Brianmhager

I know in other forums, I am a minority of one. I consider that it may be the same here. I do not see it as after anything. I know that God created all there is and I know, in my heart, that when he finally brings time to an end we go on in him. Some years back I thought I lost my faith. Now I know what was wrenched from my grasp was all my petty little personal beliefs I picked up along the way in church and from family members and friends. They were my toys. God "broke" them; that is, he took them away because they came between me and him. He wanted me to have a vital, living, breathing relationship with him I found in prayer and return to all the time. That relationship, I think, will continue beyond the grave for me. The biggest single question in my mind is, will I experience my relationship with God as Heaven or Hell in what is to come? Ultimately, it depends on what I make of it.

There is a "strain" of Christianity that would say that all that is necessary to have "salvation" is the accept Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. Is it that simple? I have listened to these folks over the years and their "pitch" always begins with a Litany of Proof Texts strung together from the Jewish Testament and the Christian scripture to show me where I have gone wrong. Their claim is that by doing this deed they urge on me, I will “go right.” Really? Could it be more simple than that? The title of this topic: "I Tell You, This Man Went To His Home Justified..." Refers back to Jesus' parable about the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. He tells his audience that it was the Tax Collector's cry of unworthiness and request for Mercy. According to the Law, the man knew he was a sinner. What was it about the prayer of this unclean soul that Jesus remarked about his "Justification?" In the sermon on the mount, it seems to me, that Jesus provides the answer. "Blessed are the poor in Spirit, their's is the Kingdom of God." Righteousness - or Justification - is not a direct consequence of something we do. So the formulaic approach to "Being Born Again" or being "Saved" does not CAUSE the desired result. Like the first three Steps of the 12 Step program(s), the Tax Collector (in his prayer) states, "1) I can't, 2) He can, 3) I want Him to do it!" I know for myself, right now, that I am a sinner. I have been a sinner all of my life. I will continue to be a sinner until the moment of my death. Why? I am a limited and finite human being. I do not possess "divine omniscience." I only know one thing. My "salve-ation" comes from what God does in and through me. It is His action; His unconditional Love which "heals" my fatal flaw and fills me up so I am whole. The idea of Justification or Righteousness reflects that basic truth to me. It is also a distilled version of the Gift of Faith I received when I was finally willing to accept what He wanted to give me; what He has always wanted to give me, all of us. That is my understanding of why the Tax Collector went home Justified. Brian

I saw his portrayal as the epitome of the tax collector's cry of unworthiness. Quite simply, like all of us he is a sinner and has experienced the depth of his sin. In the face of Unconditional Love we will eventually all feel our wretchedness. Yet Jesus does not condemn or judge us, He does not tell us how bad or evil we are He shines the blinding light of His acceptance into the hole in our hearts and makes us "whole." Alas the Pharisees of our world - past and present - are so focused on avoiding sin or balancing the scales they fail to notice the absolutely unbelievable Love and Grace God, through His Son's Resurrection - showers upon the world. I do not say this to judge or condemn; they judge and condemn themselves by the judgement they too often pass on others. Remember the words of the Pharisee as he prayed, "I thank you Lord that I am not like other men ... or like that tax collector." I can only imagine how much such a soul succeeds in walling God out of their lives, because He does not look or act like the God they have already fashioned in that hole in their souls. It is like the statue King Nebuchadnezzar sees in his dream. In time, the statue or idol we all create for ourselves will be struck down. I recall that when that happened to me, I thought I lost my faith. It turned out that it wasn't my faith I lost, but the golden calf I fashioned out of my own beliefs. I went from being a Pharisee to feeling the agony of the tax collector (or the bad lieutenant). Brian

Pardon my ignorance, but my understanding of Christianity is that Jesus and the Father are One?

How can Heaven be a place? Place suggests finite physicallity. My understanding of what may come after this is that it is eternal - without end or limitation of any kind. Peace, Brian

I would like to recommend a wonderful book to all of you. It's called, "CRISIS" by Mitchell Gold. It's an anthology of various individual's Coming Out Experiences, most in the context of their faith life and some accounts by a couple of parents - at least one who tells the story of her daughter who felt compelled to commit suicide because she felt her daughter was wrong; much like the "Prayers For Bobby." There is also a witness by a gentleman who is, or was, an evangelical and it's billed as "An Evangelical Applogizes." The book, I believe, was inspired by the rash of young gay men committing suicide in the last several years. You all might find it highly inspirational and educational. I know I did. Brian

So, Hornet, what is your view of Heaven, in addition to Hell, & Free Choice (or Free Will)? Brian

Have you read Bishop Spong's book, "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism"? He has an interesting take on this. Someone appearantly suggested to him that Paul may have been repressing same sex attraction. At first, I thought that was a bit "stretched." But Spong went on to point out similarities between what Paul wrote in many of his letters and well known individuals today who are rabidly homosphobic, like Ted Haggerd, who were later caught up in a gay sex scandal. I am not totally convinced, but it was enough of a crumb trail to open my mind to that possibility. Peace, Brian

What is key for me about the rejection is the idea pushed by many today who portray a particular image or conept of God as the "Condemning Judge." They run around telling people that "they'd better be careful or God will send them to Hell!" Really? Is God really doing the judgment or are they? And if their veiw of God is "not entirely" correct (I use that term loosely), does it resemble them and if their view of God does resemble their beliefs, preferences, values, would they recognize the God of Love when they finally stand before Him/Her/It? I don't think God particularly cares. Unconditional Love doesn't keep track of wrongs or rights, it only seeks to give itself away. However, if someone cannot accept Unconditional Love - especially for those they consider WRONG - and rather cling to their own "self image, self-created-image" of God would they find it in themselves to then embrace God and the people they spent their lives condemning? I can't really answer that. I only consider that I try to allow God to show me who S/He is in and through the lives of the most wounded, broken, and marginalized of our society. Again, I won't lay the idea of what a person's disposition in the afterlife will be at the feet of God. I consider it a "personal choice." Just as I believe that the methaphor of Adam and Eve (I don't consider it a literal history) was that in the context of the story, they turned their backs on God and Left the Garden. Why? I think it has to do with the choice of Trees they ate from. These fictional characters demonstrate how we can choose either to "know it all," or accept Life - whatever that may be. Does that help you understand my view any more? Peace, Brian

The greek word "Apocalypse" means literally, "to pull aside the veil." In this life, we live by faith, not by sight. The longer I live, the more I am aware of daily acceptance or rejection of God's coming to me in each present moment. Yet, what I accept or reject here is without the benefit of standing before God as s/he is. When I finally die and enter into the Lord's presence I will see, fully, what it is I have rejected or accepted in this life. My hunch, and I am really only speculating here, is that if I fully rejected the God of my understanding here, I will see in totality, the subject of what I rejected. I don't know, but my thoughts are that it will be more difficult to embrace the truth of God then. All of this, for me, was a way to reconcile what I was taught since my childhood with the growing awareness of who God really is as I grew and matured in faith. Could I be totally wrong about all of this? Perhaps. Yet, it is the understanding that I possess today. How that may change tomorrow? I haven't got a clue. As an example, I have left the Catholic Church because the direction of that institution no longer paralleled my faith trajectory, but I know I must remain open to someday going back. Why? How? That is something only God can answer for me. Much of what I believe today is the result of God's light illuminating my path and inviting me to Love more deeply. S/he continues to apply a healing salve to my wounded soul. Therefore I am being saved/salved. It doesn't give me a truth or philosphy that is better than anyone else's. I simply share what I see on my journey and offer it because as a human person I am seeking to find my own way; my own voice in this world. Peace, Brian

I could not agree with you more Jenell! I arrived at my current view after a very difficult struggle to overcome my former "Roman Catholic" exclusive salvation thinking. I could never wrap my mind around the notion that only Catholics were going to be saved, because - according to the Church - the "fullness" of Grace resides in the Catholic Church. I sought to make a more inclusive view for myself in the idea of Heaven or Hell Freely Chosen by the acceptance or rejection of Love in one's life; not the "right" set of beliefs. I appologize if I was not clear about that. My brain can be my own worst enemy. I forget to include details that would make myself better understood. Much in the same way that people will often forget to include a word in something they write because they're thinking too fast for their fingers to keep up. Brennan Manning, the author of The Ragamuffin Gospel, helped me to finally accept the idea of a more inclusive view of "salvation." By "salvation" I am not refering to the more traditional definition of "being saved." I prefer the meaning of the root word in the term, "salve;" a healing ointment or balm. Just as my personal definition of the word "sin" now refers to a "lack" of God's presence in my heart when I fail to Love and accept those God calls upon me to embrace. I don't believe God wants me to be a doormat, but rather, am I willing to be a conduit for His/Her Love and Grace to those I perceive to be in need. So Heaven or Hell - for me - has become the inevitable outcome of my willingness to genuinely Love (and not hate) the people I meet. Sometimes real Love has to be tough - That is where I tend to fail most often. When I think of my Final Destination, I am aware that it is available to everyone, because everyone is capable of Love and receivintg God's Grace - again, not in the traditional definitions of those words or ideas, but a universal application that excludes no one and allows for the individual religious practices of the entire human race. I don't have to be exclusive in my faith for it to be efficacious for me. I hope I've made more sense. If you require any further explanation or qualifcation from me don't hesitate to ask. Peace, Brian

Thank you Joseph. I do second that. However, I also know it will take as long as it takes. The work place normally only allows three days for such matters. That may be good or bad in terms of preventing someone from just sitting at home depressed. But there is an unfortunate attitude that accompanies that on the part of people not touched by death. "Why are you still depressed?" As a nation, we tend to be far too removed from death and dying. We've sterilized the whole affair by the way most funeral homes "manage" it all. There are times when, depending on who dies and who the deceased is, that grieving may be significant or stoic. In particular I recall a woman who lost her husband at the Church that used to be my home parish. She was the church organist. She was also a member of a Charismatic prayer group. She was quite literally sobbing during the service and at one point felt so overwhelmed by the whole thing that she began to wail in "tongues." An older priest, an italian, who used to be a missionary got a horrified look on his face and another priest who was in attendance rushed over to try and silence her. I don't know if it were because they feared she might become histerical or what. But tha memory stayed with me and demonstrated the way in which Western Culture tends to stuff feelings and control emotions. In many ways, I still don't know what to think about that. My grieving for my dad, as you might see by the poem turned into an unexpressed anger, because even following his funeral no one bothered to talk to me or ask me how I was feeling. There seemed to be this assumption that I could never understand (at nine years old) what had happened. My mom and her brother spent a lot of time talking - before he had to fly back to Connecticut - and my brother just left and went somewhere, I never really knew where. I was left by myself, which became the overarching narrative of my life. Depending on how people deal with grieving younger family members it can set a tone for their rest of their lives. Even after all these years my brother has never spoken to me about that time and when our mother died, he went off to his side of the house and I went to mine. Happiness or Joy are some of the most important emotional highlights of life. They can be a source of bonding and spiritual growth. It has taken me the better part of my life to "thaw" out and get in touch with my feelings and my sense of who I am; which I found to be my true vocation in life. The sad part is that I don't know who my brother is. I don't know if it will be worth trying to share with him, because there are parts of my life I already know he can not accept. Too bad. He has no idea who I am either. Peace, Brian

I wanted to add one more thing to the thread on Suffering. 30 years after my father died, I was still experiencing some sigificant personal issues. I went back into Counseling for the third time and one session with my Therapist the undexpected popped out of my mouth. I basically told her that I had never grieved for my dad. When I was nine, my mom left me with a family friend while she and my brother went to my dad's wake and his funeral. 30 years later, it finally dawned on me that his death had remained an open account. I had never grieved for him. I had never let go of him. And there was the issue of my anger at him for dying and leving me alone which I still saw through nine year old eyes. For the next two years I worked on that. When I finally arrived in Miwaukee to begin my second try at Seminary I sought out a resident Therapist and began working with him on that. By the time I arrived back in Palm Beach County in time to be with my mom before she died, the seeds of a poem took shape that would become my ticket for "Closure." A Ticket I finally cashed in almost 14 years later when I wrote the following poem. Here it is: MY FATHER'S GONE My father's gone ... he died. He's dead! Yet, no one helped me calm the dread I felt with every passing day at home, in school and even play. No wake or grave did I attend; no closure meant: "There was no end." So as a shroud of sadness fell my life became a living hell of constant pain; a rising flood that chilled and froze my very blood. My body grew, but still a boy in temperament, no childhood joy could lift my eyes above the clouds. In time, I learned to act for crowds that garnered accolades of praise yet, told me nothing of the ways of how I should become a man; my mother's son - my father's clan. Teachers... priests... nobody knew the real reason I was blue and so depressed. I could not speak about a world I saw as bleak. I dared not dream that I could thrive within a soul still-born alive. A counselor I had paid to hear me talk about my greater fear stumbled on the unseen pain I carried every year in vain, until right then. What utter shock that after 30 years o'clock the big hand came around at last. With tools I learned, I now could cast my story in a different light. Nobody understands the blight of silence stealing time to mourn, when souls we love, from us are torn. The truth unearthed, prepared me for what shook me at my very core the year my mother finally died. At 39, this rushing tide around me surged. I kept my head and made my grief my daily bread. Twelve years have passed since '96 when I stared down the River Styx. It's not too late to seek to share by writing what is good and rare about a twisting, rough hewn path through unshed tears and silenced wrath! January 10, 2009

"Yeah. The Devil made me do it!!!" "MMMM.... Could it be Sa - tan?" Brian

Hey Pete, There already is one! It used to be called the way, of course now it is called Christianity!!!! Brian

Thank you George. I recall a discussion I had with a classmate the Seminary I attended; Sacred Heart School of Theology in Milwaukee. He was studying for the diocese of Louisville, KY. He told me his sister had been involved in one of the Ex-gay ministries and finally came to the conclusion that none of it worked. I agree. I know of no one who would choose that as an "option" for their lives. But appearantly their are still numerous denominations who believe it is something that can be changed. Very sad. Brian

I do not desire to muddy the waters of this discussion, but I am curious to know what you (who have been engaging in this conversation) think about the origins of orientation and programs (like the ex-gay movement) designed to change peope, or make them straight. If you think this could really be agitating a bunch of africanized honey bees let me know and I'll drop it. Peace, Brian

What if your thought becomes a way of prayer? A member of my family is beginning the journey of the consequences of his drinking... I fell into that escapist mentality. To pass it all off on God, saddle him with the responsibility for suffering even if it was for "good." Suffering comes in all varieties. Today I find myself called upon to listen to people's expression of their pain. My job is not to "solve" their problems, merely hear them and let them know someone cares. As I watched my mom suffer the consequences of a blood disease that led to her death I found I could not always be there as much as I would have prefered. When she died they were draining her lungs literally every hour. The last person to see her alive was her nurse. I recall from someone else's experience with death and dying, that people will often wait until they are alone to finally let go. Also, I have heard how those who are close to death will look for permission to finally pass on. The romantic notion of someone dying with their loved one's gathered around the bed may make for good stories or movies, but I wonder how much that happens in real life? After 55 years of watching my own very dysfunctional family suffer through the assaults of their own pesonal demons that all I finally learned was the art of "Letting Go." When I was in Al-anon, I heard it frequently as one of the program's primary slogans. I never was able to grasp its meaning with my mind, but my heart got it when I finally grew tired of holding on to my old patterns. Someone in the program told me once that they thought one of the more famous sayings, "God will never give you more than you can handle," was a lot of Horse (you know). They retranslated that saying to "God will never give you more than s/he can handle." That was something my "dis-eased" mind could accept. Empathy implies the journey whereby I walk with someone through their pain and not try to fix anything. Just listen or hold their hand or encourage and give them a hug sometime. Other than that, I really don't know what else to do... Even about my own stuff. Peace, Brian

The only bondage I really see John is to my own "false image" of myself or God. As such my hands are too full to receive what God has to offer. Whatever the "bad things I have done" in this life I see as a consequence or symptoms of my sin. Which comes first the chicken or the egg? For me the Pharisees were a prime example of individuals who were so enamored of their own "righteousness" that they failed to see how they rejected God and failed to recognize Jesus as sent by God. I can not except the idea of Lucifer (or Satan) as the Great Evil many fundamentalists portray him as. He is a "temptor" for sure, but the claim, "The Devil made me do it," is a bit of a cop-out. I think what I am gravitating towards here is the idea of "Progressive" as continued growth and openess to TRUTH wherever I find it. If you think I'm wrong about my take on your point, please educate me. Your brother in Christ, Brian

In MATT. 5:43 – 45 Jesus says, “43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.” If human beings fail to accept what God gives us freely, without condition, what is it that prevents us from receiving his Love? If we do possess FREE WILL where is the “Sin?” If we don’t possess FREE WILL how can we be held responsible for anything? I there is more I can respond to, but I need a little time to reflect your questions and concerns... Your brother in Christ, Brian More later,

John, I made a conscious choice to stir clear of "debates" a very long time ago. I grant you that I am far from being omniscent, which is why I believe in the Unconditional quality of God's Love. I am also convinced that it is up to me to accept or reject that Love. I no longer hold a traditional view of Sin, so I am positive of God's charity toward all of us. I share what I see based on my experience. Since we both cannot literally stand in each other's shoes at the same time, I will accept your view as important to you. I wouldn't try to convince you of anything else when it comes down to it. I do like your image of the cup being poured back into God. How did you arrive at that view? Do we necessarily "die into God?" Or do we find that beyond the veil that seperates the finite world from eternity there is only one reality without limit or border that is God? Sincerely, Brian

Paul, Thank you for your question. Ever since my experience in the fall of 1993 (see my introduction under "55 Year Old Former Seminarian - Now Former Roman Catholic."), God forcefully pulled my crutches away and left me bereft of any consolation or succor. I see now, after all the time that has passed, that it was necessary for me to realize that what I had mistaken as my faith were actually only those "beliefs" I had learned from my parents and more so from the Church. When I finally did receive the Gift of Faith, I began to grow in a relationship with the Lord which is available to all of us. One of the key verses from the New Testament which began to cycle back into my life was Jesus' words, "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." I looked at various different commentaries, but was never wholey satisfied with the explanations. One day I decided to look up the footnote on the bottom of the page where I first read it (MK 13:14 - NRSV). It pointed back to the book of Daniel and the reference to a king that conquered Jerusalem and put up a statue of himself in the Temple in the Holy of Holies. In the past 2 - 3 years, I began to see a further connection to the account in Daniel to King Nebuchadnezzar's dream. I meditated on the vision of the statue with the head of gold, neck and shoulders of silver, etc. and a fuzzy view I held of Heaven and Hell came into sharper focus. What happened to me in the Fall of 1993 was that the idol I called my faith was struck at the feet of clay and iron and the entire edifice crumbled to the ground and was blown away as a fine dust. When Jesus later spoke His name, he established a relationship with me that has grown into a new mountain of the Lord - His presence in my life. From that I saw how much in the past I (and still to this day) I put myself at risk by passing judgment on others. It is from the memory of that fallen idol that I do that. The sad reality was that the image of God that used to guide me in my life had my face stamped upon it. Like so many I remade God into my own image and likeness. If I had succeeded in persisting in living my life that way I could very well have eventually entered heaven maimed. God - the true God - would not have looked like me and I believe I would have rejected His Love. That is because reality didn't operate the way I thought it should. God didn't operate the way I thought He should. In the book of Revelation, John (whichever John he is) writes, "They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!' REV 6:16)." Is it possible to experience God's Love as wrath? It may be, if the soul who faces God has not died to its own image of itself and God. In the response I wrote above to a question or concern by Dutch, I wrote about my concept of "sin." I grant you that I am not a scholar, nor an expert on the Bible. I did learn during my time in Seminary that there are multiple layers to the meaning of various Scripture verses. I do not claim an exclusive, personal revelation to any of this, but believe it to be a way in which the Lord sought to allay my anxieties and fears in the face of those who threw "proof texts" in my face as a way chipping away at my faith in an effort to proselytize me. I am more than willing to carry on a dialogue about this, but keep in mind, I am sharing from my own personal experience. I can only share my story with you. Much of it represents my personal opinion, but it does stem from the Light I walk by. Sincerely, Brian

Hi Patricia, I found this website through the Spong website too. Even though I'm new here, welcome. Brian

George: All "free will" means to me is the ability we all possess to accept or reject God's knock at the door. Will I or won't I answer the door and let Him in. Or will I stand on the other side as He knocks and say or do nothing? I personally think religion of the fundamentalist variety has really muddied the waters on just what God wants from us. I am have come to believe that because God is the essence of Unconditional Love, I believe He created the Universe and us so that He could Give Away that Love. I think is safe to say that the nature of Unconditional Love is that it must, of necessity, give itself away freely without condition. Most churches these days put a ration of requirements and "shoulds" on our receiving that Love. God will give to anyone who asks, no matter what condition that soul may be in. If I am wrong about any of this, I'm in a lot of trouble!!! Brian

I agree with what you stated. I guess I am more weighted toward the "heart" side of things in the way I move in and out of Heaven and Hell. My definition of SIN evolved out of the sentiment you express. In Spanish, there is a preposition spelled the same way. It means "without." When I first saw that, it struck me how perfectly it defined the growing awareness of what sin was/is in my life. Jesus said to pray without ceasing. When I considered how non-existent my prayer life really is I examined how I prayed and and what that meant for my "eternal disposition." Not only in the manner of "formal" prayer, but also in most of my thoughts throughout any given day, I am aware of God's presence and His love in and around me. There has been one important consequence of all of this for my continued spiritual growth; I am now, always have been and will continue to be a sinner until the day I die. It is one of those things innately part of the human experience. It is God's great desire that I spend eternity with Him enjoying his eternal and Unconditional Love. Today, when I am aware of choices and actions - or lack of action - that people traditionally define as sins(s), it reminds of just how much I need to invite God back into my heart. I can never do that enough or perfectly. I cannot be certain about my final place in the hereacter, but I am certain that God wants me to with Him and in Him. Having spent some time involved in Al-anon, I view the idea of confession (in the Catholic Church) as being on a parallel with the 4th and 5th steps of the 12 step programs. To face how frail and faulty I really am is to face how "powerless" I really am and how little or no control I have over a many things - including my sinful nature. I will - at the very least - always forget to include God in my every waking moment for as long as I live. Sin reminds me of that and eventually I remember to turn back jump into prayer of some kind. It doesn't bother me any more that I can't control so much of my life. The first three steps of the 12 steps reminds me: 1) I can't, 2) He can, 3) I think I'll let Him. Brian