minsocal

In Australia, the 'nones' are also the 2nd largest group, but it hasn't been a dramatic shift that has somehow left a hole in community. Steadily over the last 100 years or so, the 'nones' have grown from 0.4% to 25% of the population. I haven't observed a noticeable breakdown in community and I haven't read of any such views. I suspect a wide variety of other things have filled the 'gap' so to speak, at various times and for some in an increasing manner:

• political activism
  
• sport
  
• other recreational activities
  
• war
  
• eastern and other foreign traditions
  

So I think those needs that Myron mentions are still beign fulfilled (in Australia anyhow), just in groups of a reduced size rather than one big label.

 

Perhaps in Australia the population doesn't have such an urge toward the spiritual as Searle suggests. Certainly the information below (Wikipedia) rings true for me:

 

Although many Australians identify themselves as religious, the majority consider religion the least important aspect of their lives when compared with family, partners, work and career, leisure time and politics.^[16] This is reflected in Australia's church attendance rates, which are among the lowest in the world and in continuing decline.^[17][18] In explaining this phenomenon, writer and broadcaster Paul Collins said "Australians are quietly spiritual rather than explicitly religious", and famous historian Manning Clark defined Australian spirituality as "a shy hope in the heart .... understated, wary of enthusiasm, anti-authoritarian, optimistic, open to others, self-deprecating and ultimately characterized by a serious quiet reverence, a deliberate silence, an inarticulate awe and a serious distaste for glib wordiness."^[19]

Paul,

I understand. Yet, much of my research has owed a deep debt of gratitude to Dr. Paul Valent, an Austrialian psychologist and traumatologist. He surivived the Holocaust and went on to examine why people survive these experiences. His conclusion is that spiritualty is a dimension of human existance that can lead to resiliance. I agree.

Myron

That is a valid concern. The 'bowling alone' phenomenon cannot be healthy.

 

What has happened in Europe with the increased levels of secularism? In the UK, there is a pub culture that may have partially filled the gap, but what else and what about elsewhere?

 

George

George,

Charles Darwin expressed a similar concern, as did A. N. Whitehead and C. G. Jung. In a very important sense, we were warned but we have not listened. Elsewhere I stated that mutuality is a demanding force on our lives. Responsibilty is demanding. We need each other. We are social beings. John Searle states that we have inborn mechanisms to react to these demands. I agree.

Progressives need to know this and pass this wisdom on. But how?

Myron

Healthy adult relationship exhibit mutuality in relationships. This is powerful, but mutuality is also a limiting factor. It takes work. It involves adult trust in another. It involves a high level of adult intimacy. It can be scary.

So where does polygamy fall in this discussion?

-------------------

Do the relationships contribute to the wholeness of all involved?

 

The weakness of using this as a sole criteria is that often we do not know what is good for ourselves. Polygamy more often than not I suspect is about power and not relationship. I will have to look up the evolutionary view. It does favor the male's genes but I forget what the best stategy for a woman is.

 

Dutch

Dutch,

Thank you so much for your observation. As a gay male, I can say that wholeness in a relationship IS very important to me. It was also a key factor in the ruling of the California Supreme Court when it determined that gay marriage was in the best interest of wholeness in relationships, including the children of gay couples.

Myron

I have a close friend who is moderately OCD. Over time he has moved into the world of rite and ritual and his symptoms of OCD have reduced. Are we overvaluing the analytical view of religion? Pehaps.

Myron,

 

I agree that fear of being caught is a simplistic way to understand the sense that there is Law or Guidance about what is right beyond anyone's possession. Otherwise we would not challenge those with legal or religious anointing by saying, "Wait, that's not right." even when it is not against the law. To call it supernatural is to freeze one stage of development in human experience.

 

Dutch

Dutch,

I agree. If I were to rephrase what you said, it would be to say that developmet requires a move towards self responsibility. This is what Joseph Campbell called "follwing your bliss". Bliss is "the experience of life as a self responsible individual." How this come about? It came ar the point in evolution where we came conscious, sentient beings. Some think that this is the story of the Garden of Eden and I share this view.

I am in agreement with C. G. Jung on the centrality of consciouness for contemporary humans. Yes, I know that Jung is best known for his theory of the collective unconsious and archetypes. His work is much broader, however. What he worried about was a tendency to place too great an emphasis on the either unconscious or consciouness. We have our evolutionary past which, for the purpose here, is Jung's collective unconscious. It is autonomous yet it part of what we call "experience". We experience the effects of evolution and (hopefull) honor it and integrate it into our understanding through conscious processes. This adds meaning to Campbell's notion of being "self responsible". After all, Campbell and Jung were friends and Campbell edited some of Jung's later publications.

Myron

More in due time.

Myron

It just happened to be the case that I had this very article open in my browser as I opened a tab to this forum. It is interesting to note that the decline is manily within Protetestant denominations. While I agree that science has played a significant role in the decline of religious affiliation, I worry that other social institutions will not fill in the gap.

What is "the gap"? Noted phllosopher John Searle, a self proclaimed atheist, has said that a majority of humans have "an urge towards the spiritual". I suspect he is correct. I think the demographics noted in the article are important. Much of the decline is concentrated in the younger age group. It could then be argued that this is where religion is failing. We have failed to give our children a relevant message or purpose for maintaining relgious affliations. The question I have is whether they will return in later life as I did.

That is not the only problem, IMO. I have also seen a tendency for women to leave their chuches. I do not know why. I only have hints. One problem I see is that Protestant denominations have been too slow in recognizing issues important to women. If there is a strategy to change religion before it passes into the past, it must be specific concerning what changes need to be made. I admit to some frustration on this. I have been a bit discouraged at the generality of discourse and what I see as a lack of focus.

Drawing from personal experience, I can tell you this. Several years ago a woman I know quite well was experiencing rather severe psychological difficulties. How these came about is a long and sad story. Attempts to treat her problems through the usual mediical protocalls failed. Eventually, she sought refuge in rites and rituals familar to her. Her path was guided by a group of Buddihist monks. I assume they knew what they were doing as they come from a shared background of adapting to trauma. Today, my friend is functioning very well and enjoying life again. That is enough.

In regards to the first article, I also found that it seemed more about fear of being "caught out" when cheating. That said, I thiink this would make an excellent subject for the Debates and Dialgue forum. I say this because my own life experience with one foot in Eastern views of the supernatural has not been dominated by fear of retribution. Rather, the concept of Divine guidance is most important. Granted, I am not an expert on the subject but in 40 some years I have seldom heard references to fear as the sole principle of the supernatural in Eastern thought.

If there is interest, perhaps this could be pursued. I'd be interested in ideas concerning the evolution of our perception of God over time, etc.

If my survival is, at least in part, linked to the tribe then I must be aware of that link and honor it. If I do not survive I have no opportunity for any altruistic behavior, either inside or beyond the tribe.

Here is good example of how things work in the world today. Mind you, this is NOT a conservative speaking, but Sandra Fluke responding to conservative attacks.

"Yet, we're not entirely altruistic either. By fighting to protect our nation's social safety net, we ensure that all members of society have a chance to contribute, producing a diversity of ideas that benefits society as a whole. We've seen that affordable access to contraception allows women to contribute their talents to our companies, and the same is true of the host of economic supports under attack. Without President Obama's investment in Pell Grants, over three million additional students (nearly ten million total) might not have been able to afford to attend college last year. The majority of Pell Grant recipients are students of color from economically depressed backgrounds, so we know exactly which perspectives and voices the rest of us would be deprived of."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sandra-fluke/sandra-fluke-joe-walsh_b_1876782.html

Myron

Tribalism is also related to management of scarce resources (Valent, 2007). If resources are scarce, the tribe has two options for survival. Acquire resources from outside the tribe or create new resources within the tribe. Just think about what is going on with the world supply of oil and you have it in a nurshell.

George,

After reading Haidt and others in the field of social justice, it seems that one of their major concerns is easily overlooked. Human behavior is often based on multiple motives. When I donate time or money I know that, if I am honest, I sense several motives in rapid sequence. This evolved from reading Jung and Whitehead. This group of thinkers, including Haidt, has been reluctant to degrade a function to promote a single perspective. Evolution moves too slowly to ignore tribalism. The solution is to find ways to teach our children how to respect and understand their emotions and intuitions, not deny them.

To borrow from another thread. What percentage of the world's population has had the opportunity to learn critical thinking skills? I have heard sermons and lectures in Progressive Churches that place a heavy emphasis on universal access to education as a form of pragmatic altruism. Something like the Heifer Project. Donate cows, chickens and education. Enable someone else to become self reliant.

Myron

Is it the assumption here that no tribe ever comes to the assistance of another tribe?

Altruism is a complex subject. If I understand George correctly, we are talking about a form of altruism with a foundation in care, empathy and compassion. The critcal component in atruism is action. The Bible focuses heavily on the call to feed the poor. For those who are not well off, food, clothing and shelter are scarce (or threatened) resources. The lack or scarcity of essential resources is a threat to survival in this world. If your goal is to reach a blissful afterlife, your behavior will differ from one who believes the Kingdom of God in the here-and-now.

In addition, a glitch sometimes occurs when "the poor" are seen as the out-group. Once that happens, a number of rationalizations are likely to take place, some of which become quite objectionable (from a PC perspective). My point is that many variables come into play. I could list many more.

Myron

I agree with George in that critical thinking is a learned skill. The target of critical thinking is the integrity of one's own knowledge base and subsequent improvements in decision making. In some sense, it could well be the case that critical thinking often leads one away from criticism of others.

Myron

I'm not sure what ancient arguments you may be referring to Myron. Is your view that Jesus' example has no reference in today's modern times? As you rightly point out, words in thr right time and place are effective actions, and Jesus would appear to know this. Am I missing something?

The ancient arguments I am talking about diverted attention away from the teachings of Jesus in favor of the status quo. Jesus did not talk about mind-body dualism. He did not talk about free will. He did not talk about Neo-Platonism. He did not talk about philosophy in general (to my knowledge). He talked about doing, he talked about caring. I do not think Jesus had a theology ... my opinion.

I grew up with the idea that "actions speak louder than words". However, words in the right time and place, are effective actions. It is time we get beyond 2,500 years of nit picking and get down reality. Sorry for being so blunt, but I think the times are urgent to move beyond ancient arguments.

Interesting challenge? What if you were faced with this?

"HONG KONG — Faced with tens of thousands of protesters contending that a Beijing-backed plan for “moral and national education” amounted to brainwashing and political indoctrination, Hong Kong’s chief executive backpedaled somewhat on Saturday and revoked a 2015 deadline for every school to start teaching the subject.

But the protesters were not mollified, demanding that the education plan be withdrawn entirely. Crowds of young people in black T-shirts continued to pour into the plaza and streets around the local government’s headquarters on Saturday evening after Leung Chun-ying, the chief executive, offered the compromise." (my bolding)

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/world/asia/amid-protest-hong-kong-backs-down-on-moral-education-plan.html?hp

Myron

I know this will get many comments, picking apart each word or sentence but I don't know exactly how to express my thoughts in this - and I feel strongly about it (obviously). I really do not care if anyone else agrees with me. For me, this is about my own integrity and being true to my own beliefs.

Before I finished reading your post, I thought of commenting on the concept of integrity. It is seldom discussed. One of the few who give the concept extensive consideration is the psychologist D. M. Schnarch. He states that integrity means saying "This is who I am, and this is what I believe. I do not expect you to believe as I do (Schnarch, 1992)." He adds that this is learned skill that is essential to self realization. In the end, it often leads to healthier relationships.

Yvonne, you are in good company. I would add that there are Progrressive Christian congregations that follow this same idea. They speak out clearly and sometime face bitter reactions. I have seen it, beeen in the midst of it.

Myron

(edit for spelling )

The distinction between private versus public fact dates back to Kant, and possibly to Spinoza. It is most clearly elaborated in Whitehead.

It seems not to me but i don't know that it is or is not morally correct but i do know that society in general certainly has and takes that responsibility or right to define regardless of whether one such as i, deems it morally correct or not.

I have friends and family in mainland China and Vietnam. While they pay lip service to the government, they freely state that they have no affinity whatsover with the policies of the government. In private, they crack jokes about 'party elites' running around looking like fools. They know that outward conformance and inward conformance are NOT the same thing.

Is it morally correct to define what people ought to do irrespective of their capacity to meet that defintion?

Instead of one tree and two birds, Genesis focuses on the human relationship to two trees, the tree of Knowledge and the tree of Life. I'm thinking the imagry is perhaps interchangeable.

So if one were to take the "tree" symbol in the Genesis Story and turn the symbol upside down, how would the story be changed? I'm thinking on it ... no idea where it wlll go!