jerryb

Well friends....guess I'm really a mixed up guy. I scored 100% Classic Liberal,and 100% Emergent/Post modern. Oh well,it was fun anyway. Maybe now that you know my mixed-up spiritual status, you'll continue to be patient with my rantings. Thanks for allowing me to be a part of this awesome board. Blessings, Jerry

gain...thank you, Blessings Jerry

Cynthia, Excellent post! I especially like what you said about 'not tuning in'. I am still working on that myself. And you are also right about 'the wonder that there is ever anything but static'. Slowly,but surely I am learning to 'get quiet' and listen. Thanks for reminding me to do that. Blessings Jerry

Hi Flow, I love that portion of your reply that says" I will ALWAYS be accepted as a significant,yet tiny,portion of a greater whole that is God's essence". I don't mind being tiny....but I do weant to be significant. And that beautiful word 'essence'....which the dictionary defines as "a substance distilled or extracted from another substance(God). Maybe that's really all christianity was meant to be from the beginning....we are the distilled,extracted presence of God in this world. I can live with that! Blessings to you my friend, Jerry

Aletheia. I like what you said.."I'd say I love God because I can't help it". I wish I could say that too....but the thing that haunts me is, I do have a choice...I don't have to love God....but oh,I so WANT to. I feel a bit like Yancey when he wrote,"For long stretches...achingly long stretches, I have sat with my headphones on,desperate for some message from the other world...yearning for reassuring contact,and heard ONLY STATIC." So what do I do when I hear only static? Blessings Jerry

Aletheia....I love the two 'key words' in your statement...CHANGES and PROMPTS. I really believe that you have captured the 'minimum essence' of the christian life. Change MUST happen...and when it does truly happen..the prompt becomes natural. Thanks for your excellant post. Blessings Jerry

What would the latest model of authentic christian spirituality look like? Could you describe it if asked?

When I read the Eight Points I see answers to questions I've had all my life. But that's not to say that we don't continue to love the questions. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Mystictrek, I like what you said about "continuing to love the questions"...I think that is really our only hope for progress along our spiritual paths. And I believe,that we ought to strive to always have more questions than answers. I read somewhere recently...."We can't really tell others about what we BELIEVE...only what we have EXPERIENCED". Anything we say beyond our experience, is only "preaching". Is that too strong a statement of faith? What do you think? Blessings to you, Jerry

Good post Des...."emphasizing God's love and works in the world"...you can't get more progressive than that! If only the 'religious' world could get that picture. Blessings Jerryb

I definitely respect how frustrating that can be, especially being the "minority report." I appreciate that you continue to come back anyway. Putting myself in your shoes, I'm not sure how long I'd put myself through it! On a side note, I do appreciate the challenge that you and our other more conservative brothers and sisters put on us to take the Bible's message with utmost seriousness. I agree that some progressive Christians do twist scripture and history to make it say just about anything they like -- indeed, many out there would accuse me of precisely that. Personally, I do everything in my power -- with the help of the Spirit, I trust -- to not let my interpretation of scripture be driven by what I like, or what I want, but by what in all earnestness I believe it communicates to us. Some of what I believe the gospel to be about, truth be told, I really don't like or want that much at all, at least a whole lot of me doesn't. It calls me to such a degree of examination, purification, and transformation -- both of myself and of the world around me -- that the current state of my heart is embarrassing by contrast. In the biblical story of the passion, for example, I see an allegory of the path I must take to the Cross, to renounce my limited self, by God's grace, and all the battles that entails. None of this particularly excites me! But I believe it, and stand by it. Hopefully this is still somewhat on-topic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Fred.....I was deeply moved by your post today. Especially the part where you said"the gospel......calls me to such a degree of examination,purification, and transformation...that the current state of my heart is embarrassing by contrast". I share your feelings in this respect....and the phrase 'the CURRENT state of my heart', ah...there's the rub....what exactly IS the current state of my heart? Sometimes I feel like old King Belshazzar in the old testament.."Weighed in the balance,and found wanting". Thank you for bringing us back to keeping 'the Main thing..the main thing. Blessings, Jerryb

Hi sgb, Welcome and greetings, I too began my spiritual journey again about 5 years ago, after a 10 year absence. I can relate to the challenges you are facing regarding the conservative bent of most broadcasting. That's why I'm enjoying this board so much...it gives me a chance to re-connect in a non-threatening atomosphere. I find myself reading everything I can get my hands on about progressive religion. On this board...I am able to ask some of the hard questions without fear of being ridiculed by others. So again...welcome,and enjoy the ride! Blessings Jerryb

"Be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart, and try to love the questions themselves...LIVE THE QUESTIONS NOW. Perhaps you will gradually...without noticing it,live along some distant day into the answer". Rainer Maria Rilke Do we present our soul as an empty container...or would we rather be teacher than student? I worry that I shy away from vulnerability of soul, just when I need it most. Maybe we need to be more vulnerable to each other on this board...so that as student/teachers,we may learn from each other. What do you think? Looking forward to your thoughts, Jerryb

Fred....How can you say that the Catholic Church is not man-made? And if you believe that it was "perfectly guided"into it's present form, you must believe that the bible is literally true and infallable. Of course you have a perfect right to believe that,but from reading some of your other posts, I wouldn't take you for a literalist. I wonder if you've read the book,"THe Dark Side Of Christianity"? It was a real eye-opener for me. Looking forward to your further thoughts. Jerryb

Hi Flowperson I enjoyed your post about Smith's book,"The Wolrd's Religions". I've never seen the book, but I am going to look for it since you said how instrumental it was in helping you begin your "real" spiritual journey. Over the past three or four years, I too have begun what I would call my "real" spiritual journey. And sometimes...even now,it's a bit frightening to me. Mainly because some little voice in the back of my mind sometimes says..."look what you've given up to get here". But then a much louder, saner voice says,"Yes...but look what you gained by giving up your fear of God that the church so often taught you". And I guess that's where I am now...still learning...still fasinated by God..and sooo enjoying the 'freedom from fear' that my present spiritual walk gives me. Thanks for sharing with us about your journey...I'd would be interested in hearing more about how you came to where you are now spiritually. Blessings to you, Jerry

Hi Aletheia, The thing that struck me most was the quote..."The cost to us personally should count for nothing." Boy...is that hard to admit...and yet so important for us to learn. We/I are always trying to 'measure' what effect, if any, our lives and words are having on others. But I believe Smith is saying, "just do it...and don't worry about any kind of reward. After reading that line...I feel like praying,"God...help me to step out of the way". I think that the ONLY way anyone will see God's love in action is through we feeble,fallable human beings. God help us! Thanks for sharing this with us. Blessings Jerry

Hi James....very good point that you make here. Maybe I'm just looking for a better word to define a personal experience of God. But the only answer I can muster to your question"What makes spirituality superior to religion" is...one definition of religion in the dictionary is"the service and worship of God". I believe that you could serve and worship God.in the physical sense, without ever reaching the definition of spirituality defined as "relating to or AFFECTING the spirit". But like I said...I'm reaching here.....can you help me with this? Blessings Jerry <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not sure if I can help because I fundamentally disagree with your a priori position, as best as I can see it. It seems to me that you are assuming that a a traditional religious experience necessarily is less affective spiritually and that the relationship with God is on a lower plane. You haven't offered any reasons or proof why this would be so. To me it seems quite elitist as it assumes that most fo humanity has and continues to order thier lives according to religious faiths which, in this thread, have been dismissed by some as "canned mass-membership mentality". That was why I asked how and why what you are advocating, or seem to be advocating (a personalised, I-made-it-my-way-faith) would be superior to traditional religious experience. After all, for any faith to survive for several millenia, there must have been something that was satsifying to the people who practised it. And in terms of traditional Christianity, there must be some reason that it was so attractive to so many people from so many cultures in so many times. But you did ask for my definition of "spirituality". If it wasn't made clear in my earlier remarks I have little respect for people who think they can create their own religious faith. There are two reasons for this, firstly the elitism involved and secondly the way that they deny Truth and almost always advocate some form of relativism. I believe in Truth. I believe that God is a perfect and unified Trinity of Three Persons (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). I believe that God has revealed Himself throughout history, first through the Covenant with the Jews and their descendants and finally through the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, His Passion, Death and Resurrection. He founded the Catholic Church on Saint Peter and the Apostles and instituted the Seven Sacraments. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the Liturgy fo the Hours, the Rosary, Eucharistic Adoration and other traditional religous experiences are full incredibly meaningful to me. And not because I'm some angry octagenarian who wishes the Church would just "turn things back", I'm 24 years old and a convert (recieved into the Church in 2001) This things are are open to debate (except my age and my conversion), a person can discuss how, why and whether these things are true. But what cannot be up for grabs is Truth itself and the ability of humans to know and to some degree proove it. It think the "spirituality" movement is dangerous to huamnity because it recasts us in the role of the playthings of the gods from pagan times, bits of whismy tossed about by powers we can never know or understand and fundamentally, meaningless. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi James, You asked,"Why you are advocating a personal I-did-it-my-way- faith as superior to traditional religious experience". I'm not really saying that,what I am saying is that ALL religions are man-made. And just because some of them have endured for years, doesn't necessarily mean that they are the most personally fulfilling . If it works for you...fine. But allow some of us to step out into unknown spiritual waters in search of a more meaningful faith for us personally. I respect and honor your opinion on this subject...and I will give additional thought to your post. Blessings Jerry

Hi James....very good point that you make here. Maybe I'm just looking for a better word to define a personal experience of God. But the only answer I can muster to your question"What makes spirituality superior to religion" is...one definition of religion in the dictionary is"the service and worship of God". I believe that you could serve and worship God.in the physical sense, without ever reaching the definition of spirituality defined as "relating to or AFFECTING the spirit". But like I said...I'm reaching here.....can you help me with this? Blessings Jerry

Wecome Neandergirl....great to have you here. Look forward to hearing how Thich Nhat Hanh helped bring you back to Christianity. It's amazing how many on this board have similar stoiries about their way back to a personal faith. It reminds me of what Wayne Dyer said in one of his tapes..."When the student is ready...the teacher will appear". I love that quote..it has been true in my own experience. Blessings to you, Jerrtb

Welcome Kendra....you're in for quite a ride. I've only been here about three weeks...and already...these great posters have me scratching my head. I love the fact that I feel 'challenged' here. This is a safe place,where you can ask any spiritual question that comes to mind...no matter how far-out it may seem. Try that in most main-stream churches! Blessings, Jerryb

Greetings Mystictrek, I share your belief that being still is the only essential discipline of the spiritual quest. Some great sage said..."Silence is the only voice of our God"..to that I say Amen! I look forward with great anticipation to your sharing of these books on PP. Blessing to you, Jerryb