October's Autumn

Well... actually, I don't. 

Then what is the point? You claim you want a discussion but when your point, taken to its logical conclusion falls apart, you simply refuse to discuss it? You can't blame God. It sounds like you are putting blinders on to reality. You can't have it both ways. God either killed her child or didn't save MOW's life.

BTW, It is actually not uncommon at all for a car to be totaled and a person walk away unscratched. Modern cars are designed to protect their passengers.

Pragmatically, what does it hurt to see God?  It does a lot of good and where's the harm?  And, intuitively, we all know it was God.

Because then you have to explain the pregnant woman who was seriously injured in a car accident this week and her unborn child was killed... her fiance was also in the car, I'm not sure what his injuries were or what the drivers injuries were but where was God there? Why should one person be killed and another not?

Pragmatics doesn't play a part in it. God doesn't kill some and maim others and protect others. What kind of god would that be?

We don't "all know" it was God. It was not God it was physics. It is about where your body is and where the components of your car are and what protects you and what doesn't and how the car spins, how healthy your body is and how it is able to heal and/or protect itself.

No one complained about the first study where the heart patients were supposedly helped by the prayers... hmmm... seems the problem is with the end result itself.

I personally don't believe God allows some people to live and others to die or be maimed in automobile accidents or other accidents or even by birth. It happens because of physics or disease or genetics.

Miracles do happen but they are simply a label for when things don't go as planned in a good way versus a bad way. I don't believe God causes them to happen.

It was Gideon who tested God with the cloth and the dew. Probably in the prophets of the Hebrew Bible.

I don't like McCain either. Now I know why

Thanks

Just to update: I signed a contract with San Bernardino City Unified School District starting in July. Don't know what grade or school yet but I'm thrilled and can hardly wait to get started!

yup. it was certainly a big chunk. Although the process started to really take form as an undergraduate it was Seminary which really separated me from those around me!

I think become progressives or liberals versus inherit it. Not to say that education of the children we do have/adopt is not important but it is really something one comes to through process not something that is as much passed on.

Depends on the topic.

John and Luke more strongly illustrate Jesus' message of equality for women.

I wish I could watch the skating w/o the commentary. One guy in particular was very annoying and I wanted to introduce him to a ball-gag! Can I mute the speaker and not the music?

The Story of Brian? :-)

 

ducks an runs.

 

--des

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awww... you stole mine! Life of Brian (my husband corrected me!)

I was thinking Last Temptation but it starts out by basically saying it has really nothing to do with the Bible (can't remember the actual disclaimer but do remember wondering what all the hoopla was about when it started out that way).

hmmm... I don't think there is a a movie out that would be a Progressive view of Jesus.

Have you seen the UCC commercial?

www.ucc.org

PC folk I have met seem to like to talk about how bad conservative Christians are and how awful the doctrines of the past have been.

It is part of the grieving process. It is also part of separating oneself from a former identity. I could be wrong, but I don't think too many people who were "born" progressive do that. It primarily comes from those of us who have been there, done that, didn't care for and walked a very difficult and painful path to get out (a path that is still not finished).

As for Jesus loves me, Ok I'll buy your argument that Jesus was fully human and not fully God. But then if Jesus is taken into the right hand of God, he is not still in bodily form is he?

not to derail the conversation but this is part of the reason I'm a Unitarian

http://www.uscj.org/index1.html

http://rj.org/

http://www.jrf.org/

These are three websites where you should be able to find congregations. I went to a liberal Conservative congregation. Don't let the "conservative" fool you, they can be very progressive! However, you might find the reform and reconstructionist congregations more comfortable as a non-Jew.

For the UCC the web address is www.ucc.org and you should be able to find a congregation or two for things like Ash Wednesday, etc.

You already have some awesome ideas for what to do during the holiday.

Thankfully, I live far away from my family so it isn't an issue for me, plus I'm involved in a UCC church. I've already volunteered to work in the nursery for the Easter Sunday service since Easter really isn't my holiday!

You can also get together with friends and have your own Passover celebration!

Then there is the major problem with it of "saved a wretch like me".

Funny on the comment about the slave trader being a wretch Well, not funny because it is a horrible, nasty, evil activity...

anyhow...

I just spent the weekend with High Schools students cabin camping in the mountains and we share the experience with the DOC who are more conservative. Anyhow, they sang the amazing grace song in the old way and I still think the wretch part ruins the song. I did notice in the UCC camp program it changes it I can't remember what to, but not derogatory. There was another one that would have been awesome had it not been for the "I don't know why" of why God loves us. Well, duh! God created us (or so Christian theology goes -even if not taken literally) so of course God loves us!

*sigh* SOme great songs made messy!

October's Autumn wrote: "My experience is most of them are quite comfortable with the simple answers and aren't willing to seek or have in interest in seeking truth.  Try and tell them the truth?  They just respond by telling you that you are going to hell "

 

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I don't believe most people who have been attracted to the churches associated with the Religious Right will tell us that we are going to Hell.  I believe that most of them were attracted to a congregation which offers a simple message coupled with a lot of love and music which rocks.  The threat of Hell is background noise these days.  It's still there but quite diminished in most of the rhetoric.  That's why their success has been so big lately. 

Like I said it is my experience. And the most common response to why not believe in God/Jesus/Church when is usually the "you'll go to hell if you don't!" You may have a different experience, but this is my experience.

Christ reaches out to everyone especially the common man, those least among us.

 

Sometimes I think that Progressive Christianity smacks of elitism. A religion for the spiritually sophisticated not meant for those of meager intellect and spirituality.

 

The truth must be sought, true. But is it right to concede the common man to the religious right. Let him go to those who wish to capitalize on his ignorance.

 

I feel that if Progressive Christianity wishes to counter the negative influences of the RR they must find some way to reach out to those common folk who are being manipulated, misguided, and taken advantage of for political and material gain.

 

I feel that as good Christians we should be compelled to help these poor people, to “save” them from the tyranny of the RR.

 

Or will Progressive Christianity be just for academia, egg heads and tree huggers.

 

 

Forrest

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My experience is most of them are quite comfortable with the simple answers and aren't willing to seek or have in interest in seeking truth. Try and tell them the truth? They just respond by telling you that you are going to hell

In the theological circles I've been in the contrast between orthopraxy and orthdoxy is the contrast between having to believe the "right things" vs. doing the "right things." Again, in the circles I've been in it is a contrast between reading the bible every day, praying before meals, having the right set of beliefs (anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro- death penalty, etc.) vs. advocating for the poor -- in all of its various forms, walking along side someone who is in emotional or physical pain (like hospice or helping people who are stricken with AIDS) or taking in a pregnant teen who has decided to have her baby but has been kicked out of her home. The emphasis is on being God or Jesus to those who are in need in just about any way you can think of.

Cythia's definition is a more broad (and technically correct) definition. My use is more narrow as defined by above. For me it is the difference between the church I grew up in and the church I go to now.

Average Joe in the street is drawn to the simplistic appeal of the right. The progressives don’t reach out to him the way the right does.

 

Why not?

Because the truth has to sought.

Except the response didn't make sense.  I said all religions have truth in them, not all religious statements.   I still haven't seen an acknowledgement to that misreading of my original comment.

You originally said "there is truth in all religions and there are lies in all religions." When I inquired about how we distinguish between the two, you said "We can't. Nor are we meant to." It seems that you are asking us to be agnostic when it comes to others' religious claims, but not your own.

No, I'm suggesting we all be humble and realize we could be wrong and others could be right and vice versa. I don't believe God is caught up in the orthodoxy but more concerned with the orthopraxy.

To assume that I'll someday reach an "objective truth" with my beliefs would be arrogant on my part.

But, isn't an objective knowledge indicated in your statements above? How else could one claim to know that "there is truth in all religions and there are lies in all religions"?

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It is a reasonable and logical conclusion.

I messed up my last post , so I thought I'd redue it .

 

I don't know , I just don't go along with that type of reasoning. Author Daniel Quinn dealt with this issue in one of his books. Quinn often says" there is no one right way for people to live". His critics will say" isn't your saying there is no right way for people to live ,telling us the one way to live". He regards such arguments as meaningless. It's like saying "'there is no one right way to cook an egg", is telling you how to cook an egg or "there is no one right time to go to bed " is telling you when to go to bed.

 

Even the statement " Christianity is based on the death ,burial ,and resurrection of Jesus " would be open to debate by scholars like Bart Ehrman or Burton Mack . They would  probably argue that that is just  the form of Christianity that  for various reasons became dominant in the 4th century.

 

 

 

MOW

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My husband is big on logical fallacies. I explained to him the discussion, he said that the term (I knew there had to be one, but didn't know what it was) is called "straw man." Basically shooting down a psuedu-related point to say that the other point is wrong.

"Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely" We have to look within to relate to God, not through a minister or Church hierarchy. Maybe God has given us such an abomoninable government to see that the best way to reach a "beloved community", is to start within, not to look to those using the patchwork of antiquated and usurped rule we call government.

 

A loving society starts with you, not The President. If you think about it long enough, you'll realise it's great news!

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I wish it were true. Unfortunately attitude and prejudice (unlike wealth) do actually trickle down. People take there cues from The President and seem to think that behaving the way he behaves is acceptable.

“When we culturally and socially create a picture of a self-obsessed God, it is hard to motivate people to be different than that God.” - Miroslav Volf

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I like that quote.

YES!