jerryb
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Posts posted by jerryb
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Hi Everyone,
I just recently found Progressive Christianity and this site. While I currently identify more with agnostic beliefs, I found Progressive Chrisitanity very inspiring and reassuring. I now see that the reason I may have avoided forming strong religious beliefs in the past was because of the unacceptance and "better than you" attituted that I often saw accompaning Christianity. I am so glad to realize that this mentality doesn't have to accompany Christianity. However, I am going through a huge personal struggle and am asking you all for guidance.
Struggle: Two weeks ago my boyfriend of 2.5 years told me he was unsure if he could be with me anymore and see a future with me still because I have different religious beliefs then him. He said he had been struggling with these issues lately and he felt he wanted to restrengthen his realtionship with God. He continued to say that he wanted to "save" me and that the only way to heaven was through embracing Jesus Christ into my life. Additionally, he said the bible said it was wrong for two people to "be unequally yoked in faith" and a "believer to enter into a relationship with a non-believer."
Because we agree that we still love each other very much and still want to be together, we have decided to attempt to work through this together by searching for more understanding . Yet, I feel like he is retreating into his already established beliefs instead of exploring other Christian interpretations and beliefs. I tried to point out that some Christians view the bible as more of an interpretation of gods word istead of litterally. This was a concept that he didn't even know existed and is having a hard time swallowing. I hope that by helping show him that his Fundamentalist Christian beliefs aren't the only Christian beilefs I can open his eyes some and help him actually explore what he believes instead of what he is told he has to believe by his church and others around him.
Please, I need any help you can offer me. Could you suggest books that could help him or me. Or offer your take on the situation or even your interpretations of what the bible says about interfaith relationships and marriages.
Welcome Lars,
Believe or not...I've been there...and done that.
When I first began to 'step timidly'outside my then, fundamental faith,and explore some new horizions in my relationship with God, my wife was,to say the least, very
skeptical.
But over time,as we pledged to be patient with each other in this area of our lives,it all came BEAUTIFULLY together. Not only has she also stepped outside the narrow boundaries of fundamentalism, but she now has a daily post entitled Spiritual Pathways(notice the word pathways...many ways to GOd). And we have entertained groups of people from all over the U.S. in our home for two day spiritual retreats. It has been a fabulous blessing to both of us.
So I encourage you and your boyfriend to give each other the time to GROW TOGETHER spiritually.
Blessings To You My Friend
Jerry
p.s...if you want to talk by e-mail,it is Uplift7 @aol.com
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With my portentious return, the contenious conversations being. Ok not really contentious, but I am hoping for some fun.
Cynthia - How do you read the Ot and see God as having an ego? I'm not entirely sure where you are going with that.
Everyone - We worship God because it is right and just. This used to be a part fo the Holy Mass and still sort of is. In the Tridentine rite of the Holy Sacrifice, the Priest says "Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro." (Let us give thanks to the Lord our God." and the people respond "Dignum et justum est." (It is right and just). In the rite of Paul VI the Priest says "Let us give thanks to the Lord our God" the people respond "It is right to give Him thanks and praise"
If anything the fact that God bothers with us at all, sent His Son to save us, forgives our sins, fills us with grace and hears our praise shows that God is the opposite of ego. He is self-emptying and other-fulfilling not for His good, but for ours. Therefore, the only just and right response to someone who gives themselves entirely for your good, especially at the expense of themselves is to be thankful and to express your thanks and appreciation.
James,
Thanks for your post. I agree with some of your remarks,but not this one"We worship God because it is just and right".
How do we KNOW that it is just and right? Thankfulness and worship are not exactly the same thing. To answer my own question,however,I do believe that perhaps the truest kind of worship would be our expression of 'profound gratitude' to God for all our blessings. Of course,that begs another question...how about the person who is,at present, going through what they feel is 'hell on earth'...should they feel worshipful?
What are your thoughts on that premise?
Blessings to you James,
Jerryb
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JB
My experience and intuition tells me that while ideation and conception of artistic work often comes to the artist from other places or unidentifiable spiritual inspirations, there is still the execution of the work that is necessary.
One "feels" what is intended through the giving and receiving of the conception, and then is duty-bound to place the work in a form that is as pristine and revealing of that conception as possible. I cannot see how this process might be entered into with any motivation other than ego-driven desire to interpret the messages in as pure a form as possible, and to bring as high a level of technical skill as possible to the performance process, whether writing, art, drama, or music is involved.
It is the interpretive aspect that requires the application of energies that ego provides. That's the best I can do to describe the process from my experiences. It all is very hard work, the hardest I've ever done.
flow....
Great post Flow,
I really like the part where you said,"to interpret the messages in as pure a form as possible". Wouldn't it be great if we ,as spiritual people,would use that same
diligence to express God's love in this present world?
Thanks for reminding us Flow,
Jerryb
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Another haiku verse that once came to me out of the blue goes:
" It is better to dance in the light,
Than to stand rigid in the darkness. "
Looks like it fits in with our thoughts on this thread. Consider it a contribution from the spirit world because that's where it originally came from, even though I wrote it down along with 103 others. Let's see... that leaves 101 to go before you guys have them all.
Flow....
I remember Joseph Campbell talking about his encounter with a Japanese Zen master who said ... "we don't have a theology, we don't have an ideology ... we just dance".
minsocal
Minsocal....I like your post on this subject. And wouldn't it be great to have a theology and still dance?
Blessings,
Jerry
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It could be that there is some spillover here from the thread discussing "living in a matrix, and holographic projection".
Think of it as an "inside-outside" issue. If G-d is truly other and is wholly "outside" of our realities and experiences except for "mystical contacts", then Sh/He projects into our reality in some important ways from time to time where the boundaries are thin, and to those of us on the inside who are able to receive and interpret His/Her intents. I believe that's where art comes into the picture.
Since by experience we know that it requires ego to artistically and practically create our futures here, we surmise that G-d must, of necesssity, have ego in order to have started this reality and to have guided its development in time from the outside. If we are truly made in His/Her image and likeness, then we are of necessity a true reflection of the "outside" Creator, ego and all. This is where scalar holographic principles may come into play.
It relates to the fact that a grain of sand seen under magnification has the same fractal countours as do continental shorelines seen in satellite pictures, or why an electron miicroscopic image of the growth patterns of an oncogene ( cancer-causing cell) bear striking resemblances to the satellite photographs of earth's urban sprawls.
flow....
Hi Flow,
Do we know for sure that it ALWAYS requires ego to be artistic and creative? I don't yet know the answer to that question...but I'm intrigued by the possibility that there may be some examples of artistic creation without using ego.
Any more thoughts on this?
Jerry
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I truly believe,that one of humanity's problems is our need to project our human attributes onto God.
We, of course, have an ego that must be constantly stroked and praised to make us feel that we are of value.
But if God has no ego.....why would He need our worship?
What do you think?
Jerry
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AR & JB
Agreed.
I've always wondered why the serpent picked on Eve and not Adam. Any thoughts on why she was more susceptible to the hisssser's deceptions than the man? By the way, Paul Gaugin did a wonderful series of panels on the garden scenes. He seems to have been obsessed by the drama of this particular literary metaphor involving the first humans. He depicts the serpent as a smallish, flying, red dragon and not as a snake in the tree.
I don't know why I am moved to do certain things as I do. All I know is that my feelings tell me when the choices I make are right for my future and the futures of those I care for. And likewise, if I lie to myself about the choices I make in the moment, I always end up regretting those turns in my life.
It is a never-ending process of self-reflection, memory, and evaluation that collectively educates us about how to live life beneficially for ourselves and others. If that's life in the "matrix", and if that's how G-d set-up our holographic and fractalized realities, then so be it. It is real.
BTW, I really like the way sh/he set-up our senses to multitask. Listening to Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, and Bunny Livingston makes this writing stuff much more natural for me.
flow....
Greetings Flow....some super thoughts in your post today. When you have time,could you share with me,as the new kid on the block, more of what you mean by 'living in the matrix? I'd like to pursue some additional thoughts on that.
I find it very intriguing.
Blessings fellow traveler
Jerry
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I believe in free will. However, I don't think it's possible for me to KNOW I have free will. I could be an automaton, programmed to believe I have free will, while all along my choices have been mapped out for me with sufficient randomness to fool me. We certainly could be living in the matrix.
Good thoughts Aletheia,
I especially like what you said about randomness. Driving down the expressway just yesterday, in a driving rain, it suddenly occured to me that just one person, having a heart attack on THAT road at THAT time,could have changed the lives of myself and others on that road. Was it 'mapped out' as you said, that we all were allowed to safely arrive at our destinations? Maybe....chance and randomness do in fact rule and order our lives.
Thanks for your succinct thoughts,as always, you are a breath of fresh air on this board.
Jerry
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'The serpent said to the woman,"You won't die...but God knows your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God,knowing everything,both good and evil"
Gen. 3:4
Whether you believe this really happened,doesn't really matter. Because all of us KNOW that we have the awesome power of choice....and God has absolutely no power over our choices. Do you agree?
Looking foward to YOUR thoughts,
Jerry
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Genesis 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul" (soul = nephesh in Hebrew).
The soul is life to the body.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruwach - Breath of Life) shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). When God "taketh away their breath (ruwach), they (men) die, and return to their dust" (Psalm 104:29).
James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead..."
John 3:6, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
God is spirit so to walk with God and communicate with God one must walk in his spirit.
The soul that gives life to the body; and spirit to communicate with God.
Hi Soma...good post
I heard Depak Chopra say recently..." The barrier between our mind and our soul is 'paper thin'. And he went on to say..."The more the mind thinks about the soul,the closer it is drawn to it." The mind keeps getting closer and closer to the soul, until one day, the mind actually falls into the soul, and becomes one with it.
I like that analogy....what do you think?
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Soul makes you want to dance, and spirit makes you want to fly. That pretty much covers the subject for me.
flow....
Great Post Flow! I'm with you on this.....and my spirit has come dangerously close to flying lately. "Mote it be"...as my pagan friends say.
Blessings to you fellow flyer
Jerry
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It has not been my experience. If it is true, God really screwed up at some major points and I refuse to believe in him/her! IOW it is easier for me to accept that God is not in control then it is that God would let certain things happen to me, other people, and even in the world.
Hi October....It has not been my experience either.
I've come to believe that we live in a 'messy' universe,and that if we are to discover our deep spiritual roots,we have to become what Jack good calls,
"chaos tolerant".
He also says,"A progressive faith is one that begins in grief." grief over the loss of the 'certitude' of our conservative upbringing. I totally agree with him.
Blessings,
Jerry
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"We live in a world of chance and randomness" Bishop Spong
Does God really have a plan for your life....and does He ever let you in on it?
" The flapping of a single butterfly's wing today,produces a tiny change in the state of the atmosphere. Over a period of time,what the atmosphere actually does, diverges from what it would have done. So in a month's time,a tornado that would have devastated the Indonesian coast doesn't happen. Or...maybe one that wasn't going to happen does." Ian Stewart ,The mathematics of Chaos. pg. 141
Were you brought up in a world where God kept everything in order? I was. I was always taught that God was in control of our lives, and the circumstances that took place in our life. Is that really true? What do you think?
Looking forward to your thoughts,
Jerry
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Speaking from my own experience as a gay male and UCC member I can say that Progressive Christians can, and often do, "walk their talk" when it comes to this issue of accepting and welcoming diversity in their communities. The church I attend has been "open and affirming" for about 12 years and has openly gay, lesbian, and transgender members. It is sometimes difficult to put this experience into words, but I will offer a few observations.
First, I initially selected this church because of it's "OA" status. Any doubts I had were dispelled within minutes of walking into my first worship service and I became an active member four weeks later. Second, in this particular congregation, my status as a gay person has never made me self-conscious of my so-called status as a minority. The feeling of openess is almost as natural as breathing. Of course, experiences vary from congregation to congregation and all that I am saying here is that Progressive Christians certainly have the potential and the will to make the celebration of diversity a concrete reality.
As to the movie ... it's a remarkable artistic achievement that transcends the "gay issue" ... well, that's my opinion anyway.
minsocal
Minsocal.....I like your statement "The feeling of openess is almost as natural as breathing" Oh God...let it be so!
My oldest daughter is gay, and has had a commited relationship with her partner for 25 years,so you can understand my fervent prayer that acceptance of gays and lesbians should come sooner rather than later.
Blessings to you,
Jerry
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I only have skimmed this string but I hope to get back to it when I have more time. But I was thinking that maybe a Quantum Physics idea would be helpful here: Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle which claims as a corollary I believe that the observer always changes anything that he/she is observing. There is no such thing as objectivity, only subjectivity. I am always changing things. Prayer helps me change things with more wisdom, energy, love, humility.
I am sure impressed with the many wise posts on this string and lots of other strings. Lots of wisdom here. Lots!
+ VISIT > http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/
+ "I believe that the existence of the classical "path" can be pregnantly formulated as follows: The "path" comes into existence only when we observe it."
--Heisenberg, in uncertainty principle paper, 1927
Hi Mystic....I like your statement" I am always changing things...prayer helps me change things with more wisdom,energy,love, humility".
What a solemn responsibilty,and yet...what a high honor and priviledge!
Thank you for this post
Jerry
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I see God as including us, but being more than the sum of people/earth/etc. The more I learn about God experientially and intellectually, the more convinced I become of His limitlessness.
I don't think we have the perspective to understand why God answers some prayers and not, seemingly, others. Imagine seeing the world across time from beginning to end.... imagine our limited view. We can't understand God but we can trust Him.
I don't mean to discount the importance of acting in the world in accordance with our beliefs. I think that God does use us all, all the time. I just think He has choices.
God is big. He won't fit in any boxes we create.
Cynthia.....You are certainly right about us having a'limited view'. I'd like you to expand a bit about God having 'choices'.
I want to learn everything I can about effective prayer ,and you may be on to something regarding God's choices in the prayers He/She answers. Tell me more!
Blessings to you,
Jerry
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"no hearts to care but ours"
I've wondered about this one. My prayers were much more effective when I started Al-Anon. The 7th step is about praying for God to remove various defects in character. I had a number of longstanding resentments that went away that way, so completely that it really got my attention about the power of prayer. At the end of that process, though, there were still a few more resentments, about things that were certainly injustice. I almost heard God say, "those are yours to keep".
For the rest of my career and now that I do volunteer work for a charity, I'd be surprised sometimes at how much anger I'd feel at ignorant and arrogant things that where done to my patients or clients. What was this, paternalism, what? It was a longstanding issue for me whether this was righteous anger or something from my ego. Then whatever the feeling itself is, how does one respond to it in a godly way instead of just whatever I feel like doing.
There were times when I would say, "Wait a minute, I don't care about this personally. Why do I feel angry?" I can't point to any specific example where I would claim that it was God who was feeling something that was just diffusing into me, but I've wondered about that.
It's easy to say God doesn't have His own hands and feet, but does He have His own senses of some kind to bring Him information? Does He have His own emotions in response? Or does He truly have no emotions other than human beings or sentient beings elsewhere? Then do they feel what He would feel or would He wish to be an emotionless automaton as I do sometimes.
With no logical justification, my impression is that God never wishes to be an emotionless automaton. That's just me wanting a rest from all the suffering and craziness I see. So then are His emotions entirely within us or does He have His own? I don't know. I do believe emotions and many other things are a cooperative effort between God and us. I don't know how. I don't believe those churches which at one time held officially that God has no passions. That's not my experience from prayer.
At the same time I find it hard to believe that God can do nothing without me or others like me. Maybe that's true, though.
Good post David
You really cover some deep stuff there. I don't know all the answers to some of the questions you posed in your post, but I am feeling more convinced
every day that I live, that God can only do some things through us. I know that puts a heavy burden of responsibility on us, but there must be some reason why more of our prayers are not answered, Maybe God is 'standing in the wings' saying,"O.K. Step on stage and do your stuff....answer your own prayer".
Well...maybe it's time I took some 'acting lessons',and got out there on stage.
What do you think about that premise?
God,s best to you my friend,
Jerry
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I've used this on the board before, but it was some time ago.
While having a philosophical discussion with his disciples, the Buddha was asked by them " What he was". Not " Who he was, but What he was".
The Buddha replied, "I am awake."
flow....
Hi Flow.....I love Buddha's answer. And I truly believe that is exactly the problem with most of us...we are just not awake. I,ve often wondered....could it be that we are born 'fully awake' as babies,and as we grow older and time passes,maybe we fall asleep again spiritually. What do you think about that possibility?
Looking forward to your thoughts,
Jerry
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Part of the ancient practice of yoga was the process of actually 'watching' the mind as it is 'drawn' toward the soul. The idea behind this process is, that the soul just 'naturally' draws the mind toward God. But....this can only happen as we remain 'aware' of that drawing. So maintaining awareness is the key to spiritual evolution. If we remain aware...THE PROCESS IS AUTOMATIC!
Looking foward to your thoughts on this,
Jerry
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I think that God mainly uses our hands, feet and hearts to answer prayer. Mainly, I think he uses our hearts, though. I have recently been reading some of Larry Dosey's work on prayer research and also I've been reading about research that shows that our intentions affect outcomes. That has made me wonder if it our intention for the person we are praying for that influences the outcome rather than intervention by God. However, I also believe that God is the life-giving energy that infuses all of life, including us, so maybe it's the part of us that that has God's spark (our soul or spirit?) that is used to answer prayers. I'd really love to see any feedback on these two ideas you might have. I'm just in the process of working through these concepts so all new insights are welcome.
Maggie...I love your take on this, especially where you said" I also believe that God is the life-giving energy that infuses all of life,including us,so maybe it's the part of us that has God's spark that is used to answer prayer". I too believe that's how it works. Someone has said," We are a piece of God". And by the way..someone quoted the scripture here recently where Jesus said," The works I do you will do...and even greater works will you do". John 14:12 Maybe we should take Him at His word, and attempt some 'great things'.
Blessings to you Maggie
Jerry
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I have come to believe...God has no hands but ours...no feet but ours...no hearts to care but ours,hence God ALWAYS uses us or our resourses to answer prayer.
What do you think about this?
Jerry
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I thought you all would like this quote. It, to me, sums up to case for progressive religion.
The Essential Alan Watts
On FAITH
Faith is a state of openness or trust. To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don't grab hold of the water, because if you do you will sink and drown. Instead you relax, and float. And the attitude of faith is the very opposite of clinging to belief, of holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith at all. Instead they are holding tight. But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be.
Any thoughts?
Cynthia......I really like your concept of faith stated here.."But the attitude of faith is to let go". What a radical new concept. All of we fundamentalist were taught to 'hang on' in faith, until God answered our prayer. I am coming to believe, that is not how much or how often we pray that matters...but how much we trust the waters of grace to hold our heads above water.
Thank you for this post,
Jerryb
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I read it as having to do with shedding our presuppositions of what God should be like. Of letting go, if even for just a moment, of all our baggage we accumulate as adult humans living in today's world. Of putting off the ego-centeredness long enough to view the world through fresh and unjaded lenses. Of putting ourself back into a state of childlike innocence, where everything is wonderful, where everythings is "Look! Look! See!"
"The Kingdom of God is within you and all around you ... "
"Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child ... "
Aletheia...I too like your concept of 'shedding our presuppositions of what God SHOULD look like'. I still have some work to do on that one. But I'm working on it...and I hear the old african American man singing.."I ain't what I outta be , and I ain't what I'm gonna be, but praise God,I ain't what I was". Amen to that!
Blessings to you Aletheia,
Jerry
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Hmmmm ...
Let's pretend the word "sin" was never brought up. It's the "archery" metaphor I had in mind all along, but the "traditional Christian" definition seems too firmly entrenched to move beyond even on a progressive Christianity forum.
Instead, let's discuss (maybe, perhaps?) the idea of "aiming" ourselves towards God, rather than towards self. Becoming God-centered instead of ego-centered.
The Liturgical year (which I've never observed in my life) has grabbed my attention as a way to help do that, both as individuals, and as the "Body of Christ."
Daily meditation, perhaps in a "Centering Prayer" form comes to mind as well.
Oh....I like your idea of 'aiming ourselves toward God....becoming God-centered instead of ego centered'. Depak said today.."If we can learn to live from our soul outward,people will see that we are connected to God, and they will believe that they can be connected to God too'. Could this idea be 'real evangelism'?
Pondering......??????
Jerry
Does God Have An Ego?
in General Discussion
Posted
October.....I shudder at the thought of what God would look like if we wrote the 'Next Testament'....and of course, some day someone probably will.
Which brings up a good question: "if you were asked to tell a totally illiterate person the four most important things about God....what would you say?
Blessings
Jerry