minsocal

Anybody else see it like this?

 

Jerry,

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "sin" not having a place within progressive Christianity or that recognizing sin keeps us in spiritual infancy. I understand not wanting to talk about sin from the perspective taken by traditional Christianity. However, as I stated in my post, this is not what I mean.

 

I would argue that all spiritual traditions and paths offer some guidance that leads away from self-centeredness and toward God (or other) centeredness.

 

The only view that I can think of that would teach that there is no such thing as "sin" (selfishness, greed, ego) would be philosophies that teach that all the world is illusion and that we just need to realize it to wake up. In this scenario, no, there is no sin or evil. There is just God, experiencing. Is this where you are coming from? 

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Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth said "You see, religion is really a kind of second womb. It's designed to bring this extremely complicated thing, which is a human being, to maturity, which means to be self-motivating, self acting. But the idea of sin puts you in a servile condition throughout your life."

minsocal

Ahhh ... 30 minutes! Now I understand. I'm relatively new here too. Welcome !

I agree with Borg. DiSanto & Steele in Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance talk about Yin and Yang as being an "egalitatian dualism". They then add that this is in many ways similar to the Gestalt principle of figure-ground. Both are necessary and, with practice, one should be able to switch from one to the other. The philosopher John Searle makes this concept part of his theory of general consciousness, implying that all dualisms are in a sense an illusion. C. G. Jung reached a similar conclusion, stating that spirit and life are "two sides to the same coin" and, in the end, might turn out to "be one and the same thing." For Jung, all dualisms are complementary.

minsocal

Speaking from my own experience as a gay male and UCC member I can say that Progressive Christians can, and often do, "walk their talk" when it comes to this issue of accepting and welcoming diversity in their communities. The church I attend has been "open and affirming" for about 12 years and has openly gay, lesbian, and transgender members. It is sometimes difficult to put this experience into words, but I will offer a few observations.

First, I initially selected this church because of it's "OA" status. Any doubts I had were dispelled within minutes of walking into my first worship service and I became an active member four weeks later. Second, in this particular congregation, my status as a gay person has never made me self-conscious of my so-called status as a minority. The feeling of openess is almost as natural as breathing. Of course, experiences vary from congregation to congregation and all that I am saying here is that Progressive Christians certainly have the potential and the will to make the celebration of diversity a concrete reality.

As to the movie ... it's a remarkable artistic achievement that transcends the "gay issue" ... well, that's my opinion anyway.

minsocal

Sorry for the multple postings. I intended to edit the previous one but the option was somehow not available.

I agree that we should not dependent on God. I think that the model of a well functioning adult relationship is helpful. The emphasis would then be on mutuality rather than dependence. This implies a complemetary relationship of autonomy and connectedness in the absense of tyranny. The "door metaphor" works well in this respect. I'm thinking of the kind of door on hinges that work in both directions and without locks. The door remains a boundary that functions out of respect and not brute force.

minsocal

I'm wondering if the "door slammed in your face" might be a useful metaphor. I let my imagination wander on this and up came the question "Which door slammed?" Perhaps there are many doors. For me, I get the feeling that the door labeled "rational" closes quickly these days. I think I wore out the hinges. Lately things have gone smoother when I open the doors labeled "intuition" and "feeling". How many other doors are there? I have no idea.

minsocal

Gee, what's an "average" UCC church  anyways???

:-)

 

--des

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Agreed. That was my point. It seems that there is a wide range of perspectives within denominations and that finding a good fit can indeed be frustrating.

I spoke in my original post about having to 'dismantle' much of the dogma of those earlier years...and I asked' what do we use for a 'replacement'? What have you all used in your own spiritual journey as replacements?

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What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there?

 

I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science.

 

I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband.

 

All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time.

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In the category of "for what's it's worth" ... I isolated myself "for a long long time" (35 years) from church participation. I re-discovered a part of myself on returning. I was unsure at first, being an intuiting - introvert ... but it has slowly worked out for me

I am from Orange County California (fourth most conservative in the country). I began my search at the United Church of Christ website:

 

http://www.ucc.org/index1.php

 

I found what I was looking for at the first church I visited and have been a member there for three years.

 

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I live in Canada and, after upbringing in the Roman Catholic Church, abandoned religion for many years until returning nearly five years ago. I knew from the get-go RC wasn't gonna work (boring services attended mostly by people who go out of guilt) and ended up going to a seeker-oriented new church for several years until switching to my new wife's Baptist (not southern) congregation. It's not really up my alley, but she's been a member there for 20 years and the relationships made there are important to her.

 

My point? I'm a progressive Christian and would rather attend a church where following Christ is actually meaningful in people's lives. I could attend a United church, which is much closer to my spiritual path, but find most liberal churches become social clubs attended by people who don't much care about their spiritual walk. Yuch. Lukewarm liberals are a major turnoff for me.

 

Can anyone tell me why so many liberal Christians become so lukewarm?

 

Frank King

Whitby, Ontario

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I quess I should say that the UCC church I found happened to be led by Pastor Fred Plummer who recently retired and will become president of TCPC in January ... not quite the average UCC.

How odd. While on vacation recently I decided to re-read some of my Anne Rice novels and had this feeling that she was expressing a progressive tendency! This impression was mainly based on her 1994 novel Taltos.

Lot's of good commentary here. I would add that acceptance of uncertainty (tolerance of ambiguity) is frequently considered a positive attribute of individual, moral, and spiritual development. Some have gone so far as to claim that variations of all major religions have stressed this point for at least several thousand years (sometimes referred to as type "B" religious sects). Unfortunately, these seem to have always been a minority.

Yet another introverted - intuitive:

Your Type is INFJ

Introverted Intuitive Feeling Judging

Strength of the preferences %

89 75 50 1

However, the MB is not consistent with Jung's original theory ... it seems to be a blend of Jung and Hans Eysenk ?

The philospher/ historian Michael Foucault wrote:

"I like discussions, and when I am asked questions, I try to answer them. It’s true that I don’t like to get involved in polemics. If I open a book and see that the author is accusing an adversary of “infantile leftism” I shut it again right away. That’s not my way of doing things; I don’t belong to the world of people who do things that way. I insist on this difference as something essential: a whole morality is at stake, the one that concerns the search for truth and the relation to the other (Rabinow, 1997)." (italics added)

Yet, as Christians we must speak out against injustice, but how?

"The person who stands firm does not have to be 'right' to be of benefit to the group ... [one] is not attempting to influence or change others, but simply stating, 'this is who I am; this is what I believe' (Kerr & Bowen)."

I am from Orange County California (fourth most conservative in the country). I began my search at the United Church of Christ website:

http://www.ucc.org/index1.php

I found what I was looking for at the first church I visited and have been a member there for three years.

I forgot to tell you how welcome you are here. I trust that you will have as good a time as the rest of us writing nuts are having. Wonderful therapy for life in a world that gets a little crazier each day.

 

Again, welcome !

 

Oh. I found Pierre in Wiki and it turns out he was one of the founders of modern psychotherapy. But he's French so not as well known as that Austrian dude. Janet's Disease is also named after him. We know it as obsessive-compulsive disorder. Really a genius !

 

flow.... 

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Thanks for the kind welcome!

Most of what I know about Janet is from The Disovery of the Unconscious by Henri Ellenberger. C. G. Jung frequently cited Janet's work (he attended Janet's lectures for a semster in 1906). Jung and Janet were both highly independent thinkers. I am of the opinion that Jung is, in part, postmodern. Jung made no secret of his distrust for "isms" as "one-sided attitudes" that distort our ability to grasp reality.

minsocal ...

Hmmmm ... no really strong association.

Moltmann - 53%

Paul Tillich - 47%

"Progressive Spirituality" has a history. The following is a summary of what Pierre Janet wrote in 1926. It is from The Discovery of the Unconscious, (Ellenberger, 1970):

What Janet calls "progressive tendencies" is the highest development of individual and original conduct. On this level man achieves his own unique individuality, but he also recognizes the fullest individuality of each one of his fellow men, establishing with them a relationship of spiritual intimacy. The search for individuality extends also to events, notably to historical ones. Janet arrives here at one of his favorite speculations, which he expresses in veiled terms: "We grow in time like plants in space." This means that the evolution of man, even of man as a biological entity, is open toward the future. In that regard, Janet seems to agree with certain thoughts expressed by Bergson in his Creative Evolution. "Evolution," he concludes, "is not finished, and human action has been and will be a source of marvel."

Hi all,

I'm a member of a Progressive IUCC church in Orange County California ...

Emergent/Postmodern - 79%

Classical Liberal - 68%

Modern Liberal - 64%

The label "postmodern" bothered me at first, but I admit it makes sense IF it

means "critical" as in critical thinking and NOT "critical" as in putting down.