Burl

photos upload

A retirement award for a Dean of a theology school. Ebony and some burl - I use miscellaneous cut-offs from the scrap bin.

I know it's too big. Mea culpa. Moses only used text so tablets were sufficient, but images and tablets are a different story.

A lucid, intelligent and accessible longread on scientism. I rarely post links like this, but the subject is important and the essay is exceptional.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-folly-of-scientism

Well stated, Soma!

Scripture is a road map, not a driver's manual.

Paul, when I finally get an image up you will be tempted to sell your pizza oven and buy a wood lathe. Australia is probably the greatest country in the world for turners.

You are right in that I did dip into hyperbole, but when two out of the three top medical journal editors publiclty state that less than half their published studies are valid I think it's fair to say science has a problem. These editors described a pervasive, corrupt system of industry control.

The lead CDC researcher evaluating vaccine safety research recently confessed that his committee deliberately destroyed any data which showed vaccines caused damage. Openly admitted fraud at the top levels of scientific review.

I did speak too broadly, but this is a casual conversation where comments are brief. I think we will end up largely in agreement.

Getting closer.

I'll try again. Seems my files are too big to upload. 25k max? We need some loaves and fishes style action around here.

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150 px sq and still too big? Is my ex-wife on this site? ;-)

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BTW, cute kid. Looks just like her dad :-)

Largely agreed. If you substituted tradition for science that would be a perfectly Wesleyan statement.

Unfortunately, science in the modern world has become thoroughly corrupted. The editors of the Lancet and the NEJM agree that science has dissipated into a money chase fueled by egos, cliques and corporatism. Money now buys the scientific imprimature without regard to to reality. "Science" today is ruled by funding, grants and academic incest. Novel hypotheses are siderailed if they might potentially collide with the money train.

True science (per Karl Popper, a statistical exploration not of truth but of what is the least false) is unfortunately just a remnant of the the Rationalist's ideal. It has been replaced largely by Scientism, an absurd modern theology where scientists are immune from human weakness.

We laugh at the old cigarette advertisements where four out of five doctors agree Chesterfields are best, but scoff if someone suggests herbs might be effective remedies for common ailments.

I don't dismiss science, but I will not worship it either. Science grew out of theology, not vice-versa. True science detects the fingerprints of God, but is useless in matters of ethics and morality.

I get how the inconsistencies and contradictions can make it more human, but I'm not sure one can stick with the title of Holy Scripture. To me calling it Holy Scripture implies some external being inspired the contradictions and errors. That doesn't gel with me.

 

I do however appreciate the contradictions and take them for what i think they mean - that other precious humans were seeking and trying to explain what they thought of God and life. They may have been way off the mark, but I give them credit for at least thinking. And sometimes they come up with some gems that I quite like.

In the old school, 'search for the historical Jesus' theme the argument is that it it more likely a biblical passage is reliable if it works against self interest. People do not confabulate inconsistencies if they are pushing an agenda. Liars do not intentionally reveal their own lies. An inconsistency shows the author is reporting accurately and not according to their prejudice.

My personal belief is that Scripture is essential for discriminating right from wrong per 2 Timothy 12-17, and that requires a comprehensive inclusion of all scripture (Jesus is the litmus test). All scripture must be interpreted twice: once when it it is written and once when it is received. Inconsistencies flag the need for deeper consideration, not rejection.

Well, I had no idea our humble jarrah tree had made a name for itself with its burls all the way over there in the US. I know when I was over there in the 90's that San Diego had a lot of eucalyptus growing there - does jarrah happen to grow anywhere in North America too?

Australian burls command astounding prices here and are in much demand by turners. Exceptionaly grand lathe tucker. I've made several presentation chalices, but don't know how to attach a pic to this software.

This Progressive Christianity article is one I can fully endorse. Your opinions?

http://progressivechristianity.org/resources/inconsistent-scripture-why-the-bibles-errors-are-actually-good-news-for-christians/

Burl,

I agree with you. God "chooses to work through unlikely people". Yet it seems to me we are all included as "unlikely people " and God is working in and through each of us no matter the position. If one could say Trump is chosen as a leader and divine vessel by God then in my mind one can also say that each of us are chosen as subjects and divine vessels. Howbeit some are vessels of honor and some of dishonor yet all are vessels made of clay by the Divine.

2 Tim 2:20 If we are all articles in the Masters house and it contains not only vessels of gold and silver but of wood and clay, some for honorable use, but others for common use.

Nevertheless are not ALL vessels owned by and subject to God's Will? What man can resist the evolutionary pull of the Divine?

Joseph

So is this a panentheistic or a pantheistic interpretation/like?

Panentheistic.

I believe God often chooses to work through unlikely people. Jonah. Paul. The Hebrews. Moses. Ruth. This elementary biblical theme is ancient in both Christianity and Judaism, yet on this Christian forum some find this completely orthodox concept novel.

I really did not expect all this brouhaha over such a simple comment.

I'm not privy to the reasons Malcolm X had a change of heart and mind and split with the NOI, Burl. There were probably a number of factors. Muhammed Ali eventually did the same thing. I would submit that it is possible both men saw the futility of keeping the Nation of Islam mindset alive in the midst of the racially diverse and highly charged atmosphere of the 1960's and 1970's. It seems to be somewhat more effective to attempt social change within a system rather than alienating the people who actually run the system.

 

They certainly made themselves and their causes more palatable to white folk! I'm sure many whites celebrated this outcome, and for that reason probably thought these men had finally "seen the light". I think it's possible that both men may have come to their decisions based on pragmatism rather than grace. Then again, maybe they are the same thing?

 

Steve

 

JFK and Smedley Butler similarly suffered willingly for the benefit of others. It's precisely that willingness to suffer for the benefit of others that is evidence of divine action.

"I submit this is undeniable proof Malcom X was transformed by the grace of God, and that he was utilized as a divine vessel. There is no other possible explanation." Really, Burl? That is the only possibility?

 

Steve

So when you decree Trump (or anyone else) as divine that is undeniable proof?

If God chooses Trump as a divine vessel it will be undeniably obvious.

So when you decree Trump (or anyone else) as divine that is undeniable proof?

Malcom X is the clearest example I listed. A virulent racist and second in command of a rich and powerful cult, he performed the hajj and was dumbstruck by the equality of men before God. He resigned from The Nation of Islam, converted to Islam and became a severe critic of Elijah Muhammad proclaiming the equality of men. He was assassinated by NoI because of his change of heart, and his life continues to draw an uncountable number of people to God

I submit this is undeniable proof Malcom X was transformed by the grace of God, and that he was utilized as a divine vessel. There is no other possible explanation.

As I said, I'm voting for Dr. Stein. I reject both uniparty candidates.

But we can tell a good tree by its fruit. If Trump becomes a divine vessel the character change will be undeniable proof.

"A divine vessel is a divine vessel unless it is not a divine vessel". The statement is self-referential.

I'm sure you had a valid point in mind but that statement does not communicate it. If you don't pull Schrodinger's cat out of that box how can anyone know it actually exists?

Your statement was not missed. It is illogical as it begs the question.

Some divine vessels of the twentieth century:

 

Enver Pasha

Kim Il Sung

Ho Chi Minh

Pol Pot

Saddam Hussein

Yahya Khan

Hideki Tojo

Vladimir Lenin

Hirohito

Chiang Kai-shek

Adolf Hitler

Joseph Stalin

Mao Zedong

 

But then it could be argued we are all divine vessels except when we are not.

God tends to pick unlikely vessels. I would not be at all surprised if Trump wins and does a decent job, but I'm voting for Dr. Stein based on honesty and brains.

Burl I like your thought, we are in the midst of the infinite so we are already there, we just aren't aware God is all around and inside us.

 

Thank you for your replies! As of the moment I'm not entirely sure what I believe, except from the fact that I invited Jesus into my heart not so long ago to be my God. Almost everything else is open to evaluation. I'm trying to understand my own beliefs and where they fit in the Christian continuum.

 

Are there progressives who believe Jesus literally rose from the dead to save us from a fallen world? Is that a valid belief?

Really, how would one prove to any sane person that life extended beyond the grave unless they actually did it? An Aramaic Ouija board? I would want to see it proven.

And would anyone trying to push a new Jewish sect hang their credibility on such a wild postulate? That would be just begging for rejection, and whatever one thinks about early Christians they were not stupid.