Burl

Church. Lots of community experiences, but spiritual community is unique.

I vote for better, but I'm not sure your chart is logical. Now deaths due to political conflict are labeled terrorism. Iraq, Ukraine, Afghanistan, Palestine, Libya, Egypt, Syria - none are labeled wars, but that is exactly what they are.

Back to 'what we can truly know', a subject more philosophical than religious.

Louis' points out that as long as one observes as an outsider or skeptic knowledge is limited. One must experience to have access to significant datasets.

Reading about meditation can inform one, but after one practices it more data becomes available which was not previously accessible.

One understands that childbirth is painful, but only those who go through the experience really understand.

We know racism is crippling , but only those who have experienced it really know why.

Parenthood is something most people consider, but until one is actually a parent they don't realize how pervasive a change it makes in one's psychology.

The tragic death of a child or grandchild is universally understood to be suffering, but Bill and Romansh have experiential knowledge that is simply not available to the rest of us.

We can read all the car reviews in the world, but we must buy the car and drive it for a while before the additional experiential data sinks in.

Theism is no different. If one starts from an attitude of belief, new data starts to become apparent. Life becomes more beautiful, interconnected and poetic. There is an increase in gratitude and a new richness in life. Suffering eases more quickly, people become more attracted to you and you to them.

One cannot know what they cannot observe, and often one's decisions limit what they are able to observe.

If you folks don't watch the video you will not understand the references. It is not a presentation it is a Q&A with Strathmore faculty and students. It is non-linear. The first 45 min are prepared questions. The last 15 min are informal questions which attendees developed during the colloquium.

The first bit has a lot about physics and mentions how we are all made of stardust. Romansh said that recently, and that quote is what prompted me to post the video in his thread.

I edited my previous post during your response.

Ha ha! Nobody is "like-minded" with me, Burl. They usually either lock up or burn at the stake people who think like I do.

I would unlock the bar and burn a few steaks.

Bill, you are obviously uncomfortable with the video of Dr. Louis' colloquium.

You are ignoring Dr. Louis ideas and substituting your own.

As a starting place, I suggest starting with Louis' analogy of faith and marriage. We can ask the first person to find to marry us, which is blindly stupid. Or we can analyze everyone until we can determine our perfect partner with certainty, which means we will stay single forever. So we analyze, get opinions from others whose judgment we respect and make an informed but uncertain choice.

After being married a while, we realize there is data about our spouse we never would have been able to observe without having made that choice. I imagine our meditators relate to this, as there seems to be something ineffable they experience during meditation that non-meditators cannot concieve of.

"Science, on balance, gives arguments for theism."

 

This may well be his opinion, but in Elaine Ecklund's book, "Science vs Religion: What Scientists Really Think", she found that 38% of natural scientists are atheists and that 31% of social scientists are atheists, for a total of 69% of scientists who are not theists. . .

It is also irrelevant. Dr. Louis was sketching a "T" chart of arguments for and against, not quoting a survey of self-labeling. He claims the number of logical scientific arguments for theism exceeds the number of logical scientific arguments against.

If you feel compelled to take issue with that particular statement, you would need to draw up his T chart and make your own additions.

There is great benefit in meeting weekly with good, gentle, like-minded people.

I understand. I used to be UMC but quit and joined a new, independent neighborhood church.

Which was planted by an ex-UMC pastor who surrendered his credentials.

UMC is diverse by location. Overall it is very liberal. The deep south reflects regional attitudes.

Since you seem stuck there, make the best of it and get involved in committees and work to be eventually appointed as a lay representative. UMC laity is equal to clergy on policy issues, and you could make a difference.

PS: Google the Chicago statement on infalliblity and inerrancy in Scripture. UMC does not subscribe to this, but it essentially says inerrancy and infallibility are impossible.

Oxford Professor of Theoretical Physics Ard Louis in colloquiem at Strathmore on science and faith.

To me, and if I had my druthers, I would like to see the Lectionary used as some sort of Adult Christian Education. Very much simplified, this would mean considering, "What did this scripture mean to the people it was written to, and does it in any way apply to us today? If so, how and why?"

 

But, in my experience, far too often the Lectionary is approached as the Word of God (in fact, my UMC chants, "the Word of God for the people of God", after the scripture reading) and assumes that the scripture passage was written by God to and for us.

 

When the Lectionary is used in this manner, it is just a big turn off for me. I would rather search it for ancient wisdom than for trying to listen for the voice of an anthropomorphic deity.

 

This is a criticism of Scriptural interpretation, preaching and the traditions of your particular church. Very few UMC churches I have visited even use the lectionary. UMC pastors tend to select whatever inspires them at the moment.

Not at this time.

You imagined the Israelites as an ancient, ignorant desert people who performed barbaric acts and then attributed their behavior to an imaginary god. Your words exactly.

This is a hot mess, and I cannot proceed from such a racist and condescending viewpoint. Take a mulligan and start over with a specific bit of Scripture you find enlightening and edifying so we can proceed in a positive direction.

My thoughts on the reading are still developing.

Paul, why the disconnect between the site and the message board? As a moderator you should an idea of why each tends to reject the other. I would expect moderators to have an active interest in synergizing the two.

That is one interpretation Burl.

 

But if I work to understand the bible, what seems to me to be a much more likely interpretation goes something like this: "We are a desert people quite ignorant around the cosmos and planet Earth, so the only way we can explain our existence is to think our lump of land was put here by a God who sits up there behind the dome roof and opens windows to let in rain from time to time. This God favours us and wants us to mutilate our genitals to prove we have a deal with said God, whom allows us to massacre and rape tribes who we either consider a threat or who's land we would like".

.

So for me it's not about holding an ancient, ignorant, desert people to 21c standards, but rather questioning the idea often promoted that a God is somehow justified in requiring people to behave in such a barbaric manner when such a God could just as easily directed those people to behave in a 21c manner instead.

 

For instance, God could have chosen to outlaw slavery but instead he chose to outlaw shellfish. Either not such a sharp God or perhaps it was just man creating the rules and attributing them to a God.

In this forum I prefer not to inject my interpretations until others have had a chance to comment, but I find this passage from Isaiah speaks directly to the heart of Progressive Christianity. What is your opinion?

I agree that there is a notable disconnect between the website and its message board. Why do you think that happened?

Paul, reading from the lectionary is an established part of Progressive Christianity. Perhaps you should consider spending more time on the website articles.

Isaiah 1:10-18. English Standard Version (ESV)

10 Hear the word of the Lord,

you rulers of Sodom!

Give ear to the teaching of our God,

you people of Gomorrah!

11 “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?

says the Lord;

I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams

and the fat of well-fed beasts;

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,

or of lambs, or of goats.

12 “When you come to appear before me,

who has required of you

this trampling of my courts?

13 Bring no more vain offerings;

incense is an abomination to me.

New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—

I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts

my soul hates;

they have become a burden to me;

I am weary of bearing them.

15 When you spread out your hands,

I will hide my eyes from you;

even though you make many prayers,

I will not listen;

your hands are full of blood.

16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;

remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;

cease to do evil,

17 learn to do good;

seek justice,

correct oppression;

bring justice to the fatherless,

plead the widow's cause.

18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:

though your sins are like scarlet,

they shall be as white as snow;

though they are red like crimson,

they shall become like wool.

Thormas, I am trying to be direct and readable. This is a casual after-dinner conversation from my POV, not an academic fussathon. Sometimes I step on a toe but at least I got people posting again. Look at the history sometime: from 2012-2016 this place was moribund.

I agree with you that the supernatural cannot be analyzed, but an apparently supernatural event can indeed be analyzed to exclude natural causes and this is frequently done, as was done with Medjugorje. In that case, natural causes were excluded and the event was considered consistent with previously described supernatural events.

>>crickets<<. As everyone who clicked my link is aware. >>/crickets<<

I was Catholic and came out as a Wesleyan in adulthood. I'm hoping my baptism will get me into Catholic heaven instead of Protestant heaven.

https://youtu.be/idLQ26P9dpQ

Blackmore started off with an illogical bias, then confused her failure to find evidence as evidence of nonexistence. Her wild goose chase failed, but wild geese exist.

I was taught in the eighth grade that one cannot prove a null hypothesis. Maybe she missed that day.

I think anyone who is not a consummate egoist must be open to the possibility of a supernatural realm. Not believe or disbelieve, but simply leave a little mental compartment for evidence which cannot be analyzed. Yet.

Paridolia is an well recognized human trait. It has been studied and found in infants, so we understand why people see faces in wood grain, tortillas and dog butts. We have a good grasp on this natural phenomenon.

Medjugorje is a special case. Lots of studies were conducted because millions of people simultaneously experienced what they considered miracles for several years. Something definitely happened there, and it is not completely explainable by natural means. Lots of evidence.

Questioning the reality:

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje/scientific-studies.html