glintofpewter

IMO, The Trinity is an invention to make the human Jesus divine, connect God, the Old divinity with Jesus, the New divinity, and explain why Jesus did not come back in his followers' life times, A handy little package of ideas that should never have become dogma.

Dutch

Norm reminded me of one of my favorite tv series, Joan of Arcadia. Here is a conversation between Little Girl God and Joan which has a good definition of resurrection.

Little Girl God: And they all lived happily ever after? (Joan turns) There's a surprise. (Joan scoffs) You guys really like that ending.

Joan: Yeah, well, you have a better one?

Little Girl God: They all moved towards spiritual growth and enlightenment?

Joan: Yeah. That's gonna work with the kids.

Little Girl God: Ever notice that the guy always has to risk his life and the girl is nearly dead when he finds her? It takes a kiss to wake her up and they ride off together. It's a nice metaphor.

Joan: For what?

Little Girl God: Death and resurrection.

Joan: Yeah. Well, that's a fun party game.

Little Girl God: It happens all the time. The illusion dies so that something deeper can take its place.

Joan: (sits down) Are you saying that... Adam and I are an illusion?

Little Girl God: Romance serves a purpose. It’s a meditative state. It puts logic to sleep so that people can come together. Otherwise you guys probably wouldn't risk it.

Joan: Why did you have to make love so complicated? I mean... couldn't that one thing been easy?

Little Girl God: Love is big. It's a bright light in the universe and a bright light casts a big shadow. So, what do you wanna do, Joan?

Joan: (sighs) How am I supposed to know?

Little Girl God: By looking at it. Real love is hard work; you have to decide if you want it in your story. Or if you'd rather just stay in the dream.

Dutch

Great TV series

No I don't for transfusions. and it is against Fed'l law to deny them for minors. Because I think further conversation is needed about abortion and where possible the State should not flatten religious expression unless absolutely necessary and the crazy structure our ACA provides coverage separately if employees can't get it from their employer ,the Hobby Lobby case is acceptable as it was adjudicated.

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I think Hobby Lobby should be allowed to continue with their current insurance policy. The craziness about the Hobby Lobby insurance is that the government would provide coverage for the morning after birth control drugs.

That the Little Sisters of the Poor don't want even to touch or fill out forms seems extreme to me.

Blood transfusions - usually the first example to challenge the policy. I think the courts are perfectly able to pick their way through this brier patch. They have done so in the past. Again this is the point of my question. Where is boundary? In what situations can religious freedoms be expressed without denying civil rights. Public corporations, retail operations must serve gays so that their civil rights are protected.

Isn't there unity before awareness/distinction followed by the struggle for unity?

A knowing tree and a not knowing tree - is there a difference? Aren't we asking questions of actions which is making meaning. Making meaning is always separate from the event.

Walking is an action. Asking questions after the action is making meaning, an activity far distant from walking.

If the baker was willing to make the cake for the same-sex couple but declined to put two grooms or two brides on top of the cake would he, should he, have lost the lawsuit against him?

When the SCOTUS decision was made public I went to the Hobby Lobby Facebook page and posted many times suggesting that they were hypocrites. I would not do that now.

Some research notes

In their Supreme Court complaint, Hobby Lobby's owners chronicle the many ways in which they avoid entanglements with objectionable companies. Hobby Lobby stores do not sell shot glasses, for example, and the Greens decline requests from beer distributors to back-haul beer on Hobby Lobby trucks.

Similar options exist for companies that want to practice what's sometimes called faith-based investing. ... But Hobby Lobby's managers either were not aware of these options or chose not to invest in them.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/04/hobby-lobby-retirement-plan-invested-emergency-contraception-and-abortion-drug-makers

I think we need to make some compromises on abortion issues and for me, the Hobby Lobby case is an interesting case to explore. Unfortunately the case may not be about religious beliefs and abortion.

Once I open my mouth I have to read, research and ruminate.

Yes romansh The big picture is that the Hobby Lobby case and the up coming Little Sisters of Poor case (they don't want to fill out the form that says they will not provide birth control) will begin a series of steps that will eviscerate the Affordable Care Act.

The Greens re-examined the company’s health insurance policy back in 2012, shortly before filing the lawsuit. A Wall Street Journal story says they looked into their plan after being approached by an attorney from the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty about possible legal action over the federal government’s contraceptives requirement.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/01/sally-kohn/did-hobby-lobby-once-provide-birth-control-coverag/

 

Based on the wikipedia entry the Becket Fund does not seem like a shill for the right.

If the Green family had had their wits about them and not provided emergency birth control coverage for their employees before Obamacare would we care?

The ACA implementation is bastard combination of private and public efforts. I don't think the employer is an agent of the State in this case. It is being asked to follow the State's law. There's a difference, right?

Dutch

One

My liberals consider me apostate. I think that Hobby Lobby should be allowed their policy. They don't ban all contraceptives. Employees have other choices.

Is there room in America for this diversity or is this like other civil rights that must be applied universally? Can you be friends, or maybe just an acquaintance with someone who enjoys a good game of golf but is a Birther who is adamant that Obama is not an American citizen?

Dutch

The Joyful Path Curriculum for Children 6-10 yrs Unit 8 Lesson 6

The theme is LIFELONG LEARNING>> Lesson 6: Developing an Inner Life

 

The important thing to remember is

that if we want to continue to feel close to our spiritual

nature, or to feel connected to God within us, we need

to allow some time in our life to quiet the mind and

the heart and go inward, where that connection is

strongest

The exercise in this lesson might be called Centering Prayer or an introduction to breath centered meditation.

I am looking at curricula used by various denominations in Helena, Montana because, a few years from now, we will be "allowed" to take our grand-daughter to Sunday school so which church we choose depends not only on my needs but on her potential needs.

This may be a short thread but a few questions come to mind.

1. Would you be part of a congregation just so your children could attend Sunday School?

2. What is important in Sunday School Curriculum?

3. Is this lesson appropriate? Should it be taught that meditation, a time of quiet spiritual practice, is necessary or recommended?

My answers

1. Yes

2. That it draws from many wisdom and sacred traditions and centered around Hebrew texts and the New Testament. I would like to avoid the idea being a Christian but being a follower of Jesus.

3. Yes

(My first impression of the UU curriculum is positive also but my concern would be whether it supports a child being centered in one tradition will learning from many spiritual traditions)

https://www.uua.org/re/tapestry/30341.shtml

Dutch

If you are an "originalist" as so many of our Supreme Court justices are then an accurate interpretation is essential I guess and learning as much as we can about the author, context, and audience is important but that only informs our reading of a text, it does not nail it down

Some early Christians did not believe that a blood sacrifice was the way Jesus says. Certainly that imagery is intentionally or thoughtlessly in our hymns and liturgy and language, creating an inertia that continues a creed long after congregations have moved on.

God got mad and punished them. It is all made up and pretend

 

These stories are "made up" but when told so that they carry truth they are not pretend. The truths these stories carry depend on the community telling the story and its resources. If we tell the stories which are devoid of truth then that is "pretend." I think perhaps that some of the Biblical stories were "pretend" because some nomadic tribes wanted to feel powerful and special when they were not. But other Biblical stories carry truths for the community that tells them over and over.

The story of Job is proof that even when other Scriptures were being written about a rewarding and punishing God, some people knew that to be a false image of God.

Dutch

I clicked thumbs up to even the score.

a quote that speaks to my experience and struggle.

I believe any truly spiritual path must understand its main function is to provide the opportunity to experience genuine Unity, or a Oneness with all Creation. There are many ways to say the same thing but every church, religious, or spiritual gathering is trying to help the attendee experience that Oneness. I am convinced one of the places we can do that is with music. ... But go into a typical church today with sixty members and listen to them try and experience Oneness or sense of Connectedness as they stumble through a difficult hymn or unacceptable theology. At some point in that experience, most people are just hoping for the hymn to be over.

 

I think Paul was writing scriptures - since he was the first to write - not interpreting some other texts. Not all early followers of Jesus would have agreed with Paul's conclusion about how Jesus "saves" us. Some thought he was a great moral teacher and we should follow his teachings. That is the way to save our lives and the world. Later I think it was Thomas Aquinas that Jesus saves us by eliciting compassion at the sight of his suffering.

And in a process thought cartoon God and Jesus are saying "Damn, no one is listening! What's plan B?"

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

 

I am not sure how any of this could be taken literally. God is creating a good world. Why is it evil? Who has the power to thwart God's intent? Did God make an evil world? Only an arrogant human would think he had the power to upset God's good world.

I think the most powerful motivations for Paul's writing was to keep HIS flock together, encourage believers and assure them that, as terrible as things were, good would win in the end. If you can't be fighting the battle outside then fight the battle within. If things are so terrible God must be punishing us for something we did. Search your souls for the evil you know you must have committed!

This is the same mindset of many of the Hebrews in captivity. And it is one of the central concerns in the Bible: why do bad things happen to good people? But the answer is s__t happens for no reason not because I am so bad that someone has to die to fix it.

Dutch

Welcome fbraakman,

You will find good company here while you travel your path

Dutch

http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=b51b9cf441b059bb232418480&id=5b2841d1e8&e=ae84790f18

The recent PC ebulletin raises an issue that often in the back of my mind. If the music in church is not aesthetically uplifting or you no longer attend church where or how do you meet the aesthetic need?

Dutch

I collect threes

trinity worth our focus and meditation.

wisdom

compassion

creativity

although we cannot name [God] and we cannot describe [God] we can know the presence of [God] when we experience wisdom, compassion, or creativity, a trinity worth our focus and meditation.

John Spong

Source of life

source of love

ground of being

So, God to me is the source of life, and I worship God by living. God to me is the source oflove, and I worship God by loving. God to me is the ground of being, and I worship God byhaving the courage to be everything I can be. John Spong in conversation with Michael Dowd

Three Dimensions of God

Jesus spoke about God, (infinite face of God)

Jesus spoke to God, (intimate face of God)

Jesus spoke as God.(inner face of God)

And Jesus invites us to speak of God in those three ways ourselvesThe inner face of Godwas Jesus true divine self. That was his Christ-consciousness; that was his own image of God that he was and that was being expressed in human flesh. Jesus was a spiritual being on a human journey, and he invited us to know that we too are spiritual beings on a human journey. Paul Smith in conversation with Michael DowdA New Christmas Story: God in 3D, Paul Smith

Augustine

God

God's Wisdom (breath, spirit)

God's Word (articulated breath)

There is only One God the Father. He had his own Word and Wisdom (spirit) with Him.)When God first "thought" He sent out His invisible, inaudible Spirit or "breath."When that invisible breath was articulated they became His Son. The Word of God is the Son of God. God's word, wisdom or spirit are not separated persons.

Augustine The Trinity: a Summary

Lover

Beloved

Love between them

Hindu/Christian/Evolution

Generator/Creator/

Operator/Sustainer/Holy Spirit

Destroyer/Transformer/Jesus

The destruction and transformation of the known world with its lack of vision beyond itself and in desperate need of novelty, is found in the promise of a new resurrection in Jesus.