jerryb

Good post Aletheia....Believe or not....coming home from work today...a Depak Chopra tape playing, and he is talking about the barrier between the soul and our 'virtual' self, and he made this statement..."The barrier is PAPER THIN". And all the way home, I'm thinking about that barrier, and you post about 'thin places'. Coincidence? I think not! Thank you, Jerry

Hi Mystictrek I too, like the definition of ' missing the mark'....but my next question is..Who sets the mark? Help me somebody! Jerry

Well, nobody suggested that a two day old baby was going to be punished for not being able to understand sin or accept a savior. Even the most conservative of Catholics and most fundamentalists believe in the notion of an "age of accountability." But in any case, knocking down a straw man doesn't prove anything. I had written more about this, but I decided not to go off topic any further. Plus we're not in the debate section. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The age of accuntability? Does anybody even know where that term came from? And who decides at what age that occurs? Sorry....but I've never bought that argument...even when I was a fundamentalist. Help me somebody! Jerry

I'm with you on this Flow. I don't believe in original sin either.Here's why...a new born baby is born...fresh from the hand of God....the baby dies two days later...with no chance to understand what sin is...that it needs to repent...or accept a Savior. Are we really going to even THINK about that baby being 'lost'? Not Me! Blessings, Jerry

Hi Cynthia. Yes, actually, "dark nights of the soul" was exactly what I thought of when I first read it. Deep pain and depression that brings about TRANSFORMATION (thanks Flow). As I read further along in the story and in the book, and as the author offered his take on the story, I realized it could be interpreted in a couple of ways. (Metaphors are tricky that way. ) I think the "bride" could represent anything or one that creates a desire to change. And yes, in the story, the object that forces change is an object of devotion and love. I might go so far as to say that the bride offered the dragon "grace." I also appreciated that it was painful for the dragon to peel away the layers. It wasn't an easy journey. Grace may give us the desire to change, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee smooth sailing. Jerry, I'm not sure what you mean by "sin" not having a place within progressive Christianity or that recognizing sin keeps us in spiritual infancy. I understand not wanting to talk about sin from the perspective taken by traditional Christianity. However, as I stated in my post, this is not what I mean. I would argue that all spiritual traditions and paths offer some guidance that leads away from self-centeredness and toward God (or other) centeredness. The only view that I can think of that would teach that there is no such thing as "sin" (selfishness, greed, ego) would be philosophies that teach that all the world is illusion and that we just need to realize it to wake up. In this scenario, no, there is no sin or evil. There is just God, experiencing. Is this where you are coming from? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Gosh...I don't know. But I don't think that's where I'm coming from. I guess I just had such a 'steady dose' of "I'm worthless and a poor lost sinner who deserves to go to hell",when I was a fundamentist ,that I'm hoping for a better way to express my desire for communion with God. And I guess what I'm trying to express is my belief that ,as Wayne Dyer wrote,"where you place your attention and maintain it"is what ultimately manifest itself in my life. I stand ready to learn from all the great souls I've found on this board. As you have said Aletheia,"Talk to me people"! Blessings to all my mentors, Jerry

I wonder.....does all this talk about 'sin'...original or actual,really fit well in a progressive christianity? Just wondering.....what are your thoughts about the the fact that we 'recognize' the existence of sin at all....does this very recognition keep us mired in spiritual infancy? Jerryb

Aletheia....I like what Kornfield says about "The silent inquiry of the heart". And I like what you said about the danger of being on "spiritual auto pilot". The only way I've found to keep that from happening in my own life, is to constantly be dissatisfied with my spiritual progress. Is that a bad attitude? What do you think? Good Post! Jerry

David....I like what you said in your post" They can't believe that their theology is so flawed that such growth is necessary...even for C.S.Lewis" We tend to put people like C.S. Lewis on a spiritual pedestal...thinking that somehow they are less spiritualy flawed than the rest of us. But you have helped us to see otherwise. Thank You. Jerryb

Hi Minsocal.....I like what you said about " the kind of door on hinges that work in both directions". The idea of a relationship of 'mutuality' is also very appropriate. That way, the thought of God pushing us with brute force disappears. And since this God of brute force was the God of my past fundamental faith,I am 'more than ready' for the mutuality kind of relationship with God. Thanks for your insightful post, Jerry

Wow! October....you really 'cut to the chase' in your reply. And I truly believe you are right. Maybe...in our effort to 'learning in lean' on the everlasting arms of God,as the old hymn says,we become 'comfortable' there ,and never arrive at the level of faith David speaks about in his post. Keep 'pushing' us October! Jerry

I've experienced despair, but never after I learned to turn to God. I'm sure how one turns to God matters. There's a lot written about that, but I don't know what's reliable about any of it. People write of "a dark night of the soul", but they write about so many things in that, depression, addiction, oppressive circumstances, a loss of faith or something else internally. So many people write like Lewis and use metaphors when it would be so much better to describe the reality of the situation, even if it is personal and embarassing. My brother-in-law became deeply depressed after the millenium. It was as if he was disappointed all the bad things his fundamentalist teachers were preaching turned out to be false alarms. At the same time, he's been deeply depressed before. Antidepressants didn't help him. All sorts of spiritual help did nothing. I had an intuition about a Bible verse for him once. That didn't help. Nothing helped until he was forced to have electroshock therapy. Then God came back. Was that God's fault? I doubt it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> David....I'm glad to hear you say that"I've never experienced despair after I learned to turn to God". It sounds like you have attained a more 'mature' faith than most of us. I salute you my friend. Godspeed David, Jerry

Hi Flow, I like what you said about God PUSHING us toward transcendence. I never thought about it from that perspective. There would have been a time, in my fundamental days, when I would have cringed in horror at the suggestion that God would EVER push us into anything. We always talked in those days about God 'leading' us. But I'm with you on this...I really believe that sometimes it takes just what you said.....a PUSH! Thanks for your thoughts Jerry

Thanks for the reminder Flow. Of course now....I'll have to hum the song all day tomorrow. It is a catchy tune,but now that you've explained the movie...I remember seeing at least a part of it, and it made a profound impact on me. Jerryb

Mow..... I can't tell you how many times I've found myself hummimg"Waltzing Matilda"...but I still don't know the rest of the song. I think I first heard it as the sound track of a TV movie...but I can't remember the name of the movie. BUT....I do remember the MELODY of the song. This proves the point we are talking about...we sometimes DO fall in love with the melody of the old hymns, without taking the time to study the bad theology. By the way...my wife has made a large part of her living as a church organist for the past 30 years. Thanks for your post. Jerryb

What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there? I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science. I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband. All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aletheia....I really relate to your post today. I too,read everything I can get my hands on in spiritual matters. And I especially like what you said about coming to "thin places". Boy...have I been in some "super thin" places lately! But..through it all, I believe God is slowly, pain-stakingly leading me out into a 'new spiritual atmosphere' where the air is rare and precious. And I truly understand what you said about missing the social part of christian worship. I am trying to visualize a concept of some kind of 'meeting',or get-to-gether,where I could share with those who are like-minded. But..we all live so far apart,that that seems almost impossible. However...about three years ago, my wife organized a meeting of her Weight Watcher pals at our home, with the empasis on something called Spiritual Pathways. The first year, six people came from all over the united states and spent the weekend. IT WAS PRICELESS! The second year...10 came....this year 12. This eclectic group is made up of Pagans....progreesive christians...and even a couple of fundementalists. You can talk about anything spiritual...only rule...noone can say"that can't be". The food has been fabulous...the friendships made priceless..and all of our spiritual lives have been broadened. I just wish it could happen monthly instead of yearly. Sorry...I ran on there. Doesn't take much to excite me. Blessings in your walk, Jerry <{POST_SNAPBACK}> OOPS! Sorry for the double post....technologiclyy challenged.

What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there? I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science. I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband. All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aletheia....I really relate to your post today. I too,read everything I can get my hands on in spiritual matters. And I especially like what you said about coming to "thin places". Boy...have I been in some "super thin" places lately! But..through it all, I believe God is slowly, pain-stakingly leading me out into a 'new spiritual atmosphere' where the air is rare and precious. And I truly understand what you said about missing the social part of christian worship. I am trying to visualize a concept of some kind of 'meeting',or get-to-gether,where I could share with those who are like-minded. But..we all live so far apart,that that seems almost impossible. However...about three years ago, my wife organized a meeting of her Weight Watcher pals at our home, with the empasis on something called Spiritual Pathways. The first year, six people came from all over the united states and spent the weekend. IT WAS PRICELESS! The second year...10 came....this year 12. This eclectic group is made up of Pagans....progreesive christians...and even a couple of fundementalists. You can talk about anything spiritual...only rule...noone can say"that can't be". The food has been fabulous...the friendships made priceless..and all of our spiritual lives have been broadened. I just wish it could happen monthly instead of yearly. Sorry...I ran on there. Doesn't take much to excite me. Blessings in your walk, Jerry

What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there? I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science. I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband. All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aletheia....I really relate to your post today. I too,read everything I can get my hands on in spiritual matters. And I especially like what you said about coming to "thin places". Boy...have I been in some "super thin" places lately! But..through it all, I believe God is slowly, pain-stakingly leading me out into a 'new spiritual atmosphere' where the air is rare and precious. And I truly understand what you said about missing the social part of christian worship. I am trying to visualize a concept of some kind of 'meeting',or get-to-gether,where I could share with those who are like-minded. But..we all live so far apart,that that seems almost impossible. However...about three years ago, my wife organized a meeting of her Weight Watcher pals at our home, with the empasis on something called Spiritual Pathways. The first year, six people came from all over the united states and spent the weekend. IT WAS PRICELESS! The second year...10 came....this year 12. This eclectic group is made up of Pagans....progreesive christians...and even a couple of fundementalists. You can talk about anything spiritual...only rule...noone can say"that can't be". The food has been fabulous...the friendships made priceless..and all of our spiritual lives have been broadened. I just wish it could happen monthly instead of yearly. Sorry...I ran on there. Doesn't take much to excite me. Blessings in your walk, Jerry

Good post David, Your quote "that's where empiricism has brought me" is certainly true in my life too. But...do we have anything better to fall back on? The dictionary says empiricism means" the practice of reyling on observation and experiment. I am truly coming to believe that 'experiencing' God is the safest, surest way to suceed in the spiritual life. Everything else is pure speculation and hearsay. After all..what 'qualifys' anyone else to tell us how we should experience and conceptualize God? Thanks for making me think a little harder. Blessings as you walk.... Jerry

Actually, it's the message of the songs (although there are exceptions) that I think are horrible. The music is horrible too, but I don't really care about the melody as much as I do the message. JW's could take all the same words and put them to incredibly wonderful contemporary music, and I'd still think they were horrible. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Beach and Alethia, I know where you're both coming from....and for my part,there is a certain sadness in my not being able able to sing the songs I heard so often in The Weslyan Methodist Church of my youth. I spoke in my original post about having to 'dismantle' much of the dogma of those earlier years...and I asked' what do we use for a 'replacement'? What have you all used in your own spiritual journey as replacements? Looking forward to your thoughts, Jerry

And, I would say that all this gives us the courage to follow their lead and demonstrate to others just what is possible through belief in the principles that they demonstrated. This leads to positive and progressive action that will carry faith into the future. flow.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Flow...I was struck by your statement about 'carrying faith into the future'. I wonder what might be possible with FUTURE FAITH? Could we finally take Jesus words" The things that I do,you will do...and GREATER things you will do". John 14:12 If we believe anything Jesus said...then we have to believe that statement. I know it's a bit hard to get our minds around, but I truly believe this is what FUTURE FAITH will look like. Boy...have we got a way to go! Blessings to you Flow' Jerry

Hi Fred.....I like what you said about our 'bottomless egos' I'm afraid I've been guilty of that a few times in my life....like 7 zillion times! Neal Walsh says.."Look around you...you like what you see?" My answer to him is No....I don't like what I see around me,or INSIDE me. That is why I'm commit4ed to doing a better job in soul work 101 this New Year. Thanks Fred Jerry

And...from Neale Walsch's book Tomorrow's God......"Humanity is about to create a new form of spirituality. This New Spirituality will allow humans to express their natural impulse toward the Divine without making one another wrong....and without killing one another in the name of it. When the New Spirituality is embraced by humanity, it will, of course, change everything. And that is exactly what is needed NOW."(capitals mine) Jerry