romansh

In our summer we hit 46 °C ... definitely a record ... currently snowing though. A second Merry Christmas

Here's wishing everyone a Merry Christmas (a little early) and by this I mean: Acceptance that we are the result of our unfolding universe. Understanding that we too shape the unfolding of our universe.

In my world, questioning what I believe is a strength, not some sort of crisis that needs fixing. Be strong. Like you I suspect, I see conservative Christians take on on positions that seem the very antithesis of what Christianity purports to be about. Regarding the request for prayers for "questioning of faith". I am not sure whether the intention is for others to pray, or to look for a meditation for you. It would seem that these "Christians" are causing pain for you. There are two aspects ... outside and inside ... cause and effect if you like. Perhaps take "a look" at the causes (history indoctrination if you like) these Christians have received to get them where they are today. Perhaps you will find they are simply a product of their environment. And perhaps you will find that they too are in a pain, because of where they find themselves. My mirror neurons fire for you.

Well I am not sure Scandinavians went and looked at the Bible and said these bits should work and those didn't. Probably looked at what wasn't working in their society and and tried something different. More based on desired outcomes rather than just desserts. We'll see how the experiment works out. The problem with going to old religious doctrines for direction is that these doctrines are subject to interpretation. I think the secret is to try something and if it does not work understand the underlying structures to the failure and adjust your strategy. And if the strategy looks more like a dogma then there is a likely problem. It's also likely worth taking a look at the underlying structures if the strategy works.

I was trying to be suggestively diplomatic in noting a good many are in your family.

Interesting ... I get the sense the UK is increasingly secular. As the CofE goes into decline are would be church goers splitting between Evangelism and the secular? Growing up there Evangelism was not a major thing one would come across. My wife and I had 45 years this year. Sorry about your sister.

Quite possibly, but it seems you have problems with everyday words. Out of curiosity is English you first language? Sounds like you were seriously bit, by the belief thingy. Did you ever enter the angry atheist phase when losing your faith? For me it was no big deal, as I never had much invested in faith anyway. Or did you just go straight to the more moderate agnostic phase? I don't get the sense tMJW is questioning his faith. But he does seem angry and very unlike the kindly JWs we tend to meet in person. When you were losing your faith did you have a tendency to lash out at those that posed difficult questions? I suppose it might be understandable, it would have been bad enough questioning one's own faith, you don't need someone else doing it for you.

When you say "he", do you think it is Jesus's words, or more of a composite of possibly some Jesus's thoughts and actions together with later additions of thoughts of scribes? I know in some ways it makes no difference. Yeah ... my cultural tradition is to think critically (in its broader sense) about what God might be and what makes for a sensible path to follow. In some ways Progressive Christianity has broken away from very cultural traditions, hence my interest. Here I see the concept of panentheism maintaining a slight sense of duality or can't completely accept oneness. God is in everything. As opposed to God being everything. Some questions that come to mind are, what is this that is in everything? Some have answered "Love", but that seems untrue. How can we tell whatever it is is in everything? I can't help thinking that this concept of panentheism is a reflection of God that can be found in the more traditional Abrahamic religions.

Paul ... that's "no fair". I was hoping tMJW could actually read the thing for himself and come up with this. This is now your idea and not his.

Whether it was Jesus or some later editor, I suppose it is irrelevant and belongs on a different thread? As to "morality", evolution has definitely given us a capacity to have a "sense of morality". Now what we pick to be moral about, is likely to be a reflection of our immediate social in-group and past interactions. Me personally? I am a little skeptical of "morality" as thing. In an unfolding universe it is a little hard to take morality seriously, at least for me. But I suppose 'Jesus', with a little guided interpretation, is a good place as any to pick up some rules of thumb.

1) The verse please where it says he rebelled! 2) The actual sin is tasting the "knowledge of good and evil" ... not doing it.

It was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. An important distinction. For me it points to thinking in terms of good and evil not actually doing good and evil. For example before partaking in the fruit is was ok to go around starkers. But once knowing of good and evil ... Adam and Eve had to cover up their naughty bits, because it was somehow bad in their minds to be naked. This of course is akin to hell being a state of mind existing in the duality of good and evil. Once we take this duality on board we can't be in this innocent Garden of Eden. Abrahamic based religions have been promoting to various degrees this duality for millennia. It is like tMJW's car salesman metaphor or allegory.

As an agnostic this is the only "perception" of God I have not ruled out (other than "perceptions" I have not come across yet. God being everything fits nicely under the label of pantheism. And of course Dawkins described pantheism as sexed up atheism. And I suppose this I why I have a soft spot for the concept ... it is where atheism and religion are effectively one. Of course there are a few caveats. This everything does it care about me? It certainly affects me and in return I affect it. I could go on, a lot longer, but thankfully I won't.

Just out of curiosity, do you proof read what you write? I know sometimes I don't but it may have been wise; but this is strange.

Well it is interesting that your metaphor for God seems to be equivalent to a used car salesman. The fact you anthropomorphize God's feelings show that the depth of your studies lack depth. I have been told by other believers that we cannot know the mind of God, but you seem to have a belief that you can reliably know what he might think with Chevies being driven counter to instruction. tMJW ... I am still waiting to find out where in Genesis it says the Adam rebelled against God. I am not interested in your folksy analogies (at the moment).

Can you point me to the verse where Adam and Eve ... should they have existed ... rebel?

It's a while since I have read Genesis, I don't actually recall Adam (and Eve) rebelling, but more being seduced by a snake. My interpretation of it is people have been seduced into thinking in terms of good and evil. My evidence? Genesis 3:22. So, that would make those that promulgate to think in terms of sin (doing good or evil) are the modern day snakes. Just wondering what is your take on good and evil? Got any answers? Reading through your posts you do not seem to answer questions. Interesting.

OK ... I am getting a sense of why other websites have ejected you. But do you actually have a point that you are trying to make?

It is not what? The few Witness's I have spoken to, have insisted on a young Earth. Are they mistaken? Are you saying you don't know how old the Earth is and don't have an opinion regardless of the mountain of scientific evidence?

If this is how you interpret what Paul has written, why should I pay attention to your studies of ancient documents?

If by "became" you mean certain reptile like creatures evolved over hundred million years or so into birds ... then yes. The fossil record is concomitant with this belief ... is it not? Do you really believe the Earth is only six to ten thousand years old?

When you use the word "theories", are using it in the vernacular .... ie idle speculation, thoughts, hypotheses, etc or more in a scientific sense where theories are predictive descriptions of phenomena that have many decades or even a couple of centuries of corroborative observation and evidence to support the theory? I'm just asking to get a sense of how serious your study is.

Which verse was that?

You have to try really hard to get banned here. But welcome anyway.

Yes ... but some do see impervious to its repercussions. I can think of some major metaphysical assumptions that I have to make in my existence, I was wondering what you might think my faith might be?