Greek angle to it maybe ?

We could film it in the valley somewhere. I like outdoor adventures.

That Debbie sure does get around !

 

flow....

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I think I met Debbie once...What a flake!!

I didn't - and won't - go to Divinity School. But studying religion at my moderate/liberal Baptist University certainly shaped who I am today. Going into college, I was already more moderate and less conservative than my parents, I was just afraid to admit it(lots of long stories there). Through college, seeing the hypocrisy of certain christian students, as well as learning some of the things I learned in classes, finally led me to becoming open to the world of the liberal questioner.

 

Which makes it aggravating to have to still live with my conservative family. Last time my mom and I got in a serious religious conversation, she told me that I was hard-hearted and evil, and would probably die soon  because I was turning away from God. 

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Wow! That's sad. Sorry to hear she had that reaction. My brother and my ex-wife are both fundamentalist Christians (During our marriage, we went to a Lutheran church, where she apparently kept to herself her Right wing Christian sympathies, and as soon as we split, she made a hard right!) I tend to stay off the subjects of religion and politics with both of them. Otherewise, there would be no relationship at all, or a very strained and unpleasant one.

I agree, Luth. The older I get, the more tolerant and liberal I become.

 

As for me, I would definitely classify myself as a seeker at this time of my life. I love asking the questions. Sometimes I obsess over it (I think I'm borderline-OCD; I ask questions and obsess, then get frustrated when I can't come up with answers that make sense to me right away o.O). I may enter the 'knowing' phase in the future, but that is yet to be determined. And it will be awhile - I'm only 23, after all.

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Only 23? Chad, I 'd say you can look forward to an interesting journey!

And don't count on ever really feeling that things are pinned down to where you can say you 'know' them. Once you do, you are in danger of becoming stuck. There is a bumper sticker that appeals to me: "MILITANT AGNOSTIC!. I don't know and neither do you.

Are you familiar with Terry Pratchett, the author of the Discworld novels? In one, Small Gods, a philosopher says something to the effect: "We're here and this is now. As I see it, everything else is pretty much up for grabs."

For some time, I 've been a regular on the discussion boards on Beliefnet, and I like the diversity over there, but I hope to find much more in the way of Progressive Xianity here.

 

Would I recognize your handle from the Christian to Christian debate board? If you don't want to say what it is, I totally understand.

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Over on B'net, I go by Luthitarian also (so, my imagination is limited--sue me!) I generall stay away from the Christian to Christian debate boards, because...well...people don't often behave very much as Christians. I tend any more to just hang out with selected discussion groups. Less stress on the old blood pressure!

PP is clearly closer to Process Theology and its Panentheism than to a supernatural theism.  Marcus Borg does a great job of contrasting these two concepts of God in THE HEART OF CHRISTIANITY.

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MT, I'm a perennialist, although I don't often use the term anymore. I'm also a panentheist. I'm not a Process Theist however. I probably fall closer to "Idealism."

 

Here is a great article about Chrisitan Perennialism. Christian Perennial Philosophy

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Perennialist?? Gee! I thought that had to do with flowers...

Actually, I would tend to see panentheism and process theology as being very similar in many respects...at least in that God is viewed--as Tillich might have put it--the "God above the God of theism".

I've read just about everything from Borg. I haven't read anything from Spong. I think I'll give this book a try. 

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I didn't mention Spong, but now that you bring him up, he's a darn good one to read, too! You might start with Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, Why Christianity Must Change or Die, and A New Christianity for a New World. These taken together form what might almost be a manifesto for Progressive Christianity. Great stuff!!

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From where I sit, it doesn't hurt that he self-identifies as a 'disciple' of Paul Tillich--he da man!

I've read just about everything from Borg. I haven't read anything from Spong. I think I'll give this book a try. 

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I didn't mention Spong, but now that you bring him up, he's a darn good one to read, too! You might start with Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, Why Christianity Must Change or Die, and A New Christianity for a New World. These taken together form what might almost be a manifesto for Progressive Christianity. Great stuff!!

Thanks for this opportunity

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Okay, I'm a flaming panentheist who sees God as the ground of being moving in and through all of existence and all creation--right down to those funky little subatomic particles. Luther put it (in his typically graphic manner): "God can even be found in the contents of the belly of a louse!" To me, God ain't all that different from the Tao of Lao Tzu, or the Ultimate Reality of Process theology. Praying to God in a typically theistic manner, then, is a challenge at times.

 

One source of prayers I have found to be moving and meaningful, and have used in worship is the book, Guerrilas of Grace , by Ted Loder. Another book contains prayers written specifically from a panentheistic perspective. I'll be hanged if I can remember the title just now. It's sitting at home on my shelf of books of prayer and contemplation. I'll have to come up with that title and author later.

 

As a chaplain, I often like to recall Psalm 139 in which God is understood as inescapeable and to be found everywhere. I like to pray something like, "Gracious Lord, source of all compassion and hope, help us to be aware of your Presence, which is as close as our own heartbeats and as much a part of us as our own breath. May we be open to that Presence that we may draw strength, comfort, courage, and hope, that it bring the power of healing and peace, and that it ground us in love and compassion and support for one another in this difficult, stressful, time." Or something along those lines, anyway.

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Okay, as promised, the book I spoke of but couldn't recall is A Prayer Book for the 21st Century by John McQuiston II (foreword by Marcus Borg). From the back of the book: "This unique prayer book uses language that is at once ancient and orthodox, as well as contemporary and innovative. Rediscover thepoewr of morning and evening prayer, along with some services for small or large groups, in this reparkable new prayer book."

Another one worth mentioning, is a small book of prayers by (and inspired by) Rebbe (Rabbi) Nachman of Breslov who died in 1810 at the age of 38: The Gentle Weapon: Prayers for Everday and Not-So-Everday Moments. God is addressed in these prayers in almost mystical, impersonal ways, such as: "Eternal Companion", "Source of all the energy of life", "O LIfe of the World", "Source of all Sustenance", "God of Wholeness; God of Healing" and other such titles--sometime even simply "O God" or "Dear God"or "Master of the Universe" (To think there was a dorky kids' cartoon series that borrowed--unwittingly, I'm sure--for its title a classic Jewish title for God!).

When I came across this book at my local library, I knew it was a winner, given the authors. I've read stuff by each of them, and figured anything these guys co-authored had to be really good!

I wasn't disappointed in the least! It deals with the final week of Jesus, from Palm (or Passion) Sunday, until the following Sunday of Easter morning. It follows the Gospel of Mark for two reasons: one, it is the oldest, and closer to the time of Jesus to start with, and two, it is the only gospel that gives not only a day by day account, but also breaks down the days into times, or watches. It would be handy almost as a commentary on that portion of the Gospel of Mark, given its passage by passage study.

I no more than turned it in to the library when I was finished, but I went on Amazon and ordered my own copy. Luth

I think there is also a denomination called Christian Church(Disciple of Christ) that are relatively liberal.

 

MOW

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Yes to all of the above! Personally, I can speak for the UU's and the ELCA Lutherans.

As for the Presbyterians, make that PCUSA., or Presbyterian Church of the United States of America. The other Presbys are way too conservative--witness D. James Kennedy and his crowd of Calvinist/Dominion theology folks. Luth

I just saw one that totally shocked me: God is my pilot. Or something like that. It's supposed to be "Dog is my co-pilot". I think the guy has dyslexia.  :-)

 

--des

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Shouldn't that be "Pontius is my Pilate?"

God is my navigator (and I think she's lost, too.)

As you may already know, friends, one of my favorite things to do on this forum is to present two things as if they are mutually exclusive, appear to affirm one over the other, and then conclude by claiming that I might be the opposite or both.

 

Here's my blanket generalization:

 

Seekers live the questions.

 

 

<<WARNING:  heavily biased statement >>

Knowers content themselves with knowing the answers

 

 

I'll rephrase:

 

Knowers are content with the answers.

 

Which are you?  Are you so obsessed with asking questions that you don't take the time to listen for the answers.  Or are you so arrogant to believe you have the answers and don't ever ask the questions?

 

Yo! Yo! Yo! Break it down now...

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I tend to be pretty satisfied that faith isn't so much something that provides certainty as that which grants the grace and courage to live with uncertainty. So, I would have to say I'm pretty much a seeker by your definition.

However, I remember someone saying that to question is both to know and to seek. There must be some knowledge in order to frame the question (this is painfully obvious to me where computers are concerned--sometimes I haven't a clue how to frame the question to find what I need to know!), and also something sought necessitating the question in the first place. So, aren't we all something of a mix, never really one or the other? Whether we recognize it or admit it is another matter!

I have strong, clear, beliefs, but they are, I would hope, open to growth. My theology has never been static. Interestingly (to me, anyway), I have gotten more liberal and less doctrinaire as I get older. Luth

Seminary may encourage doubt, but that isn't, as I see it, a bad thing at all. Doubt--rather than being a threat to faith, usually ends up being the growing pains of faith--at least, I think, for those who are willing to hang in there with the discomfort and anxiety of uncertainty.

In my case, as an undergraduate studying Scripture at a Catholic college where I was introduced to historical criticism, and later, where I found myself reading hungrily anything I could find by theologians like Tillich, my faith was often stretched to the point of great discomfort and my assumptions were frequently challenged. When I went off then to seminary, I was pretty well ready to deal with the 'deconstruction' that took place there, and the opening up to deeper, newer, avenues of exploring my faith tradition.

I would say, if it hadn't been for the challenges to the religion of my childhood and its fundamentalist outlook, I would not have grown in faith and would have left it behind for something a lot more 'rational'. My undergraduate and graduate study of religion and theology kept me in the church, rather than leading me out of it. Luth

Thanks for this opportunity

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Okay, I'm a flaming panentheist who sees God as the ground of being moving in and through all of existence and all creation--right down to those funky little subatomic particles. Luther put it (in his typically graphic manner): "God can even be found in the contents of the belly of a louse!" To me, God ain't all that different from the Tao of Lao Tzu, or the Ultimate Reality of Process theology. Praying to God in a typically theistic manner, then, is a challenge at times.

One source of prayers I have found to be moving and meaningful, and have used in worship is the book, Guerrilas of Grace , by Ted Loder. Another book contains prayers written specifically from a panentheistic perspective. I'll be hanged if I can remember the title just now. It's sitting at home on my shelf of books of prayer and contemplation. I'll have to come up with that title and author later.

As a chaplain, I often like to recall Psalm 139 in which God is understood as inescapeable and to be found everywhere. I like to pray something like, "Gracious Lord, source of all compassion and hope, help us to be aware of your Presence, which is as close as our own heartbeats and as much a part of us as our own breath. May we be open to that Presence that we may draw strength, comfort, courage, and hope, that it bring the power of healing and peace, and that it ground us in love and compassion and support for one another in this difficult, stressful, time." Or something along those lines, anyway.

I once styopped ina  Christian bookstore and asked if they had anything by Bonhoeffer.  I was told no, that it was a Chrstian bookstore.

 

I here ya there, Jack. I live in the Bible Belt and the "Christian" bookstores are limited to 1) fundamentalist only and 2) Catholic only. I have to go to Barnes and Nobles to find anyone like Borg or Spong. It is all part of the Right's agenda to push itself as the ONLY interpretation of Christianity (apart from Catholics, which they believe all go to hell).

 

sounds more like a quote from the battle between Frankfurt and Starsbourg durng Mary Tudor's era than the churches of today. The Church is always in need of reform, not the condemnation and judgment of which it is accused.

 

I'm not aware of that context, my friend. They were just my remarks. But I certainly agree that the church is always in need of reform.

 

I find non liturgical worship too often bordering on putting on a show and far too much staked on a sermon a if worship is for an intllectual discourse rather than the communal gathering of the people of God.

 

I agree. My church's Easter service was more like a Broadway show than a worship event. But I'm still relunctant to revert to mumbling in Latin when I have no idea what I'm saying.

 

wayfarer

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Love that line about not being able to find Bonhoeffer in a Christian bookstore! I heard something similar: a person was looking in for a cd of Handle's Messiah, and asked the clerk (who probably just graduated from register jockey at McDonald's). Her reply was an impatient, "Sir, we only have Christian music here!" Luth

Welcome.

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"Where two or three are gathered in my name..."

I can always count on running into another "Bob". Just call me Bob or Luth--whatever. Thanks for the welcome.

Wow! You'll fit in with our eclectic group just fine. 

 

Unitutheran. LOL.

 

Welcome to TCPC.

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Thanks! Kinda figured I would! Looking forward to getting to know folks around here.

For some time, I 've been a regular on the discussion boards on Beliefnet, and I like the diversity over there, but I hope to find much more in the way of Progressive Xianity here.

Thanks again for the welcome! Luth

Happy to be aboard! I am a former Lutheran minister (ELCA), now a hospital chaplain and member of a Unitarian Universalist congregation. Hence Luth + itarian. (I could have gone with Unitutheran, but I couldn't say that and keep a straight face).

My theological 'heroes' would have to be Paul Tillich, John Dominic Crossan, Marcus Borg, and Bishop Spong. I recently read Crossan and Borg's The Last Week, which was a terrific look at the final week of Jesus' life according to the Gospel of Mark.

I have a keen interest in Buddhism and in East/West religious dialogue (also, as one might guess, in the contemplative traditions of Christianity represented by, say, for example,Thomas Merton and Br. David Steindl-Rast; and of Buddhism, represented by the Dalai Lama and Thich Nhat Hanh especially.

One of the things that appeals to me about being a chaplain in an urban trauma center is the diversity of the cultures and faiths I serve.