jerryb
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Posts posted by jerryb
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The idea of sin is not something we should easily dismiss. I like the original definition of sin in the Greek -- hamartia -- it is simply missing the mark ( an archery term). Sin is falling short of the glory of God. We all do that. It helps to acknowledge that. But not if it is designed to make us feel unworthy, ashamed, guilty, no-good, helpless, unpardonable, etc.
Original sin is simply the reality that human beings are born with a predisposition to hurt ourselves and others. Before that comes the Original blessing which means we are born with a predisposition to help ourselves and others. I belive the OB is far more powerful than the OS.
Hi Mystictrek
I too, like the definition of ' missing the mark'....but my next question is..Who sets the mark?
Help me somebody!
Jerry
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...a new born baby is born...fresh from the hand of God....the baby dies two days later...with no chance to understand what sin is...that it needs to repent...or accept a Savior. Are we really going to even THINK about that baby being 'lost'? Not Me!
Well, nobody suggested that a two day old baby was going to be punished for not being able to understand sin or accept a savior. Even the most conservative of Catholics and most fundamentalists believe in the notion of an "age of accountability." But in any case, knocking down a straw man doesn't prove anything.
I had written more about this, but I decided not to go off topic any further.
Plus we're not in the debate section. 
The age of accuntability? Does anybody even know where that term came from? And who decides at what age that occurs? Sorry....but I've never bought that argument...even when I was a fundamentalist.
Help me somebody!
Jerry
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This discussion reminds me somehow of the Lutheran and Roman Catholic Churchs' agreement some years ago to recognize both "good works" and "grace" as the primary goals of a Christian's life orientations.
For centuries there was conflict because one believed exclusively in Grace and the other in Good Works; it escapes me at present which advocated which. It fueled bitter animosities over the centuries.
In my way of thinking living one's life each day as an believer would be impossible without both concepts. But realistically there are always others who would look at us and judge our activities in an unfair way (in our view) and say that we were sinners. My belief is that missing the mark or sinning, like beauty, is always a matter that is in the eye of the beholder.
And I for one do not believe in a concept of original sin or the "fall". That's all just another good myth as far as I am concerned.
Or perhaps just a good, ancient metaphor to restrain exhuberant behaviors within the community. Or as Ben used to say, in all things...moderation. But then again, he was also a renowned womanizer and boozehound.
flow....
I'm with you on this Flow. I don't believe in original sin either.Here's why...a new born baby is born...fresh from the hand of God....the baby dies two days later...with no chance to understand what sin is...that it needs to repent...or accept a Savior. Are we really going to even THINK about that baby being 'lost'? Not Me!
Blessings,
Jerry
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Great parable AR - hadn't seen this one before. I was struck most by the idea that it hurt to shed the dragon layers but then there are sparkling eyes and a release from a spell.... I guess it makes me think of "dark nights of the soul" and false selves. It is painful to look deep within and to change but as your skin becomes softer (less ego separating you from all else???) you become free....
Anybody else see it like this?
Jerry - I don't know that sin conceptualized has anything to do with stages of spirituality. The "you did something bad and have to be punished" version perhaps... I see sin as things I do that push me away from God. They tend to be small, ego-driven things; choosing a good thing over the best thing; putting worldly or selfish concerns ahead of eternal things. Make any sense????
Hi Cynthia.
Yes, actually, "dark nights of the soul" was exactly what I thought of when I first read it. Deep pain and depression that brings about TRANSFORMATION (thanks Flow).
As I read further along in the story and in the book, and as the author offered his take on the story, I realized it could be interpreted in a couple of ways. (Metaphors are tricky that way.
)I think the "bride" could represent anything or one that creates a desire to change. And yes, in the story, the object that forces change is an object of devotion and love. I might go so far as to say that the bride offered the dragon "grace." I also appreciated that it was painful for the dragon to peel away the layers. It wasn't an easy journey. Grace may give us the desire to change, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee smooth sailing.
Jerry,
I'm not sure what you mean by "sin" not having a place within progressive Christianity or that recognizing sin keeps us in spiritual infancy. I understand not wanting to talk about sin from the perspective taken by traditional Christianity. However, as I stated in my post, this is not what I mean.
I would argue that all spiritual traditions and paths offer some guidance that leads away from self-centeredness and toward God (or other) centeredness.
The only view that I can think of that would teach that there is no such thing as "sin" (selfishness, greed, ego) would be philosophies that teach that all the world is illusion and that we just need to realize it to wake up. In this scenario, no, there is no sin or evil. There is just God, experiencing. Is this where you are coming from?
Gosh...I don't know. But I don't think that's where I'm coming from. I guess I just had such a 'steady dose' of "I'm worthless and a poor lost sinner who deserves to go to hell",when I was a fundamentist ,that I'm hoping for a better way to express my desire for communion with God. And I guess what I'm trying to express is my belief that ,as Wayne Dyer wrote,"where you place your attention and maintain it"is what ultimately manifest itself in my life.
I stand ready to learn from all the great souls I've found on this board. As you have said Aletheia,"Talk to me people"!
Blessings to all my mentors,
Jerry
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What inspired me to start this thread in the first place, was thinking about mankind's being "fallen." It's been my experience that most progressive Christians don't "believe" in original sin or the fall as traditionally taught by the Church, and so, the whole idea of living in a "fallen" state is ignored.
The ideas I hoped to explore in this thread were, in my mind, meant to be pragmatic, grounded in the world we see in front of our eyes. I didn't intend this thread to become overly "metaphysical" or "transcendent" in it's content. (However, that said, if that's the way the thread ends up going, I don't have a problem with it.)
Anyway, as I've been reading over the past couple of months (Scott Peck, Keith Ward, Huston Smith), I've come to appreciate a different interpretation of the fall, one which I've been able to get my head around. Ironically, it's not necessarily a "progressive Christian" view. It is somewhat orthodox. The difference, really, is it comes from viewing the Genesis account as parable (metaphor?) rather than literal history.
The following is a little longer than it probably should be, but not as long as it could have been.
"We are created by a God who has designed the universe so that we can grow to maturity in freedom, be responsible for one another, and learn to understand and appreciate the wisdom and beauty of the universe.
It is that freedom, however, which has been misused. Sin is a turning away from the call of love towards egoistic desire. We fall into hating and fearing others, because we are not prepared to value them for what they are, and seek their good as much as we seek our own.
We become trapped in our search for personal pleasure, so that we cease to think of others at all, and come to see them just as means to our own gratification. That is the 'fall into sin' which Christians see as marking the whole of human existence. The desire for personal gratification causes us to stop seeing others as persons, and just regard them as things.
Human persons are meant to become channels of divine creativity, wisdom, compassion and loving kindness. But that means that people must freely center themselves on God and God's will, and not on themselves and their own desires.
Actual sins are the selfish choices we continually seem to make. But Christians talk of 'Original Sin', as the state into which we are born, which makes actual sin ... almost inevitable.
Over thousands of generations, so many human beings have made selfish choices that human society has been corrupted. We are all now born into society where greed and egoism is encouraged by the structures of society, and where the sense of God has been so repressed that it has almost been lost altogether."
So, here I am, being contemplative, wondering what I can do to more fully "center myself on God." What can I do to move from being "self-centered" to "God-centered" and "other-centered"?
I visit other bulletin boards, not all of them Christian, and I'm impressed by the importance that PRACTICE is given in so many religions. I just don't see much of it in Christianity, outside of Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Why is that?
I wonder.....does all this talk about 'sin'...original or actual,really fit well in a progressive christianity? Just wondering.....what are your thoughts about the
the fact that we 'recognize' the existence of sin at all....does this very recognition keep us mired in spiritual infancy?
Jerryb
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I've always had a bad taste in my mouth towards renunciation and ascetism. It seemed to me that the attitude of renunciation was man's pronouncing as evil and tainted, what God had pronounced as "very good." My days as a neo-pagan with it's "hug a tree" mentality furthered this idea in my head.
It's is fair to say that some groups practice renunciation because they DO see this world and the human body as evil, to be crushed and to be overcome. I still don't agree with this premise. I don't see this world or humanity as evil (which isn't to be confused with being "fallen").
However, I've come to realize that not all groups that practice renunciation do so with the premise that the body is evil, in need of punishment. In this view, renunciation is more of a "spiritual house cleaning." It is also a way to wake ourselves up, to move ourselves out of the rut of being on auto-pilot.
To quote Jack Kornfield:
"We live in disordered times, complicated, distracted and demanding, yet to sustain a spiritual practice demands our steady attention. The first task, then, in almost any spiritual voyage, is to quiet ourselves enough to listen to the voices of our hearts, to listen to that which is beyond our daily affairs. Whether in prayer or meditation, in visualization, fasting or song, we need to step out of our usual roles, out of the busy days on automatic pilot. We need to find a way to become receptive and open.
Great spiritual traditions offer us a hundred good ways to do this. Some practices use the breath to quiet the mind and open the heart. There are meditative disciplines of the body that transcend the grasping of our small self, and lead us to openness. There are mantras and rituals of devotion, prayers and rosaries, daily practices of sacred attention; there is the silent inquiry of the heart."
What are your thoughts about renunciation, ascetism and discipline? Have you read any of the Desert Father's writings? Do you practice any form of renunciation daily or yearly (like at Lent and Advent)?
Talk to me people!
Aletheia....I like what Kornfield says about "The silent inquiry of the heart". And I like what you said about the danger of being on "spiritual auto pilot". The only way I've found to keep that from happening in my own life, is to constantly be
dissatisfied with my spiritual progress. Is that a bad attitude? What do you think?
Good Post!
Jerry
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In his commentary on the works of St. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila, Gerald May wrote about the experience of God no longer being in one’s prayers as He had been:
“As John makes clear, it is not God who disappears, but only our concepts, images, and sensations of God. This relinquishment occurs to rid us of our attachment to these idols and to make possible a realization of the true God, who cannot by grasped by any thought or feeling. At the time though, it seems like abandonment, even betrayal.” (Gerald G. May, The Dark Night Of The Soul, pp.146-147, 2004, HarperCollins)
Every serious illness is an opportunity for spiritual growth, even if it is completely physical. Can one’s usual experiences of God go away for purely physical reasons or is there always this motivation to rid us of idols as Dr. May writes? Either way it’s still an opportunity for spiritual growth.
Is it possible this happens many times unsuccessfully for every time that someone makes progress this way? Whether God does this or some automatic feature of spirituality is responsible, is there something that guarantees that this should work every time? Those who see God as being perfect and omnipotent in what He does can’t believe that He would offer spiritual growth to people in so many ways with so few takers. They can’t believe that their theology is so flawed that such growth is necessary, even for C. S. Lewis.
My brother-in-law wound up with the same faith after his worst depression as he had before. People cling to their faith whether it’s true or false, fundamentalist or progressive. Maybe that’s the best we can do in a single lifetime, not that we get another. Somebody gets another life, and there does appear to be spiritual evolution going on as well as biological and cultural evolution. Maybe in the future we’ll get to a more stable place. Maybe God knows that or has good reason to believe that, as opposed to people who have some anxiety about it as I do. Then again maybe God is a chain-smoking wreck wondering what He has to do to get more people to follow His clues away from their myths about Him, whether traditional or progressive. It might be a much more collective effort than what most people see.
David....I like what you said in your post" They can't believe that their theology is so flawed that such growth is necessary...even for C.S.Lewis"
We tend to put people like C.S. Lewis on a spiritual pedestal...thinking that somehow they are less spiritualy flawed than the rest of us. But you have helped us to see otherwise. Thank You.
Jerryb
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Sorry for the multple postings. I intended to edit the previous one but the option was somehow not available.
I agree that we should not dependent on God. I think that the model of a well functioning adult relationship is helpful. The emphasis would then be on mutuality rather than dependence. This implies a complemetary relationship of autonomy and connectedness in the absense of tyranny. The "door metaphor" works well in this respect. I'm thinking of the kind of door on hinges that work in both directions and without locks. The door remains a boundary that functions out of respect and not brute force.
minsocal
Hi Minsocal.....I like what you said about " the kind of door on hinges that work in both directions".
The idea of a relationship of 'mutuality' is also very appropriate. That way, the thought of God pushing us with brute force disappears.
And since this God of brute force was the God of my past fundamental faith,I am 'more than ready' for the mutuality kind of relationship with God.
Thanks for your insightful post,
Jerry
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I think we need to get away from the notion that God is all powerful/ all knowing. Time to leave behind childish thoughts.
Wow! October....you really 'cut to the chase' in your reply. And I truly believe you are right. Maybe...in our effort to 'learning in lean' on the everlasting arms of God,as the old hymn says,we become 'comfortable' there ,and never arrive at the level of faith David speaks about in his post.
Keep 'pushing' us October!
Jerry
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" Meanwhile,where is God? .. when your need is desperate,when all other help is vain and what do you find?
A door slammed in your face ... Is that Just?
Jerryb
I've experienced despair, but never after I learned to turn to God. I'm sure how one turns to God matters. There's a lot written about that, but I don't know what's reliable about any of it. People write of "a dark night of the soul", but they write about so many things in that, depression, addiction, oppressive circumstances, a loss of faith or something else internally. So many people write like Lewis and use metaphors when it would be so much better to describe the reality of the situation, even if it is personal and embarassing.
My brother-in-law became deeply depressed after the millenium. It was as if he was disappointed all the bad things his fundamentalist teachers were preaching turned out to be false alarms. At the same time, he's been deeply depressed before. Antidepressants didn't help him. All sorts of spiritual help did nothing. I had an intuition about a Bible verse for him once. That didn't help. Nothing helped until he was forced to have electroshock therapy. Then God came back.
Was that God's fault? I doubt it.
David....I'm glad to hear you say that"I've never experienced despair after I learned to turn to God". It sounds like you have attained a more 'mature' faith than most of us. I salute you my friend.
Godspeed David,
Jerry
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JB
My take on this is that G-d ALWAYS pushes human nature to transcend its current conditions in order to take this world of suffering into the next realm.
Victimhood, pain, suffering, legal process, retribution, and justice, are functional attributes of this world, not necessarily of the next set of spiritual realities.. Therefore door slamming and silence is sometimes necessary on G-d's part in order to evoke transcendant moments in each of our existences.
flow....
Hi Flow,
I like what you said about God PUSHING us toward transcendence. I never thought about it from that perspective. There would have been a time, in my
fundamental days, when I would have cringed in horror at the suggestion that God would EVER push us into anything. We always talked in those days about God
'leading' us. But I'm with you on this...I really believe that sometimes it takes just what you said.....a PUSH!
Thanks for your thoughts
Jerry
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" Meanwhile,where is God? When you are happy,so happy that you have no sense of needing Him...you will be welcomed with open arms. But...go to Him when your need is desperate,when all other help is vain and what do you find?
A door slammed in your face,and a sound of bolting and double bolting on the inside. AFTER THAT....SILENCE. You may as well turn away." C.S Lewis A grief
observed.
If this great champion of christianity felt that way LATE IN HIS LIFE...what are we to say about God being Just and fair? Ever had 'the door slammed in your face'...just when you needed Him most? Is that Just?
Jerryb
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JB
I believe that Waltzing Matilda was popularized in the 1950's movie On The Beach. It was sung by herdsmen in the outback and is a traditional Aussie song on the order of our Home on the Range, or maybe Red River Valley. I know what a few of the words mean but not all of them.
The movie starred Gregory Peck, Ava Gardner, Tony Perkins, and Fred Astair in a dramatic role that didn't require dancing. I believe that Astair won a supporting actor oscar for his role.
The story is based on a novel by, I believe Nevill Shute, and posits an end of the world scenario after the northern hemisphere destroys itself with nuclear weapons and the rest of life on earth is slowly snuffed out by spreading radioactive clouds. A wonderful book and movie, and I highly recommend both if you like being emotionally moved. The song was extensively used throughout the film as background music.
flow....
Thanks for the reminder Flow. Of course now....I'll have to hum the song all day tomorrow. It is a catchy tune,but now that you've explained the movie...I remember seeing at least a part of it, and it made a profound impact on me.
Jerryb
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As a church musician in the UMC for over 25 years, I thought I'd share my thoughts on falling in love with the melody more than the words. The composer Felix Mendelssohn once said that, for him, music conveys meaning far better than words in many cases. In the secular arena ,few of us know what Auld lang Syne means , but the music conveys images of things ending and going on to something new. The Australian song "Waltzing Matilda" is another example of a fun song to sing, but few people know what the heck they're singing about .
In the sacred arena the hymn "Come thou Fount of every blessing " is another example of a beloved melody, but the words are enigmatic for contemporary Christians. I still don't know whar "raising my Ebeneezer". means.
In a sunday school class I was in , when I was a child , one of the kids asked the teacher if we could sing that song about "Andy". The teacher said "Andy, what song is that" ? The student said" you know, "Andy walks with me Andy talks with me ....."
MOW
Mow..... I can't tell you how many times I've found myself hummimg"Waltzing Matilda"...but I still don't know the rest of the song. I think I first heard it as the
sound track of a TV movie...but I can't remember the name of the movie. BUT....I do remember the MELODY of the song. This proves the point we are talking about...we sometimes DO fall in love with the melody of the old hymns,
without taking the time to study the bad theology.
By the way...my wife has made a large part of her living as a church organist for the past 30 years.
Thanks for your post.
Jerryb
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I spoke in my original post about having to 'dismantle' much of the dogma of those earlier years...and I asked' what do we use for a 'replacement'? What have you all used in your own spiritual journey as replacements?
What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there?
I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science.
I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband.
All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time.
Aletheia....I really relate to your post today. I too,read everything I can get my hands on in spiritual matters. And I especially like what you said about coming to "thin places". Boy...have I been in some "super thin" places lately! But..through it all, I believe God is slowly, pain-stakingly leading me out into a 'new spiritual atmosphere' where the air is rare and precious.
And I truly understand what you said about missing the social part of christian worship. I am trying to visualize a concept of some kind of 'meeting',or get-to-gether,where I could share with those who are like-minded. But..we all live so far apart,that that seems almost impossible. However...about three years ago, my wife organized a meeting of her Weight Watcher pals at our home, with the empasis on something called Spiritual Pathways. The first year, six people came from all over the united states and spent the weekend. IT WAS PRICELESS!
The second year...10 came....this year 12. This eclectic group is made up of Pagans....progreesive christians...and even a couple of fundementalists. You can talk about anything spiritual...only rule...noone can say"that can't be". The food has been fabulous...the friendships made priceless..and all of our spiritual lives have been broadened. I just wish it could happen monthly instead of yearly.
Sorry...I ran on there. Doesn't take much to excite me.
Blessings in your walk,
Jerry
OOPS! Sorry for the double post....technologiclyy challenged.
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I spoke in my original post about having to 'dismantle' much of the dogma of those earlier years...and I asked' what do we use for a 'replacement'? What have you all used in your own spiritual journey as replacements?
What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there?
I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science.
I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband.
All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time.
Aletheia....I really relate to your post today. I too,read everything I can get my hands on in spiritual matters. And I especially like what you said about coming to "thin places". Boy...have I been in some "super thin" places lately! But..through it all, I believe God is slowly, pain-stakingly leading me out into a 'new spiritual atmosphere' where the air is rare and precious.
And I truly understand what you said about missing the social part of christian worship. I am trying to visualize a concept of some kind of 'meeting',or get-to-gether,where I could share with those who are like-minded. But..we all live so far apart,that that seems almost impossible. However...about three years ago, my wife organized a meeting of her Weight Watcher pals at our home, with the empasis on something called Spiritual Pathways. The first year, six people came from all over the united states and spent the weekend. IT WAS PRICELESS!
The second year...10 came....this year 12. This eclectic group is made up of Pagans....progreesive christians...and even a couple of fundementalists. You can talk about anything spiritual...only rule...noone can say"that can't be". The food has been fabulous...the friendships made priceless..and all of our spiritual lives have been broadened. I just wish it could happen monthly instead of yearly.
Sorry...I ran on there. Doesn't take much to excite me.
Blessings in your walk,
Jerry
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I spoke in my original post about having to 'dismantle' much of the dogma of those earlier years...and I asked' what do we use for a 'replacement'? What have you all used in your own spiritual journey as replacements?
What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there?
I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science.
I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband.
All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time.
Aletheia....I really relate to your post today. I too,read everything I can get my hands on in spiritual matters. And I especially like what you said about coming to "thin places". Boy...have I been in some "super thin" places lately! But..through it all, I believe God is slowly, pain-stakingly leading me out into a 'new spiritual atmosphere' where the air is rare and precious.
And I truly understand what you said about missing the social part of christian worship. I am trying to visualize a concept of some kind of 'meeting',or get-to-gether,where I could share with those who are like-minded. But..we all live so far apart,that that seems almost impossible. However...about three years ago, my wife organized a meeting of her Weight Watcher pals at our home, with the empasis on something called Spiritual Pathways. The first year, six people came from all over the united states and spent the weekend. IT WAS PRICELESS!
The second year...10 came....this year 12. This eclectic group is made up of Pagans....progreesive christians...and even a couple of fundementalists. You can talk about anything spiritual...only rule...noone can say"that can't be". The food has been fabulous...the friendships made priceless..and all of our spiritual lives have been broadened. I just wish it could happen monthly instead of yearly.
Sorry...I ran on there. Doesn't take much to excite me.
Blessings in your walk,
Jerry
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I've left a lot of my ideas on the thread I started, but I think there's one from many years listening to people talk about the physical principal of uncertainty that is near the crux of the problem.
People come to black-and-white thinking naturally. So when many become aware of uncertainty, they react nihilistically. Even some good physicists did that in response to Heisenberg's principle. Yet the reality of that is that such uncertainty is quite small. One can fly a spacecraft to Mars today with incredible accuracy knowing nothing of quantum mechanics or relativity. It just requires good computers, a good method of course correction for all the factors that knocks a craft off course, and an understanding of the science of the whole thing.
The uncertainty of spirituality is much worse. What is spirit? Who is God? What do I make of all these things people say about both? As with physical uncertainty, though, there is nothing about this that negates that there is one best way to go through a spiritual life. Uncertainty is manageable, as soon as one admits to it. Otherwise, course corrections just have people going in circles.
There is a point in this where I have felt tension with my fellow liberals. Does everyone go the way that's best for them? This is like something that conservatives say that everything is God's will. It takes pressure off you to do anything differently. Sometimes specific applications of these ideas look pretty ridiculous, though. I volunteer for a charity now. To say that all my clients are on the way that's best for them is ridiculous. They have sufferred much more than necessary to build character, to realize the evils and hypocrisy of a world that neglects them, and turn to God. People don't just go wrong by themselves, whether it's the materially needy or others who are materially well off and just spiritually needy.
That doesn't mean it's up to me to fix everyone, but it's impressed me that there are many ways to go off course in one's life. It's not uncertainty that does that as much as people are going the wrong way, and it's very hard to tell them that.
So what is the right way? I think it's the way the works, not just for me, but for everyone. Any of us can see our way and those of others. If we're honest, we can see what's wrong with both. If we're humble, we can get help with that. I've been impressed by my getting help from God, just praying to God. That led me to being a Christian again, a liberal, charismatic Christian. It's a lonely thing to be, but that's where empiricism has brought me. If there's a better way, I'll listen, until I know what's wrong with it. Is there something better than that?
Good post David,
Your quote "that's where empiricism has brought me" is certainly true in my life too. But...do we have anything better to fall back on? The dictionary says empiricism means" the practice of reyling on observation and experiment. I am truly coming to believe that 'experiencing' God is the safest, surest way to suceed in the spiritual life. Everything else is pure speculation and hearsay. After all..what 'qualifys' anyone else to tell us how we should experience and conceptualize God?
Thanks for making me think a little harder.
Blessings as you walk....
Jerry
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AletheiaRivers:
"I KNOW that I couldn't sing the songs at the Kingdom Hall. Yech! JW hymns are so, so, so ... horrible."
I agree whole heartedly! They are SO, terrible sounding! The only church that's music is worse is SDA! Followed by the Chrstyle Cathedral! They sound like a mixture of a watz from Mozart's day meets a Walt Disney tune from the 50's meets a Nazi war time march! The JW org is SO very affraid of contemporary sounding music!
Actually, it's the message of the songs (although there are exceptions) that I think are horrible. The music is horrible too, but I don't really care about the melody as much as I do the message. JW's could take all the same words and put them to incredibly wonderful contemporary music, and I'd still think they were horrible.
Beach and Alethia,
I know where you're both coming from....and for my part,there is a certain sadness in my not being able able to sing the songs I heard so often in The Weslyan Methodist Church of my youth.
I spoke in my original post about having to 'dismantle' much of the dogma of those earlier years...and I asked' what do we use for a 'replacement'? What have you all used in your own spiritual journey as replacements?
Looking forward to your thoughts,
Jerry
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"Faith is at it's weakest when it treats dogma as if it were an ancient fortress that must be defended at all costs". Jack Good...The Dishonest Church.
I shudder to think of what may already have been lost in our efforts to maintain the religious 'status quo'.
Jack Good goes on to say," Even while religious leaders have been insisting on trust-worthiness from others, they have been reluctant to speak the truth to their own people".
I would add, not only reluctant...but 'scared to death' to be truthful about what they REALLY learned in seminary.
Many of us on this board have have gone through an intense and painful time of questioning, dismantling, and reconstruction in our struggle to develop a sensible faith.
Even now, as I try to sing the old hymns I was brought up on...the bad theology almost takes away the melody of my song. And I find myself wondering...did I
really fall in love with the old hymns...or just their melody?
How about you? Can some of you share a bit about your similar struggles..so I won't feel like 'The Lone Ranger"?
Blessings in the New Year,
Jerry
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The Bible says "By their fruits ye shall know them." For me authentic faith is faith that leads you to act compassionately for social justice I view people like Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa, Jean Vanier and Ghandi as having an authentic faith. It is their faith, whether Christian our otherwise, that gves them the strength to lead exemplary lives. This is not to say that others, who are not so well known don't have authentic faith, but those who do know them can see the the fruits of their faith
And, I would say that all this gives us the courage to follow their lead and demonstrate to others just what is possible through belief in the principles that they demonstrated. This leads to positive and progressive action that will carry faith into the future.
flow....
Flow...I was struck by your statement about 'carrying faith into the future'. I wonder what might be possible with FUTURE FAITH? Could we finally take Jesus
words" The things that I do,you will do...and GREATER things you will do".
John 14:12
If we believe anything Jesus said...then we have to believe that statement. I know it's a bit hard to get our minds around, but I truly believe this is what FUTURE FAITH will look like. Boy...have we got a way to go!
Blessings to you Flow'
Jerry
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It's more than remotely possible -- I think doing our own individual soul work is exactly what removes the suffering in the world -- the subset of suffering that is caused by ego and power drives anyway. There is a direct correspondence between harmony in the soul and harmony in the world, as Plato argued so expertly long ago. (The exact details of his harmony in the state were somewhat rigid and elitist, but the observation can be appreciated nonetheless.) Changing policies and procedures in society doesn't accomplish a whit, if the individuals that comprise it are all still running around like big bottomless egos.
Hi Fred.....I like what you said about our 'bottomless egos' I'm afraid I've been guilty of that a few times in my life....like 7 zillion times!
Neal Walsh says.."Look around you...you like what you see?" My answer to him is No....I don't like what I see around me,or INSIDE me. That is why I'm commit4ed to doing a better job in soul work 101 this New Year.
Thanks Fred
Jerry
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Nietzsche said bluntly," His disciples will have to look more saved if I am to believe in their Savior."
Depak Chopra writes..."The purpose of the soul is to eliminate suffering." WOW!..
is that really possible? Is it even 'remotely' possible, that by doing our own 'individual' soul-work, we actually could remove suffering from this world of ours? What say you?
Jerryb
And...from Neale Walsch's book Tomorrow's God......"Humanity is about to create a new form of spirituality. This New Spirituality will allow humans to express their natural impulse toward the Divine without making one another wrong....and without killing one another in the name of it. When the New Spirituality is embraced by humanity, it will, of course, change everything. And that is exactly what is needed NOW."(capitals mine)
Jerry
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Nietzsche said bluntly," His disciples will have to look more saved if I am to believe in their Savior."
Depak Chopra writes..."The purpose of the soul is to eliminate suffering." WOW!..
is that really possible? Is it even 'remotely' possible, that by doing our own 'individual' soul-work, we actually could remove suffering from this world of ours? What say you?
Jerryb
Plus we're not in the debate section. 
"thin Places"
in Progressive Christianity
Posted
Good post Aletheia....Believe or not....coming home from work today...a Depak
Chopra tape playing, and he is talking about the barrier between the soul and our 'virtual' self, and he made this statement..."The barrier is PAPER THIN".
And all the way home, I'm thinking about that barrier, and you post about 'thin places'. Coincidence? I think not!
Thank you,
Jerry