JenellYB

Neither "natural" nor "normal" are really valid criteria for determining what is optimal, positive, or good, or the opposite. Many things that may be "natural" are deleterious, even dangerous and threatening to health, well-being, even life. Diease causing pathogens are natural. Toxins are found thoughout nature. "Normal" merely means conformed to the norm, a common standard. An IQ of 100 is the precise norm, or normal. One with an IQ of 130 is as far from the norm, as "abnormal", as is one of 70. Anamoly doesn't imply inferiority or dysfunction. "Normal" in the context of social norms, which are human structures, may include many things not neccesarily healthy or conductive to well-being. To difference between such "anamolies", deviations from the norm from those that may be designated "abnormal", whether in biology or considerations of mental health, the determining criteria are function/dysfunction, positive/negative effect, comfort/distress, benefit/harm, etc. Homosexuality was removed from psychological.psychiatric classification as "abnormal" because the condtio or state itself does not inherently create any of those negative affects, on the individual or others. The only "harm" involved was the suffering of distress through social attitudes. The pathologies listed above generally would not pass that criteria for at the very least, lack of harm. At least three of them involve violation of, toward another. In the case of pedopjilia, even if the child is 'seduced', they are not psychologically competent to give consent, and that is reflected in our societies standards and laws. While some have argued incest is an exception, but it has negative effects and deleterious consequences, as well. In addition to the increased risk of birth defects and deformities of offspring, it also undermines the social order crucial to family stability and well-being. While one might argue conception could be avoided through birth control, that would add both a burden of condtion, how do you enforce it? As well as there being no 100% reliable birth control. Some argue the incest restriction should exclude only under age children (pedophilia) ignores the often fragile trust relationships of even of-age family members. Even say, a daughter, reaching age 18, is both still vulnerable to parental authority relationships with men in their family, and, the mother/wife of a man who starts eying his daughter with lust by the time she's 15, just biding the time until she's of legal age, to indulge in the act, doesn't do much for a stable family situation. Perhaps in some primitive culture, harm toward others is not so well developed a social concern, but in ours, it is, and its a very important one. Its why any of us can walk around feeling reasonably safe in most situations in our society. Many of us take that for granted, don't realize that is a social luxury. On many cultures past and even some present, people cannot travel with any degree of safety without some kind of defense, protection, either weapons, or in company of suffcient others to mount defense against attack. to make rape socially acceptable would mean females having to be kept under lock and key and protected at all times, lest a man jump her where ever he finds her unguarded. Rape, what we would call rape, IS accepted in some societies, even still, under certain specified social situatuons, such as where marriages may be arranged without the female's consent or cooperation in consumation. In some societies, some women of low status are ever at risk of rape that will not be prosecuted, is allowed to some men in a society. I don't think any of us are ready to move toward that, as far as the world has come away from it. Jenell

Spirit in the Sky was my late sister's choice for the closing song at her funeral. She had been a hippie, was always a free spirit, it was so "her", totally appropriate. And in its lyrics, is echoed the title line of "What a Friend I have in Jesus" which was also one of the songs she had chosen. Jenell

As i feel about baptism, or any other of the rituals we may have brought out of our backgrounds, any "meaning" is what we appply to it. For some of us, such as baptism still holds some content of meaning, signficance, to certain elements of our faith. I do not beleive any ritual or ceremony or cited words have any power of any kind in themselves, and that to make any such thing an "ordinance" beyond mere human valuation is idolatry. No ritual has any meaning or power in itself. I personally do not believe water baptism makes one whit of difference in our 'salvation' or anything else. I gave above a scriptural response to the question that was asked, does the bible support the idea of water baptism as neccesary to 'salvation." And, i think it is a valid and effective one. But human valuation IS a real and valid reason to continue to engage in, respect, some ritual or ceremony that is meaningful to US." Where for us, personally or socially, some ritual or ceremony still holds a content of meaning that is important for us, still holds symbolic signficance in something for us, it has value and reason for observance. Just as we know, rationally, all the ceremony with which we surround such life events as entering marriage, funeral services for the dead, have no power or value in anything of themselves. But they still carry signficanct content of meaning for many of us. In that sense, the are still valid. I've had two baptisms in my life, the first at age 12, the second at age 50. The first was terribly dissappointing. I really beleived it was somehow really going th bring some kind of change in me, for me. I had great anticipation for its power to do so, and it was quite a let down when nothing really happened. My second, however, was a very different experience. I had just entered into the greatest transformative and life-changing period of psychological crisis and spiritual awakening of my lifetime so far, and i entered into it with full understanding of it as meaningful to ME, a symbolic surrender to a transformation process I felt I have been led to by something beyond myself, even kicking and screaming in protest at times, but that i had recognized and accepted as a stage of transformation and growth I had been readies for. the event of my baptism was marked by my total surrender to that, and as a result, it was a powerful experience. As i entered the water, I felt such a total sense of surrender, of "letting go" of the old way of being, and as I emerged, it was as if a power switch was thrown, I literally felt as if there were a powerful surge of almost electric like energy within my entire physical, psychological, emotional, and spiritual being. I knew then, and I know now, the actual act, that ritual had no 'power' in itself in that, the power came entirely from within what it symbolized for me. To Gervais, perhaps its was that baptism of the Holy Spirit that i experienced in the process of that water baptism at age 50. I know that many new gifts opened within me, quite powerfully and suddenly. Jenell

After a some months haitus from my fledgling first attempt ever at doing an online blog, I'm feeling its time to take it back up again. Knowing that the focus will be changing from as it began, I considered either begining an entirely new blog, or deleting all the earlier posts. I decided against both those options. I'm choosing to leave those old ones in place, for they still reprsent a stage of developmennt I was in then, and, while the focus will be changing, it will still be very much still in the direction of seeking truth and understanding. The new focus will be more toward social and political issues in the world around me, though I'm sure to stray off onto side jaunts now and then. I've begun "reactivating" my blog, Truth Seeker's Journey, by transferring some pieces I've written elswhere, the first ones being some I've done on my Facebook as notes. If any would care to check it out, here's the link: http://truthseekersjourney.blogspot.com/ Jenell

Most of this discussion took place long before i entered this forum. I don't think I've even read it before. Quite simply, I do not see the offensive behaviors toward others listed in the original post here as having anything to do witg "sexual orientation." They are violent, disrespectful, and unloving acts of violence against another weaker than oneself. Can I "love" a pedophile, rapist, etc? No. I can love a person that may have engaged in such behavior and action, but not "as" a defining element of who they are. To hate the sin but love the sinner, all that line of stuff. Even in that, to allow of love of the person, does not mean allowing for their unrestrained contunance in offensive behaviors, of this nature or any other. Love for the pertetrator of serial rapes does not negate or over ride love for the victims/potential future victims. It would not be a failure to love the rapist or pedophile to restrain such a one from further offense, to protect others from further assault. Love for all demands that effort at restrain. Jenell

The argument against the neccesity of water baptism to secure salvation that I've heard at times in my life is that as the thief hung on the cross beside Jesus confessed his sins and accepted Jesus at hus savior before he died, jesus told him that today, he would see him in paradise. That suggests the man's 'salvation' was secured, without baptism. Jenell

..() .( .) ( .. ) Jenell ==< ( ) ( ) ( ) ----------> Yvonne! Gotcha! Light freeze here tonight, but no precipitation

Did dumb things. Learned a lot.

Walked off into muck. Got out.

My most immediate concern is how i might try to support and stablize this family member, as she comes to grips with this, as noted, she has a history of mental health issues, including bi-polar..something I've mentioned before, I and others in my family have had all too much expereince with this kind of thing among us. The realities, are real for us. She has been suicidal and hospitalized more than once in the past. Something like this can knock anyone a loop, one with a history of instability makes it potentially very dangerous. Jenell

One of those really hard situations with some others devasating lfe experience, that for me, probably most of us, is one in which in our own common sense and learning in life, and our postion of emotional detachment from the matter, we can see was the result of such stupidity, poor judgement, ignorance, and failure of common sense, we can't imagine how they got themselves into their mess.....but they did, they are devasasted, they've suffered losses of many kinds from emotional to financial, and all we can do is try to be spportive, even comforting, without letting ourself say it...Omg, how could you be that stupid?? Because you care about them, and you know, that is not what they need right now...they are without much doubt having to face for themselves just how foolish they've been. A childless couple in my family, in their late 20's, unable to bear their own child, entered into "an agreement" with a single young pregnant woman, that was already the mother of a child several years old, to adopt the baby as birth. At Christmass, we were told the baby was due anytime, probably within a week. One member of the couple had received a moderate insurance settlement following an auto accident last year, and they had decided the use most of it to do this, provide care and support for the young woman, whose actual medical care was supposedly being mostly covered by Medicaide, and adopt the baby, as the opportunity to do so popped up shortly after they'd received the money. I'd had misgivings and concerns about this from the start, I really didn't feel this couple is matured, responsible, or mentally/emotionally stable enough to be taking on a baby. At least one member of this couple, the one that is my family member, has some pretty serious hisotry of mental health issues, bi-polar to start with. But, after simply expressing my concerns, I stayed out of it, tried to be supportive when it came up, it was their decision, their life. I didn't ask much details, neither did others in the family, as this couple knew others were not keen on such an idea, and pretty much keep what's going on in their private lives to themselves anyway. Other than several had seen the lavishly decorated new nursery, and a sonogram posted on Facebook, we knew little else. Some in that family closest HAD expressed concern they had been given so little details. But, I guess no one really saw this one coming. Well, long and short of it, the young woman had notified them her doctor had scheduled a C-section for last Monday morning at such and such hospital at such and such time.....they arrived at the hospital, where no one had a clue what they were talking about, no one by that woman's name had been admitted, and no doctors had a C-section scheduled. The young woman has moved out of the apartment she was in, her cell phone disconnected, and its looking at this point like she hadn't even given her real name. My family member in the couple hasn't even spoken to her mother or other close family members about it since the first day, I was able to get her to answer my calls, and as far as i know, i'm the only one she's really told much about just what has happened. I think on top of other hurt, she's so embarrassed and ashamed and humiliated, and expecting that OMG how could you have been so stupid?? Because honestly once I has more of the story, that's exacly what most anyone would say...that she just can't bring herself to face them. I've managed not to say it, as she began to lay out the story to me, even she kept saying, why didn't I press on that? Why did I believe? That looking back now, she can see all the red flags and warnings that things were not right....all I can say to that, we've all done things that in looking back, we could only wonder what we were thinking at the time...I guess when you really want something you can get so caught up in wanting it to be true, really happening, that we blind ourselves to even the obvious.... Ho boy. This one's tough. Jenell

Have a great time! Jenell

jeanied, I'm so glad we have come together in this so as to both perhaps cause you to think about some things you may not have before, yet also not be a negative experience for you. I feel very strongly, as now a 63 yr old mother and grandmother with a lot of experiences good and bad behind me, that there is NO ONE better to introduce and teach your child the important and often sensitive things they need to know for life. Whether matters of faith and religion, sex, ethics and moral behaviors...no one CARES about the impact it may have on your child than YOU. I have seen and heard of some of the most unbeleivably thoughtless, careless, outright cruel things some people can subject others to, even little children, for whatever dysfunction they have going on inside themselves....our children really only have us to use discretion in trying to protect them from that. I think many times it IS out of thoughtlessness, carelessness, just not thinking things through, often in trying to put their own point, their own opinion, across to another in perhaps an inappropriate way. but the damage is still done. It can happen to not only children, but of course, children are more tender, and have fewer resources of maturity and expereince to gelp them sort things like that out. And sadly, there are still those within religion that belief the way to 'convince' and 'convert' others is to scare them into heaven with horrors about the 'alternative'. I differ, I think we must be drawn toward God by His love, not have hell scared out of us by fear of His terrible wrath. Jenell

Jeanied, please, I apologize as I realize all my examples have been warnings to take care in introducing your child to anything from the bible. I hope to correct that imbalance somewhat....certainly if the awful experiences I related from my childhood were all I had, i'd never have stayed near the faith as I have. I have memories of some things that had profound impact upon me as a very young child, were important in positive ways. For me, early lessions about Jesus' love for me, for each of us, that was oth beyond earthly love and an enduring love that was not dependent upon my 'earning' it....that was important to me for many reasons, but oddly enough, is also what helped me reject the other "God images" and negative messages I mentioned above, that seemed to justify cruelty, rejection, and slaughter of people for "being bad." For as ANY child, we KNOW, is going to be human and make mistakes, we ARE going to "be bad" sometimes...having a sense that whomever else rejected me in the bad times, I still had a friend, one that was going to be there for me, sorrow for me, stand by me, even carry me at times...NOT throw me away or condemn me to hell. Thankfully, that was MY Jesus, that stood against that "different Jesus" some in the church tried to throw at me later, that demanded perfection, conformance to a reigious/social standard, or, lets be honest, demanded I meet approval of others that set themselves as judges. It was that jesus that "saved" me from the terror of being put out to drown in the waters around the ark, that even if I made mistakes, wasn't going to condemn me to something like that as punishment. I also was influenced by teachings of compassion, honesty, idealism in standing up for what I believe is right. As Dutch observed, there are often many different valuable teachings to be drawn from even single stories...such as 'the good Samarition'...many stop with 'who are your real friends?", but there is also 'how to be a friend, even to a stranger, without need for a reciprocal relationship, as well as how easily we can fall into being callous, selfish, too caught up in doing our own thing, conforming to social standards, etc, as did those that passed the injured man by without helping. I hope you find among all here some that will help you teach your child. And I beleive there is no one better or more trustworthy to do this than YOU, you are not incometent, you are being conciencious...the last thing I'd suggest you do is decide you can't do this, and just turn your child's introduction to faith over to people teaching SS classes, for you know niether their qualiifications or their concern for your child's best interest. You are not incapable, you ARE the most capable one for this task. Jenell

Dutch wrote: Another is that God acted out of anger and said he was sorry. Dutch, sorry to insert a bit of cynical dark humor here, but in my 1st marriage, very young, I think that must have been the one they taught my frequently very abusive, very violent husband when he'd gone to Sunday School! Lol! That in the aftermath of an incident, saying that he had acted out of anger, and was sorry, was supposed to make it all ok. Jenell

Jeanied, I add, I think adults often don't realize, or forget, how observant even very young children can be....as example, my mention of aversion to those prettified picture books of bible stories...I am 63 years old, and even still can bring up mental images of the illuustrations of the flood in one of those kind of books that I was shown when I was maybe 6 or 7 years old....and in brining up those mental images, the feelings of horror still rise up as i remember them...the streaks of rain, and the swirling waters, in shades of grays and blues and greens, as they rose up around the ark, and all those people! So many people! More than I could count, thick crowds of them in the waters, as far back into the scene as one could see, with arms upstretched, clearly begging, pleading....they were all just drawn in like dark shadowy forms, of course, so you could see no faces, to see their terror, but still, clearly people, and even so young, I knew they were all drowning, dying. I'll never get those images out of my mind. They still haunt me. I'd not want to risk doing that to another child. Jenell

Jeanied, there's no reason for you to feel that way at all. And we're sure not judging you...I, and i think others here, respect that you are seeking suggestions in how to proceed. Many even long term Christians don't think about this when they expose their children to such mature adult material as in the bible. As I noted, I remember it being done to me and other children, it bothered me enough to avoid that with my own children, but others don't see it the same way, feel its ok. Some would be offended that WE see it this way. I think now that its been pointed out to you, you see the problem, and yes, I think your idea of presenting stories about Jesus that you can translate into application in your children's lives, that they are ready to understand, would be the ideal approach. Jenell

The bible is not for young children, period. There are simply too many things far beyond a child's mind to understand, as often mentioned, the cruelty, violence, sexual immorality, generall mature adult themes that even many adults struggle wiith. so as to what bible to give a toddler, I shrink i horror at the thought...none!! I remember as a child I only wanted to read and hear 'the red words' as i called them, as the bibles commonly used had the words of Jesus printed in red. The black words, I because very aversive toward them, there seemed to so much anger and punishment and violence in them. In looking back, I've realized I was one of the "lucky" children, I did reject that, see the horror in OT massacres, or the mass destruction of human lives as in The Revelation, without any demonstration of compassion or sorrow for it, things like that....I remember some kids would, following services where the preacher had preached from some event in which the Israelites were victorious in slaughtering some other group of people, some city, every man, woman,, CHILD, INFANT, and even animal, would run and play outside, "cowboys and Indians" style, and of course arguing about who got to be the Israelites and who had to be the ones being slaughtered...even as a young child that horrified me. I remember that, and would never suggest exposing young children to that kind of thinking. That said, approach the matter as you are the teacher, and in that role it is your task to bring from the bible things you child can understand, is ready to comprehend, as age and developmentally appropriate. As mentioned elswhere here, yes, I'd say focus on Jesus, so that is their earilest memories...and the foundation for anything later. Everything else in the bible must be interpreted and translated through Jesus and the principles He taught. In choosing even from among Jesus's parables and sayings, keep in mind your child's age and development. Stories about adultresses aren't going to be understandable and meaningful to a young child. I'm presupposing you really don't want to get into what "adultery" or "fornication" means with your toddler! But there are plenty of those you can present in a context relevant to your child, that relate virtues of kindness, loyalty, humility, patience, fairness, honesty, and the like, in ways easily made meaningful to your child's perspective and real life experience. I also do not like those "bible stories" that try to present a "prettified" story about trully tragic and horrific events, such as Noah and the flood...there's no way around a lot of people still died horrifically, even if it was "because they were bad." To a little child, often told he/she is "being bad" that can bring on some trauma if they think they are ever in danger of being killed by God for what to them is "being bad." Even such stories as Cain killing Able, a young child simply cannot comprehend the kinds of human emotions and reality involved in such a thing. I think these practices tend to both frighten, perhaps even worse, harden children emotionally, teach some very perverted values. Jenell

My thoughts exactly,Yvonne,lol! Jenell

Yvonne, WS....yeah. Jenell

I'm sorry, WS. That is a really tough place to be, for you as well as them and others in your family. I can relate, my Dad, too, was very ill and incapacitated for several years beofre his passing, while at the same time my mother was already clearly exhibiting signs of dementia that we soon recognized as Alzheimers. It was a difficult time, but also a time of signficant learning and growth for myself and some others affected. I pray the best for you and yours in this. Jenell

Exactly. Jenell

1:30 am...indulged in iced tea this evening...paying for it now, caffiene high..gave in and uncorked a bottle of wine given to me for my birthday, had planned to save it for a nice meal...oh well, 1st glass nearly gone, another oughtta do it....walked out a bit ago, moonlight so bright, first freezes of the year, the air still and clear and cold...sounds carry in the crisp stillness...a pack of coyotes just cut loose with several mintues of their shrill, curiously discordant and cacophanic song not far away, mating season has begun...their presence means the wolves have drifted into neighboring territory for now, probably the river bottom where deer are more plentiful...they'll be back by late February, when the neighbors cows start dropping calves....its still and quiet again, and the wine lulls, the dogs are bedded down around me in the living room, the sounds of their breathing hypnotic....tonight, walking in the crisp chill, stepping silently through the remnants of my drought ravaged garden, bursting now with a tumble of soft winter greens from recent rains, lit only by the bright moonlight, the words and refrain come unbidden to my mind...silent night, all is calm, all is bright....a pregnant stillness, as if all creation lies in wait for...something...something new.... why does this feel like Christmass Eve night? From year to year, I never know, it seems nothing I do ever makes it come sooner than it will of its own, and some years, it doesn't come until near the midnight hour of December 24th...in this moment my thoughts turn....maybe tommorrow, I will go up into the attic, bring down some strings of light for the front fence, the wreath for the front gate, perhaps the single star for above the front porch... ...to all, a good night.... Jenell

Norm wrote: "You will enjoy the parables most, I think. They are often humorous! Imagine - a theology tome with a schtick." Dr. Mitchell, head of the Religious Studies dept where I attended, demonstrated often that fully understanding many of the parables Jesus is said to have spoken is enhanced by knowing Jewish parables in common use at the time, because many of Jesus's parables based upon Jewish parables the people were already familiar with, but in which he modified them slightly to give them a "different twist" to make His points. Jenell

Btw, mister, glad you found and decided to join us for a while. I hope you learn from and enjoy your encounters here. I'm looking forward to your participation and contributions. Jenell