Ani-man

That's the thing. we have no positive way of knowing anything we do is or is not already pre-destinied to happen that way. In a way this reminds me of the Star Trek eposide- the pilot called "The cage" where aliens were creating illusions for the crew that were real, taken from their own memories and thoughts. At some point no one had any idea if what they were experiencing was real or just the illusion. I can go back to my pre- teens and consider the different scenarios that would have happened had for example, my parents and I NOT moved to Florida, or had the business they opened there succeeded instead of failed- the failure of which resulted in moving to urban NYC. I can then examine all the different scenarios there that would have totally changed everything in a different course had minor changes been made that would have ultimately changed the course of "history" in my childhood. Had the business succeeded in Florida had my dad's partner not pulled out for example, I might be living right now in Florida owning that business and have totally different interests than I do today. Other events occurred in succession that resulted in my moving to the West coast, something as simple as a classified ad for a rental place is all that resulted in moving to the town I did. I can follow the paths or branches on the tree if you will and plainly see that if "A" didn't happen "B" wouldn't have happened as a result, I would have a different career, home, friends and everything else as a result. Most things we have interests in started in childhood, I can trace back my interest in antiques, art and crafts and collecting things to before age 8, I can trace my interest to taking things apart, motors, machines putting them together again to before age 6, and in opera, classical music and congregational singing with organ to before the same age because I distinctly remember listening to it on the radio but didn't know what it was called. So to a degree we have choices on many things but I think it's more the direction of them than creating them, for example- the interest in antiques and old things is pretty broad, the interest is there in early childhood, but it's not till later that the person decides they prefer to seriously be collecting stamps instead of coins, or fine wedgewood china instead of Rembandt paintings. It also depends on the person's opportunities and exposures, obviously someone born with no dad, mom on welfare, living in a trailer park is not likely to get into collecting Ming Dynasty pottery, but their interest might be channeled into readily available postage stamps or baseball cards, someone born into a family like Bill Gates on the other hand would have the opportunity and the means to buy Ming Dynasty pieces, but both person's collecting interest or obsession started at the same root. As far as being held accountable for actions, I don't know, aside from maybe murder having a penalty I think the whole concept is frivolous and capricious, I mean here we are, one planet in the vast universe that has as many stars in the visible sky as grains of sand on the beach, where there could be thousands of "earths" out there with living beings on them, out of the whole of everything and on this planet are we really so self absorbed to believe we are so important and that everything we do is, that if I pocket that 5 cents change I was overpaid instead of returning it that anyone is really going to care?? Or that some day I'm going to be "punished" for it?? Everything on earth passes away, none of it can be taken when you die, not money, gold, your car, clothes, almost all of this stuff is just vanity, meaningless and temporary, money is the root of all evil as they say too, so would a God even REALLY care about any of this garbage like someone stole your umbrella at the office or swiped your SNickers bar from your drawer and ate it? I would have a difficult time imagining your umbrella or a snickers bar is worth someone's life or eternal soul or whatever condemned to torture forever.

I sent this to a friend today in a longer email but thought I'd post this portion here. ...Just the other day I thought of a good topic to bring up, the one where people bring up "Gods plan" and interfering with this "plan" by certain acts or maybe even non-action. Think about this; You take an all knowing all seeing creator of all things, your entire life and everything you do or will do would already be known to the creator before you were even born, so with that in mind one could take a really heated issue like abortion and one side will say it interferes with "Gods plan," however, it was already known well in advance that person "A" would cause action "B" resulting in the abortion act, so was THAT God's plan or was it the plan that person "C" would suddenly step in and stop it by offering $20,000 to adopt the baby instead? Would God allow the baby to be killed just so person "A" could have a "free choice" in the matter?? Doesn't that seem like using the baby as a pawn or means to an end? How about the case in the news of the 9 year old girl? certainly God knew this individual was going to abduct and kill her, so did he have a plan for her life but the individual stepped in and altered that? this suggests God not knowing all... or did he plan from the very start that the 9 year old would never make it past age 9 so that the individual now charged with murder could have his "free choice" and suffer consequences as a result? this suggests a thought out "plan" with predicted results. What if someone woke up in that house and caught the individual before he could abduct the girl, would that have been "the plan" or would it have been "interfering with Gods plan" that the girl be killed? Certainly "the plan" was already thought out and whatever the outcome is in our eyes, it was already pre- destined to occur exactly as it did whether or not it seems like a random event or not. What we think of as "free choice" to do something or not, may in fact have been already well considered out pre-planning, how could it not be? if it wasn't, then this would mean the creator of all things does NOT know all and see all. I'm thinking there really is NO "plan" and if there was, we would have no way to know if any certain actions or non actions were part of that plan or not and thus- interfering with it! It would then be presumptious of us to assume something we do is somehow "interfering" with some plan, to suggest we can or do suggests we have a lot more "power" than we think. Thom

Re the barter system... Believe it or not bartering is an an IRS taxable transaction. the feds have even that locked up, so if you were to do bartering as a means around the system you would still have to come up with cash to pay the tax bill; Topic 420 - Bartering Income Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber doing repair work for a dentist in exchange for dental services. The fair market value of goods and services exchanged must be included in the income of both parties. Income from bartering is taxable in the year in which you receive the goods or services. Generally, you report this income on Schedule C, Profit or Loss from Business Form 1040. If you failed to report bartering income on returns you have already filed, you should correct this by filing an amended return, Form 1040X (PDF), for each year involved. For information on amended returns, refer to Topic 308.

The problem with the doomsday scenario of global warming is, this planet has had many many such cycles, alternating with ice ages, the Great Lakes in fact were formed by retreating/melting glaciers! So we know there were glaciers as far South as that. The trouble is humans think in terms of today, tomorrow, next week, last month and on a plant billions of years old 100 years is nothing! What we consider "normal" weather we enjoy today is likely an anomaly- the peaking of a warming cycle which will eventually reverse back into the next ice age. Granted, there is evidence the warming is happening at a FASTER rate, but that's all- just faster and not warming just because of people. One has to keep on mind there are many natural processes that ALSO produce pollution and the like- forest fires from lightening strikes, naturally burning coal seams underground, volcanoes, and even the meteriorite that hit in Arizona and others have produced effects. The biggest was likely the one they found evidence of that helped form what is now the Gulf of Mexico- a massive area in the SW portion that has provided evidence of a planet shaking impact that would have thrown millions of tons of debris, dust into the air and massive forest fires. One year I think it was 1809 was dubbed the year of no summer, a volcano produced so much debris and fires, plus sulphur and all the rest of the gases they spew- that it literally shaded the sun, crops failed and there was no summer. That was a direct measurable/immediate global effect from one natural event and there have been many of those, the crud circled the planet for a long time after that eruption. Another issue is, all plants, grass, trees, and growing things including weeks use carbon dioxide the way we use oxygen, and they exhale oxygen, so the more of the carbon dioxide spewed into the air the better the plants like it and grow faster. One only needs to see how self correcting that is, more plants due to more carbon dioxide and warmer temperatures will produce MORE and bigger plants which in turn use up more of the carbon dioxide and release more oxygen. Carbon dioxide is their FOOD! Moving on, the entire human social and economic system the way it is, is bound to collapse- for it is all based on ever increasing populations which of course cannot happen in a finite environment! Our entire economy is based on this, SS is based on more young workers paying in to pay out increasing benefits to more people, you now have or will soon I believe 3 workers paying in for each retiree, a few decades ago it was more like 30 workers! Thus it is doomed to total collapse. The economy is geared for ever increasing production and output, more goods, services, products and counting on those quarter year growth figures. All of this depends on ever increasing energy sources to produce and move goods, we are reaching the peak output of world petroleum to the point where one refinery going out totally disrupts the markets globally and prices rise astronomically from $1.10 a gallon of gas to $2.50 in a matter of weeks. The world's supply of easy to find easy to get at oil is exhausted, most oil fields have already been found, what's left is what they contain and what can be extracted thru ever increasingly difficult and expensive processes like refining tar out of sand, all at a bigger environmental cost as well as higher retail price. What happens to the economy when gas is $10 a gallon? EVERYTHING moves by rail, truck or plane at some point in it's journey, be it your new dress or the replacement water heater you bought for the house. I have seen huge buildings only 20 or so years old demolished to make way for more "modern" buildings. The Seattle King Dome is one example, a HUGE sports stadium demolised because it was "outdated". I know of an 18 story University building in the UK being demolished for that reason, it was built in 1968 and is massive concrete, steel and glass, all those resources used up, wasted and thrown away along with all the energy required to make it in 1968, transport it to the site, built it, now tear it down, landfill it. This all too is unsustanable and doomed to collapse. We had an oil shortage in 1973, gas lines a mile long, rationing, it was a wake-up call, lots of talk about making changes, but did we? somewhat, yes we reduced speed limits to 55, we made cars get 40-50 MPG Instead of the former 10-12 in the 70's, yet we are importing and using MORE oil than ever! Why? Sure we get 4x as much mileage from a gal of gas now, but we ALSO added 4x as many CARS!, and what's more, people are replacing these $25,000 machines every 4-5 years! Detroit can't exist or sustain itself without ever increasing consumption of NEW cars, it's grown into a huge top-heavy industry and THAT"S the problem there! It can't be sustained, it's also doomed to collapse It's not global warming we need to worry about, it's our economy and way we as a society have set everything up, and with an 8 TRILLION dollar deficit there is no way that can keep going, but we are rocketing to the poorhouse and like the person with a credit card, eventually the payments made will not pay the interest alone and you default. At some point when the payment is "$100" and the interest alone is "$125" this too will collapse and it won't be pretty when it does! China and other foreign countries have all been buying US debts and providing the loans we all as a nation are paying on- the 8 Trillion dollars, and if any one of them decide to dump their notes or call them in for payment we are in BIG trouble. At this point China could collapse our economy if they wanted to. Far more filthy pollution was produced in the 1800's with the burning of dirty coal that was used by the billions of tons for running railroads, steam engines, power plants and heating, if anything THAT did the most damage and it's a done deal. Global warming prevention is too little too late, nothing we can do about it and taking the piddling little bit of freon propellent out of a can of hairspray as a corrective "fix" is way too little, too late! THE problem is not that cars are not getting 70 MPG, or that your can of hairspray is destroying ozone, the problem is there are too many PEOPLE, and every person so to speak has a home that has to be heated, electrified, a car, food they eat, waste they dispose of, water they use for laundry, drinking, washing etc THIS is THE problem 100% You could make a car that gets 150 mpg but if you add 4x as many MORE cars in the next 30 years, the savings is gone. If the world population was half what it is now, there wouldn't BE a problem right now.

It's actually hilarious but interesting! http://www.thebricktestament.com/

I have no doubt this was the case, either accidental, naive translations or by subversive design As you noted, it has been used to justify slavery as well as subversion of women, it has been used for a lot of negative things including justification of cold blooded murder- the Salem witch trials come to mind as do thousands of hangings and other blood-shed. So too does the Rev Weir case and others like it I still find it amazing how people or groups of people can justify "x" or "y" (including cold blooded murder and brutal slaughter of animals) based on an old collection of writings assembled into book that was translated from obscurity, has no verified written proof of origins, which is clouded in mystery and written in pecululiar style, with metaphors and all the rest If it comes from the dead sea scrolls or is supposedly verified by them- I have seen photos of these scrolls, and much of the original leather used for the "paper" is rotted away or otherwise missing, trying to read these scrolls which are in Hebrew I guess are like trying to read a chinese language Miriam Webster's Dictionary after it has been blasted by a shotgun repeatedly, soaked with gas and burned, and then run thru a paper shreader- huge blocks of text are totally missing and what is there is full of holes. When you consider that altering ONE word on a page of text can change the meaning of the entire page, and that something as simple as lack of or incorrect addition of commas or punctuations can do the same, who really knows what the original REALLY said. Even if we knew what the original said, where is the proof of it's origins and why it was written? "Inspired by" is NOT the same as "written BY", "inspired by" is like reading a 2005 autobiography written by Joe Smith about President Washington's life birth to death, "written by" is Washington's directly penned journals passed down thru his own family with verifications all the way as to where it was and in whose hands each transfer. Which one is more accurate? We can't even get accurate records and information about Christopher Columbus, a new set of findings has revealed a number of inaccuracies and totally wrong history and this was only 600 years ago not 2000! The Bible has rabbits chewing their cud and insects walking on four FEET, in addition a number of dates of events are even wrong to the point where one book contradicts another, with blatant errors on things so easy to confirm, I can't help but wonder what else is wrong, could it be "no" was once yes but changed? Could it be "man lay with man as man lay with woman is an abomination" have been "man lay with man as man lay with woman wont produce babies" As far as sexual issues go, in the entire book there is only ONE reference I found that says anything about bestiality and it's in Leviticus, yet homosexuality supposedly has several. Supposedly the violator AND the animal were to be killed, in light of the fact that animals cannot possibly produce offspring as once was feared- then killing the animal was ludicrous, but then God would have known no"monsterous" offspring could result so what would the point be of killing the animal Following that logic then one could conclude homosexuality was worse than bestiality?? how much sense does that make? Here's a photo of one scroll; http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/images...es/commun-b.jpg

Her DVD's are there!!!!!!!!!! I looked at that teach site, looks like they have quite an interesting variety of courses, including science, math and so forth. You should have many hours of fun with the DVD's you received. As for me, my incense is almost here!!! I don't know about anyone else here but I LOVE Frankincense & Myrrh incense and tend to buy a bundle of sticks and use them, and then procrastinate ordering. Well I finally decided to order again last week, I ordered 100 sticks of Frankincense & Myrrh and 100 sticks of eucalyptus and they are arriving Tuesday. Does anyone here collect religious art and the like? I have a few really nice pieces, like this pedistal from a station of the cross removed from an Omaha church, it's 31" long, looks gorgeous on my wall; I also have an old gothic pew from a Methodist church in Phili, and Agnus Dei lamb plaque that came from an altar, and a pair of very nice brass ornate candle sticks I recently found a really nice angel sculpture I might buy, she is about 29" tall, about 80 years old;

Well one of my forums uses this same exact Invision board software though a previous version of it, took some getting used to not using html coding as *I* am used to, it can get confusing when there are multiple layers of quoted text unless broken down more specifically Yes, I read the penguin article and saved it thanks!

Ah yes, the old shock therapy "treatment", I happen to know a fellow who in his teens long ago was caught in the barn messing with a cow, grandfather had him "treated" (I don't know all the details) but part of it included shock treatments. The teen is now in his 60's and had permanent neural damage from the shock treatments. The "treatment" failed anyway.

Animals (mammals anyway) have ALL the same body parts humans do- including females having a clitorus. I forget what human sexuality book it is in, maybe a Kinsey book, they compared canines to humans and included charts and graphs after wiring subjects up with heart monitors and other devices and noting down the readings during sexual activity. The readings of the physiological responses before during and after sex were nearly identical. There are many documented instances of animal homosexuality as well as cross-species. I have seen two male donkeys engaging in anal intercourse taking turns being the "female" GREAT article on Sfgate, I saved it thanks!

My news alert sent me this url to a rather interesting relevent story; http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=..._id=72001&rfi=6 Additionally Nelson Mandella's son dies of aids in another story below this one. Personally I have no problem with the relationship if both persons are consenting adults, but it's like the gay marriage issue. Some important highlights; ===================== Curtain drops on incest drama The legal saga of two former Pine Plains' residents, charged with violation of a 100-year-old law, has come to resolution. In 2004, Charles Thomas, 44, and Nanci Latrell-Thomas, 29, were arrested on a number of charges, including two Class E felonies, each for incest, and filing a false document. Both felonies are punishable by one to four years in jail. The Sheriff's Department alleged that Thomas and Latrell-Thomas are, in fact, uncle and niece, and had been engaging in a sexual relationship as part of their marriage. They were married May 2001. In New York State, sexual contact between an uncle and a niece is considered incest under Criminal Procedures Law, Section 255.25. in the last four years, there have been 43 cases of incest, prosecuted to sentencing, in the state. Consanguinity laws vary by state. Both Thomas and Latrell-Thomas have since left the state to live in Texas, according to a confidential source. But, in Texas, it's also illegal for an uncle and niece to be married, whether full blood or half blood. "Uncle/niece relationships are very common in some cultures and are not considered 'wrong,' " Bennett said. "You and I might find incest repulsive because of our teachings. "When they enacted these laws, maybe they made these decisions on considerations other than genetics," said Smith. Smith said laws against acts, such as incest, bestiality and sodomy, are based in Judaeo/Christian belief and English common law. "This law was put into place because of a power differential," "The incest statute is a 100-year old law, perhaps based on faulty genetic research," said Farley. "On a case-by-case basis, a jury could find there is no problem with this relationship," Other sex crimes Adultery, a class B misdemeanor, is still illegal, but not often prosecuted. Until three years ago, when the law was repealed by the state Legislature, consensual sodomy was a class B misdemeanor. =================== http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/06/...ain665228.shtml Important highlights; More than 5 million of South Africa's 45 million people are infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS, more than in any other country. An estimated 600 die of AIDS-related complications every day. Mbeki's government has been criticized for its sluggish response to the crisis and for courting dissident theorists who question the cause of AIDS. Until this year, the government refused to provide life-prolonging anti-retroviral drugs through the public health system, citing concerns about their safety and cost.

I thought this case was interesting; http://www.britwitch.com/pages/history/theweirs.html The Weirs of Edinburgh At first no one would believe old Major Weir, when, in 1670, he told them that he had committed incest with his sister Jane from the time that she was sixteen until she was fifty, "when he loathed her for her age," and with Margaret Bourdon, the daughter of his dead wife; fornication with his serving maid Bessie Weems, over a period of twenty years; and bestiality with mares and cows, especially with his own mare; and finally, that all his adult life, he had practised witchcraft. There were reasons for this disbelief. Weir was a respected member of a very strict Presbyterian sect, and recognised far and wide as a religious man. At the same time, the members of this sect had every reason for wishing to avoid the terrible scandal in which they must become involved if his stories got abroad, and particularly if they were proved in the courts. But despite their sympathy with him in his affliction – they believed him mad, as he undoubtedly was he would not cease from his self-accusation; and the matter was taken out of their hands when one of their own ministers, distracted by the imminent danger with which the sect was threatened, somewhat foolishly sought the advice of The Provost of Edinburgh, Sir Andrew Ramsay, Lord Abbotshall. The Provost too could not believe that any human being could be guilty of the crimes of which Weir accused himself, and like so many others concluded that the Major must be mad. Sensibly, therefor, his first act was to send physicians to examine Weir. It was when they returned and reported that the Major was sane that the Provost could not avoid taking legal action.

Here is an article which should give some pause; Wednesday, November 06, 2002 Sheep may provide clues about homosexuality, scientists say Gay sheep that mate only with other rams exhibit different brain structures from "straight" sheep, a finding that may shed light on human sexuality, U.S. researchers said Monday. The differences are similar to those seen in some gay humans but probably go only a small way toward explaining the causes of different sexual orientations, according to the team at Oregon Health and Science University. "We are not trying to explain human sexuality by this study," Charles Roselli, a professor of physiology and pharmacology who led the study, said in a telephone interview. "Whether this is a big component of what contributes in humans, that's still debatable." Working with a team at the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Sheep Experiment Station in Dubois, Ida., Roselli's team studied 27 sheep--10 ewes, nine rams that mated only with other rams, and eight rams that mated only with females. The "gay" sheep are strongly homosexual, Roselli said. "They don't pair-bond," he said, "but they are [gender] exclusive. They don't court or mate with females. They only court and mate with males." First the scientists watched the sheep to be sure of their behavior--something that cannot be done with humans. Then they took apart their brains. "There had been reports in humans that a certain area of the hypothalamus, the preoptic area...was usually larger in males than females," Roselli said. This area was also found to be larger in heterosexual humans than in homosexual men. But the researchers had studied the brains of men who had died of AIDS complications, which meant that the disease or the drugs used to treat it could have had an effect on the brain. "With an animal model you can be more selective and do more controlled studies," Roselli said. The sheep had similar differences in their brains, the researchers told attendees at a meeting in Orlando, Fla., of the Society for Neuroscience. "In a sense we confirmed what been found in humans," Roselli said. The brain cells in this area also manufactured greater amounts of an enzyme called aromatase in the heterosexual rams. Aromatase is involved in the action of testosterone, the so-called male hormone. This does not mean the gay rams had less testosterone in their brains, Roselli stressed. "It is not necessarily the activational effect of the hormone," he said. Other types of neurons are probably active--they just have not found them yet. No differences in testosterone relating to sexuality have been found either in the sheep or in humans, he said. "It's not that gay men have lower levels of testosterone," he said. "And it's not the case with these sheep." Roselli believes that exposure to hormones while still in the mother's womb may affect a fetus's brain and cause eventual differences in sexual preference and that more experiments will aim to show whether this is true.

Des I think you have been watching too many "Star Trek" episodes I think there are probably other planets with life on them, statistically the odds say there are many, but what about each planet's current progress in time as it relates to the life thereon? Humanity as we know it hasn't existed but a fraction of a second out of the history of Earth, Mars could have had life it certainly had water and apparently oceans millions of years ago, any life there would have evolved and died out way back then- long before Earth life as we know it. We send out radio signals towards other planets, but unless life there had progressed to have the ability to "read" the signals they wont get them, and they woudl have to only be 200 years behind us in science progress to miss the signals totally. 200 years advanced and maybe our signals would be so primitive they would have nothing to pick them up with. Here's what I mailed Des a while back, sort of related; Some of the rock/cave drawings appear to depict some very odd things that look like men in space suits and flying objects that could be depictions of aircraft. Two issues that begs explanations, the first is the rock/cave drawings as well as ancient pictographs in the desert which depict animals etc but can only be seen what they are from high up in the air, at ground level you can't see them, go in a helicopter and the scenes come to life, perfectly scaled and "drawn out" though primitive of course. The other is in Revelations and elsewhere, detailed descriptions of "wheels in the sky" that could move in any direction rapidly and made a horrific noise like a lot of waterfalls. They are further described as having "eyes all around". There is also a description of "Cherubim" who can move similarly. Then the New Jerusalem is described, basically math conversion shows it would be a 1500 mile cube, it mentions 7 "foundations" gates made of a single large pearl, transparent gold, adorned with colored gemstones and needing no light from the sun as it comes from within. Ok so maybe I've watched one too many episodes of Star Trek with Captain Kirk, but from the text descriptions I can only visualize some sort of alien ships, call them UFO's if want to cause the Govt and media would! The "eyes all around" the rim of the "wheel" sounds a lot like portholes, the Cherubim's "wings" which logistically don't make sense could have been the only thing those primitive people could describe as a motive force for an alien visitor wearing some kind of device- call it a jet pack or whatever. The primitive people could only fathom for flight- bird wings, so that is how they could best describe it. The 7 "foundations" on the New Jerusalem- floors or levels? transparent gold- they use this on astronaut's helmet visors to protect against UV, adorned with gemstones- some kind of lights maybe from portholes or running lights? You watch a 747 land at night and it can look like a UFO with all those lights... Light from within- some kind of generation system that provided lights like we have today? You drop a 747, a jet pack, a laser or flashlight, maybe a helicopter back in time 2000 years in front of people who make fire rubbing two sticks together and live in mud huts and how would anyone explain them other than in such terms and descriptions of them? One silly explanation for the wheels was "Oh those were God's chariot wheels" Chariot wheels?? you mean like the Romans had?? but the Roman's wheels didn't have "eyes all around" and then it also begs the question of why would God need a CHARIOT and wouldn't that be rather slow? why would wheels be needed in deep space where there is nothing for them to turn on? So I think the chariot explanation is out... The New Jerusalem, first thought would be why would God need basically a space ship to travel in? and a 1500 mile cube is not very large relatively speaking for a "kingdom" or much else. We still can't explain how the pyramids were built or fathom how primitive people with nothing somehow managed to cut and move over 5 million blocks of stone over some distances and then haul them up- including some huge ones I recall were estimated to weigh something like 65,000 pounds each and for the CEILING of a chamber, and how they fit so well a credit card can't slide between them. With so many religions around the planet I have a problem believing any single one is 100% correct, they all have some form of deity/creator in common, call him Budha, God, Jehovah, Allah or whatever. The Christian religion claims the others wont get to go to heaven, yet oddly enough the Muslims say basically the same thing about non Muslims! Then you have reincarnation and all the rest- and every one of them has their own good books, writings, scriptures, beliefs and are convinced THEY are right and everyone else is wrong. I think the ancients probably saw things they couldn't fathom, maybe visitors from another place or time- call them Martians or Captain Kirk and Mr Spock landing in a probe or transporter beam, and much of all of these religions were based on all of this, it certainly seems to fill in missing pieces and makes some sense, a lot more than Noah and a huge flood.

Hi Jimmie, last post before I crash for the evening Re: charities/groups, the forum pest posted an URL to an anti gay site, I won't post the clickable URL and give them traffic but it had "amazing foon..." in it. The post was edited out or deleted but not before I went to look. I was appalled, typical of such sites- they cite the 1/10th of the WORST cases as examples representing the other 99.9% It is like highlighting rapists and convicted child molestors and their stories to show and make the claim that all men are like them. They went so far as to put up photos of colon cancer tumors with the claim that these were caused by gay anal sex and that this is why the whole homosexuality act is bad! But gee, women and heterosexuals get colon cancer too, it's very common, common enough too there's a whole industry built up that sells colostomy equipment As if thats not bad enough, another subpage there not only cites but links to an anonymously created informal "survey" conducted years ago by someone on an alt.sex usenet newsgroup who in no way has ANY medical, mental health or any other credentials or training! He simply posted questions for people to respond to and then created charts and graphs and extracted dubious numbers from about 100 people. Some of the interest includes were ridiculous at best, and entered as a joke at worst- sexual interest in such outlandishly improbably things as Dolphins, whales, lions and bears, these were added to the charts and graphs by the way. This would be like you putting up a question survey in here about the planet Mars and it's internal composition and atmospheric makeup, extracting the responses and then publishing them on your web site claiming this is how Mars was originally formed, and then someone quoting text off your site and linking to your page saying this is how Mars was formed! Bed time!

Hi, forum seems to load S L O W right now for some reason, I should mention from the start that I am not gay (tho I had gay contacts in my teens) I am in a whole other rhelm most people don't understand. But I'm a Les/bi/gay friendly who feels the Govt, church, and busy-bodies should stay the heck out of people's bedrooms period end! I don't care what people do in private it's not up to me to judge them or tell them what they should or shouldn't do. My hetero dad married 50 years same woman owned two gay bars in the 70's in midtown Manhattan and all I ever heard from him growing up was how his gay customers who worked for fortune 500 companies and major corps had to hide because coming out was basically fatal to their jobs/careers. When he introduced me to customers on the occasion I happened to be there before opening and someone stopped by, it was always "son, this is my good friend MR <name>" I also worked for a couple of gay employers, never any problems.

Hi Aletheia, Thank you for the welcome Not to worry, I asked them to close my account and unbookmarked the site as well. If it was my forum you can be sure that individual's ISP would have received a certified letter in mail from my attorney with a cease and desist from tresspassing, and the problem would have been taken care of immediately not allowed to go on for over 100 posts! At least 3 people I know about left the forum over that person. Hi again Des, nice to find you too Bingo, I think very few gay people ever just "convert" to straight, they were either bi to begin with and "shut off" their gay half, or they are fooling themselves. Groups? do you men those two "charities" the person posted several times about being so great? Here is what I found on these two who claim they are SOOOO successful at converting gay people; I did a little look-see into this Exodus charity, here's what I found, and I know somewhere I have bookmarked a search that kicks back more details such as SALARIES and overhead- in other words WHERE the money goes, but according to the finacial records, this charity only has a 50% deductibility limit, and in one search their income was less than $25,000 under one of their names; 'Exodus Global Alliance encompasses Africa, Asia Pacific, Brazil, China, Europe, Middle East, India, and Latin America with the International Office located in Toronto, Canada Organization Name: Exodus Global Alliance City: Canton, MI (Until December 2008) Code: None - A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation. EXODUS GLOBAL ALLIANCE CANTON , MI 48187 EIN: 20-0568425 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because its income is less than $25,000. It is a 501©(03) public charity. Under another of their names- and by the way I'm wary of charities that do these peculiar sudden name changes and have multiple corp names... I find this for the latest figures- 2002, and their total assets are barely $82,000, expenses exceed income and liability is almost as high as their total assets- doesn't look like they are doing too well for an INTERNATIONAL world-wide charity; Organization Name: Exodus International North America Inc. Code: None - A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation. Fiscal Year Ending 2002 Revenue: $677,125 Expenses: $795,580 Assets: $82,017 Liabilities: $72,163 Exodus was apparently founded in 1973 according to their history page, so they are not new as an explanation for the poor financials- they have had 30+ years to "get it right" Next I looked into this "NARTH" and they are even worse; Parents And Friends Of Ex-gays Inc Fort Belvoir, VA 22060 Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays(PFOX)is a non-profit organization dedicated to supporting the ex-gay community and those families affected by homosexuality. EIN: 52-2120550 This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because its income is less than $25,000. It is a 501©(03) public charity. Information in this report was supplied by the nonprofit organization within the last two years. Fiscal Year ending 2003; Revenue: $37,168 Expenses: $26,161 Assets: $19,746 Liabilities: $0 I wouldn't imagine a web site would be much of a liability, and their total assets are less than $20,000. That indicates they are likely run out of someone's house on a PC with a web site/answering service, no bricks/mortar offices. The "expenses" include salaries, overhead , and fundraising costs. Looks more like a cute little tax shelter to me. Proof positive that a fancy web site with "success stories" "testimonials" photos of happy "clients" means little when you do some financials on these outfits and get the REAL story. That is a real puzzle but says in the Bible a few things about owning slaves as though it perfectly acceptable. I'm wondering with the errors I found on dates, rabbits chewing their non existing "cud", insects having 4 feet and so forth, if this word "slave" might not have been mistranslated or has more meanings and maybe should have been something akin to an employee or domestic (paid) servant? What do you think? Someone like a maid, nanny etc would make more sense than owning another person to work for free and do whatever you say. I agree with you on the UCC forum, it presents a poor image for them now with the 100+ posts against gay people. I agree and have read on the other forum some good posts about this having meant the condemnation was against loveless sex where the other person is objectified, prostitution, rape and so forth. I don't have a problem with family members (incest between cousins etc) provided they are adults in a consentual thing, I even found a news article of an arrest of two people recently for incest, both are adults and lived together for years, their undoing was forgery of some papers to obtain a marriage license... Anal anything is gross to me, it's not something I ever liked the idea of or wanted to engage in, the smell, the bad bacteria like Ecoli, Hepatitus etc. The person on the other forum seemd to think gay people ALWAYS engage in this as he kept bringing it up, but I believe it's not as common as oral is. I know gay people who DON'T do anal anything with anyone. Our forum pest on the other forum ignored the FACTS that HIV is growing and at epidemic proportions NOT among gay men in the USA but among HETEROSEXUAL WOMEN in AFRICA!! Bush just spent $500 million on vaccines for African women so as to help reduce the numbers of INFANTS born with HIV. It's also growing big time in Europe. The forum pest also kept claiming UCC churches were closing at a much higher rate after accepting gay people than before, he seemd to ignore that facts I presented showing churches of ALL denominations closing world-wide at higher numbers- the lawsuits closed many and are closing more, dwindling memberships in huge older buildings that now need expensive repairs, handicap retrofitting, asbestos abatement etc are combining into one building and closing one. A church not far from me was in the news as closing down because they can't find a pastor, it's a tiny town of maybe 100 people and no one wants to move there to pastor a little church with at best 40 people in it. Other churches are closing and being demolished for stadium parking lots, urban renewal etc, I can provide the proof of how many are closing- a quick browse of web stores for any of half a dozen church salvage outfits will show HUGE warehouses full of pews, stained glass, tabernacles, carved wood, statues, marble memorials, credence tables, furnishings, altarware, whole altars, sanctuary lamps and more; www.kingrichards.com They have photos of their sales store; http://www.kingrichards.com/store/index.ht...l?section=store Photos of them stripping a number of churches here; http://www.kingrichards.com/projects/index...ection=projects more; http://www.churchantiques.com/ http://www.church-furnishings.com/ I read that 10,000 churches in the UK have closed, I didn't think there were that many in the entire country... http://property.timesonline.co.uk/article/...34613_2,00.html CHURCH SALVAGE A large proportion of salvage comes from ecclesiastical buildings. During the 20th century about 10,000 churches and chapels were sold off by the Church of England, Catholic and Methodist authorities, and approximately 70 churches are still put on the UK market every year. Large city churches get turned into flats while small rural ones frequently change into family homes

Hi BeachofEden, Interesting posts! I was on the UCC forums for a while but left for a few reasons, one being a troll repeatedly changed names with new accts and posted anti gay bogus or biased "statistics", comments, political statements about gay people in all caps in the subject lines etc etc The admins would eventually remove him but almost all of his vile posts remain, I just got tired of posting and then reading his immediate reply below mine or other posts condemning gays, onserting links to two shady "non profits" who alleged they can "convert" gay people etc At one point I ran some financials on the two groups and posted the dismal facts showing they were rubbish, and one likely being run by one individual on a PC at home- total income for the year was under $26,000 in donations. The other wasn't much better and it's an International group I thought the UCC all welcome theme and commercial was good and was the main reason I joined that forum- to support that, I wasn't planning to stay long but in the process I met a few really good friends I keep in contact with via email instead of the board I was raised Catholic as a kid but I am agnostic, and a devotee of a fairly rare alternate sexual practice, I have a few problems with religious concepts, scriptures, people using selective parts of scriptures as a weapon, and then hiding behind the text when challenged by stating; "It's GODS word" hypocritical people who say homosexuality is a sin, but convieniently ignore that "sin" includes adultry, divorce, working on the Sabbath, eating pork, stealing of ANY kind, cursing one's parents and muiltitudes of things that occur daily everywhere. They cite that homosexuality is sin, but then ignore the written directives to stone to death children who curse their parents, adulterers, abortionists etc. So I don't know...every religion has it's books, scriptures, beliefs, history, characters and Gods, I don't believe any single one is 100% right over all the rest to the exclusion of the others. AFter all, Muslims for example believe the same sort of things Christians do and call all other religion followers the unbelievers who won't get to "heaven"- just as we claim they and other non believers won't Thats it for now I guess, just call me "Thom"