Burl

Personally I think he is over the top.

 

Basically ... science, our logical intuition, even some of religious texts point to this determinism.

For Hahn ... our actions affect those around us and future generations. And not just "those and generations" the world in general. So in this sense they might have a say in our behaviours. So at least in this sense we belong to others. I presume Hahn means the same when for our ancestors as well in that we have some responsibility to them.

 

The last bit I would argue about that. I have no problem discarding an ancestral tradition if I find it to be nonsense.

 

I don't have a good sense of what Hanh means by spiritual values. But being the change you want to see in the world only works for so long.

If by 'over the top' you mean hyperbole we completely agree, but I think his thought points in the right direction.

After my previous reply I had to go look up what exactly does the word bless mean ... I sensed a circular regress developing.

While I am very familiar with it when it is used.

 

What; I need more blessing than I already have? ... I think God should save those for the starving in war torn Syria and the famine stricken parts of Africa.

 

Sorry the chemist in me in me got in the way of interpreting positive valence. Though I did not get a sense that Hanh would not be worried about the use of concrete or minerals in some negative fashion.

On the subject of the importance of connection to your ancestors and your existence as a means to pass on spiritual values to future generations? The maintainence of the connections within this everlasting chain?

 

What do you think TNH is getting at here?

 

PS: You are blessed, dude. Deal with it

Was not sure about your concrete seems to have a positive valence means

 

I think having an awareness of how we are interconnected with our food is fine. Blessing it per se is unnecessary at least in the literal Christian words we use.

The combination of cement, sand and rock does some really great stuff. Even if it offends the mineral world.

 

May God bless you.

This seems to be a dwindling topic. Why the universality of salvation in Christianity is not deemed more interesting by people who profess to follow Jesus is curious.

 

I tend to think there is a general lack of education about Jesus and Scripture in general.

Precept 1: Aware of the suffering caused by the destruction of life, I vow to cultivate compassion and learn ways to protect the lives of people, animals, plants and minerals. I am determined not to kill, let others kill, and not to condone any act of killing in the world, in my thinking and in my way of life.

 

My opinion is that this is hyperbole, a rhetorical technique Jesus often used. TNH himself admits it is an impossibility when he notes we cannot boil water or eat vegetables without killing life.

 

The minerals part I'm not so sure about. Concrete seems to have a positive valence.

 

Still, I think we must accept this as an ideal. Blessing every meal is an act of contrition as well as one of gratitude.

Chapter 7: For a Future to be Possible

 

TNH writes of the importance of connecting with religious roots and reinvigorating faded or disconnected precepts. This lies at the heart of Progressive Christianity.

 

It also is essential to the transmission of wisdom within contemporary society and the past, which Christians call the communion of the saints, and implies that without religious and communal involvement there may be no future.

 

TNH rephrases each of the Five Wonderful Precepts of Buddhism. I suggest we take each precept individually.

Luke 15:1-10English Standard Version (ESV)

 

The Parable of the Lost Sheep

15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes grumbled, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them.”

 

3 So he told them this parable: 4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

 

The Parable of the Lost Coin

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver coins,[a] if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’ 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Hi Lucas!

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." James 1:12

 

Thank you, Soma. I feel like I'm getting to know you better. You're an ok guy.

I can't help thinking we are not understanding the flower, clouds/rain/sun allegory.

 

There might be actions or behaviours that each of us might not like. But those actions are all made up of aholy or holy movements. There are no evil actions (or good) just the so called sin of thinking in such terms.

 

Despite what Hanh might suggest ... there is no energy that is divine or not divine.

 

 

 

It is.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but it comes across as let's just dispense with critical thinking and reduce everything to the least common denominator.

I am more an introvert so I really like the Quakers because of their silence and the Catholic symbolism, mass and Christian mysticism. I liked it better when the mass was in Latin.

 

Me too, but stretch your social legs a bit and move outside of your racial/historical/emotional comfort zone. You can do both. You will probably like Wednesday nights with Pentecostlists better. It's more informal.

 

Pentecostalism is the fastest growing sector of Christianity, especially in the non-US world. Now that you are relocated, take advantage and stretch out a bit. Don't abandon what you know, but open yourself up to new ways of approaching God.

I would agree with Rom. If there is such a thing as "original sin ", it would be choosing to live in duality at the expense of the real unity of all life . Sin came with the law when we set arbitrary points of references on a continuum and named them good and evil, right and wrong, etc.

No, there are no arbitrary points. Righteousness is not relative.

 

In Christianity sin is anything which makes it difficult for the Holy Spirit to abide. Sin is a natural part of life one needs to deal with.

 

We shower regularly and brush our teeth. It's a practice of personal hygiene. If we miss a day our teeth don't fall out and we don't break out in boils. If we pretend personal hygiene is arbitrary, and many do, first people start to avoid us and then health problems eventually set in.

 

The practice of maintaining personal holiness is the same. Sin naturally occurs as a byproduct of life and we remove it by the practice of repentance and forgiveness. One cares for the cleanliness of the soul the same way one cares cleanliness of the body.

 

Sin is spiritual poop. Yes, it is natural but please don't tell me refusing to wipe yourself is arbitrary

Soma, since you are interested in direct experience I wondered if you have spent much time in Pentacostal churches?

 

I lived in New Orleans for a couple decades and have spent a lot of time with authentic tongue talkers and people who were slain in spirit. I also attended several Voudou services but always felt like an outsider there.

 

My conclusion is that there is definitely something happening there.

The early followers of Jesus were called Christians. Some of them never even met Jesus nor had such a thing as the Bible to read. Since most PC's here have found an approach to God through the recorded teachings of Jesus wether verbal or otherwise, they have as much right to the label as anyone.

So while many here may feel like many of the recorded teachings ring true for them when placed in practice and they self identify as Christian they also have found similarities in the teachings of others that ring true to them and find no need to change the label they most identify with. I have no problem with that..... Do you?

In fact I don't really find labels all that important nor a single word or short series of a few vowels and consonants to adequately define an individual or his/her belief system.

Joseph

+1

>>I would argue the original sin is seeing the world in terms of good and evil is the "sin".<<

 

Weren't you just insisting on the reality of evil the other day?

Matthew was written around 70 A.D. It was based on redacted oral history (note it is according to Matthew; Matthew was not the author) and an unknown text referred to as "Q". Q has never been found, but is inferred from the commonalities in Matthew, Mark and Luke/Acts.

 

I think it's a fair statement to say that these three gospels are the best record we have of first century Christian belief.

Hi CA. You are trying to paint truths with a 3" flat brush when you need a pointed sable. The Hebrew word torah translated as 'law' is not quite like our English word 'law' and there is ceremonial law, civil law, religious law, a holiness code etc.

 

Add to that in Christianity Jesus was correcting the overly literal implementation of the torah adopted by the Jewish community.

 

The best place to start your study of Jesus' teaching of the torah is Matthew 22:36-40.

 

"36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

 

That is the Christian litmus test for righteousness.

Original sin is nothing more than egoism. People are universally born thinking they are the center of the universe and ignorant of God.

 

Christianity can correct this, but it's not the only way. Embracing interbeing or the shahada serve the same purpose.

Note that lectionary readings are part of the Progressive Christianity home page every week. I am attempting to draw the discussion board closer to its home. Point one of the eight points is most relevant: have we even read the teachings and example of Jesus?

 

My questions on this weeks reading:

 

1) Jesus has a large number of followers, but he gives them an unattractive message. Why?

 

2) The phrase 'pick up the cross and follow me' is used before the crucifixion is in view, so it must have meaning unrelated to Calvary. What could it be?

 

3) Jesus' rhetoric is that both parables support his conclusion in Luke 14:33, but this is baffling. What is the relationship?

Wow. You have pretty negative stereotype of Christianity built up there. I have seen a bit of that, but only in independent churches. I have been visiting a different church every week and almost never hear sin mentioned at all. Too many pastors more interested in people pleasing than in genuine spiritual leadership.

 

My complaint is that it is generally difficult to even find Christianity in many so-called Christian churches. Lots of lame praise songs with mayonnaise lyrics and sermons full of pop psychology. I was in a United Church of Christ a couple weeks where Jesus was only mentioned once incidentally in a prayer and the sermon was on the wisdom of Yogi Berra.

 

I don't think Jesus came to help us with everyday problems. In fact, he warned us that following him would make our everyday problems worse. He did not condemn everyday people for sin, but he did sharply criticize the shallowness of the Pharisees misuse of the law and pointed towards it's true spiritual goal.

 

Pick one of those sweeping generalizations and we can discuss it.

 

A direct question: Please describe the last time you attended a Christian worship service using the journalistic 5 W's.

Luke 14:25-33

 

 

14:25 Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them,

 

14:26 "Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

 

14:27 Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

 

14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not first sit down and estimate the cost, to see whether he has enough to complete it?

 

14:29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it will begin to ridicule him,

 

14:30 saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

 

14:31 Or what king, going out to wage war against another king, will not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to oppose the one who comes against him with twenty thousand?

 

14:32 If he cannot, then, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for the terms of peace.

 

14:33 So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions.

Romansh, I don't know these people and I wasn't there. I can only assume they felt the need to make contact. Often that just what people say when they are speechless but have to say something anyway.

 

Different communities grieve differently. That would not be an awkward statement in an African-American homecoming celebration. Elucidate the question and why it is important to you and I'll write more.

TNH mentioned one should not engage in sex unless it was within a long-term, loving relationship. Paul wrote that the particularly evil thing about sexual sin is that it is sin against one's own self. My experience with selfish sex is that these are both true. Some of my selfish sexual experiences are the ones I repent of the most deeply.

 

It's a lot like how one can stand in front of a stack of Marshalls and have a great headbanging time but eventually lose their hearing. The soul can withstand a lot of abuse, but eventually one's higher angels will take flight.

 

External peace really does grow from internal peace. There are a lot of effort being made today to destroy internal peace and break up healing societal connections. These are interesting but dangerous times.