October's Autumn

I find it very conforting to know that the sky is all around us, which seems to be the case rather than just above us which is what we are told.

 

God is infinite, which we would assume is everything; therefore, God is in matter.

 

Universe...........Uni....one.....verse.

 

Physicist say everything is vibrating.  The word

 

All vibrations come from one vibration.  The word within a word.

 

It that better or worse?

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ummm... not sure... I don't see the jump from everything is vibrating to the word.

or

how it relates to Jesus dying

In that case then, no, I don't find it comforting because I don't believe it.

Jesus died in the same manner so many Jews and others died in -- he was killed by the politics of the day on a cross of some kind. In fact there was worse ways to die -- like impalement. There is nothing special about his death. It was not any more of a sacrifice than anyone else who has died for political reasons or who has died and was not guilty of the crime they were killed for. We still kill people today who are not guilty of the crime they are sentenced to die for.

So why do we remember Jesus' death? Because of his life. It was Jesus' life that is significant. It is how he lived his life that matters. It is the way he treated those around him.

Somewhere, someone or some group of people have perverted Jesus message. They've forgotten his life and only pay attention to his death which was so common. His death is as insignificant as his birth. Neither are important.

It is JESUS' LIFE that matters!

  I've come to believe that all theologies, be they fundamentalism, liberalism, Gnosticism, etc. are essentially all admixtures of truth and falsity which, for various reasons, different folks are attracted to.  Ultimately, there must be some real truth in all positions in order to make a case for each.

I said something similar on a different thread earlier. I included all religions though!

I like the idea of the feminine returning to the divine but I suspect it will take some generations. I'm not sure I can undo the idea of God being male no matter how much my intellect recognizes that God does not have a ######! I continue to try, though.

Yes, some silly plot devices and I read everything with a bit of skeptism, but I also enjoyed it despite those things.

I was very intrigued by the injection of history into the story. I liked the tidbits about things like the pentacle, etc. Now I just want to know which of it is true and which is maybe true. I suspect that everything that is able to be proven (ie the pentancle) is well documented -- he seemed intent on making as much of that true as possible. He even changes voice when he goes into those parts.

Of course much is a matter of conjecture. I've little doubt that Jesus was likely married at some point in his life unless he was a celibate Essene. I'm more inclined to go with married, rather or not it was true after he was 30 or he had any children is another matter. I guess I basically figure that it doesn't change what Jesus did -- being married or having children -- he was still Jesus, still did radically good things.

I have problems understanding the controversy. Especially considering it is a work of fiction. But hey, I'm guessing these are the same people who think their kid is going to become a witch if they read a Harry Potter book!

Let's hope they don't make comments like one theologian did who apparently only said that the Gospel of Judas was "junk."

Give me a little more to chew on!

Wayfarer,

You have a way of putting into words many of my feelings and ideas that I can't.

Thanks!

"another religion" If anything the ad recongizes that Christianity is rejecting. It is the same religion!

I do like the "all the people" ad, but it doesn't clearly show that the UCC is accepting of the GLBT community.

Earlier theology? No, a modern theology. The UCC and other similar denomations and people are practicing the same theology as Jesus. Others are practicing a much later theology!

I don't make excuses or sugar coat for those who think it is okay to be racist or homophobic! Call it was it is.

I found that those who I had looked up to were much more "human" than they let on to be.  I also found out they were just flat out wrong about a lot of things.  As a female I was also seen as a second class citizen which also led to my leaving of the denomination of my childhood.

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Hi, October's Autumn. I think that was a big part of my revelation also, realizing that we all put on our pants (or skirts) the same way.

 

I now attend a denomination that does support that women have just as much "right" to represent God in church as men do. I'd rather celebrate the differences than judge by them.

 

Oddly enough, those who claim that, according to a *literal* New Testament, women have no right to take a leadership role in the church don't seem to support the apostle Paul's *literal* view that women are "saved" through childbirth.

 

wayfarer

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I was having a similar conversation with my husband last night. I was noting how people who are so bent on hating gay people but don't have a problem with gluttons.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think people should hate/exclude/whatever people who have addictions or are obese.

It is just the contradictions of literalists who pick and choose which scripture to focus on.

Hi OA,

 

Thanks for responding.  You seem to be pretty honest.  Actually, I've found that progressives and fundies are about equally judgmental of one another, in religious matters.  I say this from a very informal 3 year study of my own, posting on various theology boards and having dialog with folks with different viewpoints.

 

Personally, as a fundie, I've found that once I understood that it has been God's intention all along to save all mankind, it became immediately easier to accept both my fellow fundies--who largely reject my views--and progressives, who also usually reject my theology.  *sigh*  Being the world's only esoteric fundamentalist gets lonely sometimes, but there are benefits, too...for instance, being the world's only rational esotericist, I recenly elected myself to my second consecutive term as CEO and chielf spokeperson for the Society of Rational Esotericists.  Quite a prestigious position, you know.

 

Lonely though it is, still, human motive and behavior fascinates me, so I'll continue to collect data....

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ROFLing... I have felt very isolated in the past as my beliefs changed from fundamentalist/conservative to liberal. I actually started going to church again a little over a year ago because of getting frustrated with my interactions with so many conservative/fundamentalists (present company excluded) and needed to be around people who called themselves Christians who were not XYZ! I imagine you understand what I'm speaking of. It can be very lonely thinking for yourself instead of letting others do it for you... it is true, but in a different way, of some progressives...

I was sick last weekend and my husband went out and picked up a copy of the paperback. I read all day Saturday (can't think of anything better to do when feeling sick and you can't sleep). Anyhow, Thought it would be fun to discuss it with others who have read it.

When I began Bible school, I hadn't received the "gift of tongues" which the school (and the denomination) considers to be the primary evidence that one is a Christian, that God has seen fit to put his spirit in you. No matter how much I sought the "gift", God never gave it to me (even to this day some 30 years later).

That is fascinating. I was ten when I "received the gift." As I understand it, it has more to do with personality. "Speaking in tongues" is a form of self-hypnosis. Some people are more able to be hypnotized than others are. I had a good friend as a child who had a similar experience to what you did. Although, in the church I went to it was not seen as bad thing. They went with the idea that God gives different gifts to different people and even though many get the "gift of tongues" not all do.

Their logic was that God would not put his spirit in me because I was harboring some secret sin and was just too dirty for God to use. It was a crushing blow to me at the time because I looked up to the leadership of the school as being so spiritual and tight with God.

Yikes! Well, in a way we all are Actually, it sounds like they are projecting. What is interesting is that both Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker had secret sins and both spoke/speak in tongues... hmmm...

They did not want someone who had such a shady past to represent their school or denomination in the pulpit. My friend completed the school but, just like me, felt that he was considered second-class by God. Oddly enough, he *could* speak in tongues, surely evidence that he was converted.

Whoa!

God taught me some things through those experiences but those events definately were the seeds of my later discontentment (and eventual disowning) of the conservative, evangelical, fundamentalist approach to God, to the Bible, and to others.

My experiences differ some from the same place but I had the same end result. I found that those who I had looked up to were much more "human" than they let on to be. I also found out they were just flat out wrong about a lot of things. As a female I was also seen as a second class citizen which also led to my leaving of the denomination of my childhood.

Which fundamentals of the faith do you see as contributing to being judgmental and self-righteous?  Do you think progressives are more free from judgmentalism than fundies, and if so, do you think this is because of the reasons I stated in my earlier post...re a higher relationship and connectivity with God?

I can't answer for wayfarer. But I can tell you about my experience. Progressives are just as prone to being judgemental as any one else. But I find they tend to be judgemental in other areas, not so much in religion. But like wayfarer I find that I am a lot less judgemental than I was as a conservative/fundamentalist. I don't have a need to find who is in and who is out because there is no in and out. But that is more generally speaking, it doesn't keep me from having to watch myself be judgemental on a more personal level.

I don't see it as being in judgement of other faiths, either. The intended audience is those who feel excluded. They can come from any faith or no faith at all.

The senior pastor of my church told the story of a muslim woman who came to him after her son had been diagnosed with a serious developmental disability. She was feeling very isolated. She had seen the ad and came to the local UCC just because she needed someone to talk to about what she was going through. She didn't abandon her faith or start coming to church there but she knew she would not be judged or rejected by him. She knew this because she saw the commerical.

Rather than looking for a single book I would recommend finding books from the perspectives of people from different religions. I was involved with a synagogue for several years and read quite a few books on being Jewish as well as becoming Jewish. IMO, it is better to read a book about judaism from someone who is Jewish than to read a book about Judaism written by someone of another faith or of no faith!

Doesn’t it inspire you to know that God is manifest and un-manifest in pure consciousness here on earth?

No, but I haven't a clue what you mean...

I'm looking around for my camera. I have pix at a wetsite and I plan to add to them. Stand by...

 

--des

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*standing*

I also have been "rebooting" my saltwater aquarium, which is looking quite nice lately.

Sounds very cool. Can you take pics?

The prayer I tend to believe is more a contemplative prayer sort of more in placing yourself in tune with the universe and Creator, for lack of better analogies.

 

--des

I remember praying for atheist friends in middle school/high school. The effect? I grew to love them and see them as people who weren't that different from me.

I prayed before a test for God to help me remember what I studied. The effect? I relaxed and was able to focus on taking the test.

I prayed for a situation I was not in control of. The effect? I gained acceptance that I can't control everything. (Still working on that one!)

I prayed for someone who was in need. The effect? I realized I could personally help them or could lead them to where they could get help.

I think these are all examples of what you say, Des.

After choir rehearsal recently ,one of my choir members came up to me, and said she was praying for me. I simply thanked her, and I think that is enough. Sighting the results of a recent scientific study on prayer to her, would have been rude and disrespectful of her. Plus two Christians saying to each other " I'm praying for you", is a much more natural setting than in a lab experiment anyway.

I thinkyour response is completely appropriate and of course telling her about the most recent experimental study would have been inappropriate! For starters one study does not make the truth! And believe it or not there is definately psychological benefits to having someone pray for you (assuming you know it or believe it) just as there are benefits to having someone say they are thinking about you!

6. How might our understanding of who and what we are, as human beings, change if we remove the need for the sacrifice of Jesus as the Pascal Lamb, our redeemer?

I think it changes us at the core! I believe this because I think it changes who God is. God is no longer judging and demanding "his son" be sacrificed... God can be God when Jesus is not a sacrifice. With the sacrfice God is an angry volcano that will erupt if a virgin is not thrown inside...

Instead Jesus' death is recognized as a political matter... the Romans were afraid of him and his message. They killed him.

  So many very angry people here now.  sad.

Based on your responses it looks like you are the one who is angry. You don't seem to like to be challenged...

I googled for you oct. - "Results 1 - 10 of about 7,260,000 for scientific study prayer" = so, millions actually.

That isn't a cite. That is a google search for someone one somewhere talking about it!

You have to go to the professional journals which you will only be able to access through a University or College in order to find any!

In the past, people here seemed to agree that progressive was best defined by a spirit of receptivity to new ideas and an interested tolerance to other people's ideas.  This used to be a great board to have discussions on with people who disagreed or saw things from different views but could have a civil exchange of ideas.  I'd love to see discussions like those again.

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To me it means using my logical mind to be able to approach a discussion. I'm not open to some of the ridiculousness I see coming from various people or groups of people in the world. While I respect people's right to have their own beliefs if someone poses a comment which flies in the face of logic you had better believe that I'm going to challenge it. I will do it here just as I've done it in other places. I refuse to go to a church where I am expected to turn off my brain at the door and I refuse to participate on a board where I'm expected to turn off my brain when I log in.

"Thousands of good studies on prayer? I don't think so."

 

 

So look them up. 

Why not cite them? I'm only aware of two studies. I'm sure there is more but I doubt any where near thousands. There are way more important things to study than prayer...