curlytop

Darby -- yes -- and there are many within the RCC who also vote with their feet by openly dissenting from official doctrine. I think it's important to differentiate the institution from the people themselves. I believe the people themselves, in all their variety of opinion, are the church. We recognize that its dogma and doctrine has changed over time, and will continue to do so, even if more slowly than we'd like. Aletheia -- I have only read bits and snippets of de Mello so can't recommend any particular book by him. But Ratzinger does have a hand in many of the more recent censurings, although I can't say at the moment which specific ones. Hans Kung comes to mind -- they are definitely not buddies. I also read somewhere that there is an effort to keep Thomas Merton out of the revised Catholic catechism--something that Ratzinger had a hand in as prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. If this happens, it would be a real shame. Lily -- I think many would agree that the RCC should intentionally move toward moderation to remain tenable. And in fact, there are already suggestions that Ratzinger recognizes that his papacy could be very divisive and thus he may try to tone down his previous rhetoric. For example, he says that he wants to continue the ecumenical dialogue that JPII was known for. I find that hard to believe given some of the things he's said about other religions in the past, but will keep it in prayer. Thanks, all, for your thoughts, curlytop

Hey Beach-- Personally I'm not too thrilled about this particular papal election, however, conservatives and traditionalists are probably very pleased. I'm holding it all in prayer. Ratzinger is quite conservative, although during Vatican II in the 1960s he was known for his progressive views. Before becoming pope, he was head of the RCC's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the office that safeguards the official teachings of the church. In this post he has done things like: make recommendations to Catholic publishers to censure the works of Anthony De Mello, a respected Jesuit priest known for fostering east-west dialogue, call other Christian churches "deficient," claim homosexuality to be "an intrinsic evil," and try (unsuccessfully) to get rid of altar girls and liturgical dancing. Some say that his choice of "Benedict" as his papal name harkens back to Saint Benedict, known to be a great listener -- and hope that it means his new role will encourage him to be a great listener to the needs of the church in the modern world. While only time will tell, we shouldn't expect him to make any changes in regards to women's roles in the church, contraception, priestly celibacy, etc. Since he is old (78), it may be that he will be a "caretaker" pope who simply holds things together for a few years as the church continues transitioning into the new millenium. Again, only time will tell. Some media people are getting on his case for being a member of Hitler Youth when he was in high school -- but it's unfair to focus on this as his high school in Germany required all students to do this during World War II. His family intentionally distanced themselves from the Nazis. Still and all, he doesn't have much of a taste for interreligious dialogue, or for those who participate in interreligious dialogue. So my mood is gloomy today. Regards, curlytop

LOL and thank you, Cynthia -- I guess we should actually READ other parts of this website!!! curlytop

Howdy-- THN's "Living Buddha, Living Christ" is actually a discussion of Christianity from a Buddhist's point of view. A quote from this book is discussed in cunninglily's "Praxis and Ritual in Christianity" thread. Peace, curlytop

Matthew Fox's "The Coming of the Cosmic Christ" is also good, very readable. As for Ken Wilber, included on that list in the first post, the best introduction to his ideas are "A Brief History of Everything." And we've been discussing Thich Nhat Hanh's "Living Buddha, Living Christ" in the "Praxis and Ritual in Christianity" thread. --curlytop

In Santa Barbara there is a wonderful retreat center: La Casa de Maria run by the IMH (Immaculate Heart of Mary) sisters -- don't let their Catholicity scare you, they are radical! I was recently there for an interfaith conference that included folks from the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, and Sufi Islam tradition. La Casa recently acquired this big dorm a few miles down the road from the original retreat center (it used to be a Jesuit novitiate) that is a great and nicely priced place for folks to stay . . . especially in comparison with local hotels. And it has classrooms, large meeting rooms, a chapel, etc. Worth looking into, y'all! curlytop

Howdy and thanks to all for the musings on communion. I believe that Eucharist / Communion is Jesus's gift of himself to the world and a healing nourishment from the Cosmic Christ. I also like what Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh says about communion in "Living Buddha, Living Christ": "Holy communion is a strong bell of mindfulness. We drink and eat all the time, but we usually ingest only our ideas, projects, worries, and anxiety. We do not really eat our bread or drink our beverage. If we allow ourselves to touch our bread deeply, we become reborn, because our bread is life itself. Eating it deeply, we touch the sun, the clouds, the earth, and everything in the cosmos. We touch life, and we touch the Kingdom of God. . . The body of Christ of the body of God, the body of ultimate reality, the ground of all existence. We do not have to look anywhere else for it. It resides deep down in our being. The Eucharistic rite encourages us to be fully aware so that we can touch the body of reality in us. Bread and wine are not symbols. They contain the reality, just as we do." Sometimes when I pray before communion, I give thanks for the starlight and the rain and the earth that helped the wheat to grow, I give thanks to the seeds that had to die before it became bread, I give thanks for the workers who tilled the fields and harvested the grain, I give thanks for the people who kneaded the dough and baked the bread, I give thanks for all the people around me, who are also receiving this cosmic nourishment and with whom I am united in this meal, I give thanks because as we take in the Eucharist we are transformed into the Eucharist, becoming Eucharist for others . . . Peace and communion, curlytop

Aletheia -- Just wanted to second (or rather third) the suggestions on an Episcopal church, which is where I may end up myself if I ever end up doing something to get myself ex-communicated . . . I remember when I started going to church again and was worried about if I would get all the sitting, standing, kneeling, etc., just right. So I just went and sat in the back and followed along with what other people did. When I found a place that felt "friendly," I kept visiting. Eventually some announcement gets made about those who may be interested in learning more about the church. Or the rector or minister or priest introduces him/herself to you. And it goes from there . . . des posted a link to the Liberal Catholic Church International. I used to be a member of that church -- (To clarify: there are numerous Catholic churches that are not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church. Many of them broke with the RCC over papal infallibility, treatment of women, anti-Semitism during WWII, etc. Some of them are liberal, while others are actually more conservative than the RCC. In addition, within the RCC, there are conservative, moderate, and liberal parishes, and one can be as different from the other as day is different from night. At any rate, I currently go to a progressive RCC parish.) I joined the Liberal Catholic Church after being estranged from my faith for most of my adult life and experiencing a deep spiritual hunger. The town that I moved to in southern California turned out to have a storefront LCC just a few blocks from my house! Very small congregation, but was a real God-send at that time in my life. Most of the congregants had been raised Catholic but had experienced rejection at some point -- perhaps because of being divorced and re-married, gay parents wanting to baptize their kids, etc. It was a beautiful space for those of us kind of stumbing and stuttering our way back into faith. Several of us women congregants started a women's spirituality group that has been meeting since 1998. But this particular storefront LCC eventually folded. Here's the tale of woe: In the late 90s, the LCC was adhering to the "Old Catholic" style of liturgy -- lots of archaic, quasi-medieval language in spite of the relatively open, liberal theology. (Apparently that's changing now, I guess). The pastor of our church sought permission from the local bishop to update the language of the liturgy. He refused. So our pastor decided to ex-cardinate from the LCC and to re-incardinate into the Catholic Apostolic Church in North America (CACINA), another breakaway Catholic church. This was wrenching for many of the congregants. We lost the relationship with the LCC bishop, and being that we were now only one of 2 or 3 CACINA parishes in the western U.S., we felt a bit like lone wolves. We had only that one pastor to serve us, so if he was sick or out of town, we couldn't have a full Sunday service. People dropped away, and eventually we weren't able to pay the lease on the storefront, so we had to close. Something that I found to be a little disquieting about the breakaway Catholic churches, wonderful though they can be for wandering souls--is that many of them seem to have more clergy than congregants! And in-fighting among the clergy at that. And the lack of a large, and more stable institution to fall back on means that they have a precarious existence. At any rate, after the CACINA church folded I looked around at different Episcopal and RC parishes and eventually came across an RC church whose pastor was actually more progressive than the Liberal Catholic Church was . . . go figure! (And yes: probably a rare find). One really has to go out there and taste and see . . . Interestingly, those other women who used to belong to that storefront church still hang out but have flown in all directions: one returned to the Lutheran Church, another now goes to a Unitarian Universalist Church after trying out Religious Science for a while, a couple others went back to RC churches (and I occasionally visit a local UCC from time to time when I'm in the mood for an out-and-out political sermon). We still treasure that acceptance and that period of growth that the LCC provided for us. Perhaps my (rather long-winded) point is: It's a good idea to look at specific parishes to find that special place--seeking by denomination is a start but because there can be so much variety within denominations, you have to "try out" different places. Peace y'all, curlytop

Hey Earl -- Thanks for starting this thread. I don't have much time at the moment, so I'll return later. Just wanted to say: I love the Christian mystical / contemplative path. I think it's the true inner essence of Christian prayer, its deep wisdom, its heart. The mystical path can be traced back to Judaism, as when the psalmist writes "Be still and know that I am God." And to Jesus, when he taught people to go in to their room, "close the door, and pray to the Father in secret, and the Father who sees in secret will reward you." Now that I have a contemplative prayer practice, the gospels have come to life for me in a way that I never would have imagined. What I also love about the Christian mystical path is that it gives us a point of connection and dialogue with the contemplative paths of other world religions, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufi Islam, etc. Have you ever read Evelyn Underhill's "Mysticism" or Wayne Teasdale's "The Mystic Heart"? Both wonderful books on mysticism (although Underhill's is long and somewhat heavy-going at times.) I'm a budding Ken Wilber fan too. Anyway, check you later, mystic Earl! Peace, curlytop

Hi there Beach -- Just curious -- have you been to any Catholic churches or Catholic-sponsored events lately? The reason I ask is because you seem to have a stereotyped vision of the Catholic church that we often see in fiction and popular culture -- dark, morbid, repressive, anti-modern, etc. And so many people still think we actually pray to saints instead of to God. That is not true. We may invite saints to intercede on our behalf, to pray with us as we pray to God. We do not substitute God for saints in our prayers. Another common misconception: People think that we still have confession in a dark, ominous-looking wooden booth where there is a screen between the person and the priest. This is generally not the case these days. You sit and talk face-to-face with the priest in a room or in a curtained-off area of the church. I attend a Catholic church that is fairly progressive and very social-justice oriented. It is also an historically African-American church with blacks, whites, Latinos and Asians. We have a gospel choir that sings contemporary music and a youth choir that sings once a month, sometimes treating us to hip-hop hymns. We have a gay and lesbian group, and we host the Interfaith Committee for Worker Justice. There are generally no "dark and morbid" decorations in our church. Of course, there are Catholic churches where you can get the morbidity and ancient-ness if you'd like, but they are not all like that. People can go to rock masses, folk masses, gospel masses, mariachi masses, masses with contemporary contemplative music, etc. There are a wide variety of Catholics, ranging from archconservative to radically progressive, but most (in the U.S. at least) are in the moderate-to-liberal range. Catholics in the third world probably have a different idea of what church should be than do American and European Catholics. And the hierarchy often clashes with layfolks over what church should be. But check out these stats: 75 percent of lay Catholics want married priests; 65 percent are ready for women priests. (These percentages are slightly higher in Europe). As for the birth control rule -- well, the hierarchy may say one thing, but believe me, more than 90 percent of U.S. and European Catholics use artificial contraception. I think I already wrote this in another thread, but the institutional church came so close to condoning contraception in the 60s. Pope John XXIII got a commission together to study and make recommendations on the issue. Their decision: 9 for contraception, 3 against, and 3 abstentions. But Pope Paul VI, in his 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae, rejected the commission's recommendations. Many Catholics had thought birth control was on its way in and started using it anyway. And today, of course, most still do. Okay. I've gone on and on here. But just wanting to dispel some myths about Catholicism. If you've read this far, thanks for putting up with this catholic girl who is a tad bit on the defensive! curlytop

Ani-man, that is horrible that you were abused by clergy as a child. I cannot imagine the sense of betrayal you must have experienced, but I am deeply sorry to hear about it. The church has yet to really face this issue--it seems like we hear of such abuse every decade or so, and each time it comes up again you wonder: well, didn't they do something about this last time? Didn't they learn? I think that John Paul II was simply unable to address this issue that has long needed attention because it was so alien to his experience and his cultural worldview. Even my mother, rest her soul, who was born a year before the pope, always had trouble even believing that child sexual abuse occurred. One has to be able to admit that such things happen before they can take steps to stop it and work to help victims heal. . . In pondering your remarks on John Dear's letter--unfortunately not everyone is against poverty, war, and nuclear weapons. In fact we have people in serious positions of power who are most definitely FOR these things, particularly war as a means to "solve" conflict. And I recall stats from 2003 and 2004 showing that most "church-going people" supported the war in Iraq, even as most mainline churches took official stances against the war. . . Nobody may overtly claim to be "for" poverty as such, but they will go and support policies that perpetuate poverty--cut health care funding, push mentally ill people out on the street, keep wages low, making life more difficult for the working poor, neglect funding for schools in poor areas, so that children living there receive an inferior education, so that the cycle of poverty contines, and so on, and so on . . . True, there are more "mega" churches forming, but they don't appeal to everyone. I like the idea of house church, small christian communities, and contemplative communities for non-monastics. Peace to you, curlytop

I like what Episcopal priest Brian Taylor says about the Bible in his book, "Setting the Gospel Free"-- "The Bible is not God. It is a collection of stories and teachings told by an ancient people concerning their experience with God. Sometimes they were wrong, and sometimes they were right on the money. This point of view will make some nervous (“Well, if we can pick and choose what to believe, what good is it?”). But it will also return ultimate truth to where it belongs: to God. God will highlight and burn in our souls from scripture what we need to hear and heed. God will use this imperfect, human document (what other kind of material does God have to work with in this human life, anyway?) to awaken us to the miracle of our life. God will use teachers, friends, books, and the Spirit within to sort out what is eternally true from what is culturally misguided in scripture. On the other hand, as people of the biblical tradition, we take the Bible seriously. For we recognize that it represents centuries of broad experience, an experience of thousands of people, many of whom were utterly devoted to and graced by God in profound ways. This representation far outweighs the limited experience of our own individual lives. While we may have more wisdom than one or another of the particular voices of scripture, we cannot make this claim about the broad themes and recurring truths that shine through its human limitations. While we take scripture seriously, we must also give ourselves permission to have some perspective on it; it's all right for scripture to anger, awaken, bore, annoy, delight, confuse, inspire, and leave us feeling neutral. All of scripture doesn't have to be enlightening. To treat all of the Bible as a kind of divine object that we are supposed to grimly revere, even if it seems way out of whack with our own experiences is to give it an oppressive authoritarianism that its authors did not intend. With a contextual approach to scripture we allow it to be for us what it is: a varied collection of inspired beauty, misguided delusion, paradoxical mystery, spiritual immaturity, and divine wisdom. With this attitude we can take it lightly or importantly, we can trust that the same God who spoke to the authors and characters of scripture, real people in time and place, will also guide us through its use and speak to us in our own time and place." Sorry, this turned out to be pretty long! Peace, curlytop

I think Brandon (from that letter in Ani-man's post) is overstating JP II's "demonization" of gays and lesbians. While he was certainly no gay rights advocate and had definitely archaic notions on sexuality, neither would he wear "God Hates Fags" signs at gay funerals. He (wrongly, in my opinion) thought homosexuality to be a disorder, but he did not think homosexual people themselves were intrinsically evil. Here's another article involving thoughts about John Paul II: The Church After JPII by Father John Dear “War is never inevitable,” Pope John Paul II said two years ago before the U.S. bombed Iraq. “It is always a defeat for humanity.” When I met John Paul II in 1995, I realized that such anti-war statements were at the heart of his spiritual life, and that he was passionate about peace. Over eight hundreds members of Pax Christi, the international Catholic peace movement, had gathered in Assisi for a week of meetings. Afterward, a delegation of some one hundred and fifty of us traveled to Rome for an audience with the Pope. “Movements like Pax Christi are precious to the Church,” he said to us, calling upon Catholics everywhere to work for peace. “They help draw people’s attention to the violence which shatters the harmony between human beings.” He was so taken with our group that he spent several hours walking around the room, meeting each one of us. When I gave him a copy of my book, The God of Peace, he looked at it, then raised his right hand, bringing the tips of his fingers together, and said out loud in his thick accent, “Ah! Peace! John Dear! The God of Peace! God bless you.” It was quite a reaction. While I mourn for John Paul II, I lament that he did not ordain women, support liberation theology, or defend martyred Archbishop Oscar Romero. But I recognize that he was clearly against war, poverty and nuclear weapons. This conviction, I think, holds the key to the future of the church. Given the dramatic shortage of priests that will hit the Church in the next two decades, change is inevitable. Sooner or later, whether in ten years or one hundred, the Church will ordain women, allow clergy to marry, permit local communities to elect bishops, welcome gays and lesbians and respect other religions. The tide of history cannot be stopped. The changes will help the Church become healthier, more faithful, and more loving. But while these changes are crucial, even deeper changes are needed. The future of the church, I submit, depends on the Catholic community’s full embrace of the Gospel of peace, renunciation of the just war theory and renewed adherence to active nonviolence in the tradition of the early Christian martyrs. Someday, the Church will move from its focus on power, domination, and control to forgiveness, compassion and equality, so that it is not so much Pope-centered, or Vatican-centered, as Jesus-centered, peace-centered. It will act as a grassroots, decentralized movement of creative nonviolence empowering everyone to serve God’s reign of peace and justice, and resist the forces of war and injustice. In the future, the college of Cardinals will be made up of people like Daniel Berrigan, Thomas Gumbleton, Roy Bourgeois--and Helen Prejean, Joan Chittister and Kathy Kelly. The Church is supposed to be the peacemaking community of followers of the nonviolent Jesus. Its task is to walk in his footsteps, to do his work, to implement his teachings, and to take up his cross in the struggle for justice. Those Gospel teachings are clear: love your neighbor, be as compassionate as God, serve the poor, hunger and thirst for justice, forgive seventy times seven times, put down the sword, take up the cross in the struggle for justice, become peacemakers and love your enemies. This is the work of every Catholic, and the institutional Church exists to serve us on this journey of discipleship to the nonviolent Jesus. It is supposed to help us shake off our fear, announce God’s reign, take up the cross, and lay down our lives for suffering humanity. The Pope is supposed to model the peacemaking life, even by entering war zones and demanding peace. As John Paul II understood, the question of war is the crux of the matter. Can Catholics support war and still follow the nonviolent Jesus who commanded us to love our enemies? I believe we cannot serve both the false gods of war and the living God of peace. War is the ultimate sin. We are called to love our enemies, not kill them. Just as John Paul II vigorously denounced war, especially the Bush Administration’s slaughter of the people of Iraq, Catholics everywhere must renounce war and add their voice to the global peace movement. Everyone has to undergo this deep spiritual conversion from violence to nonviolence. We can no longer just spend one hour a week at church, and then go about our business in a world with thirty-five wars where 40,000 people die daily from hunger while the nuclear arsenal grows every day. We have to engage in public work for justice and peace for the rest of our lives. We cannot remain passive or silent or leave these big issues to the Pope. Each one of us has to become like John Paul II. As a people, we have to reject the culture of war, practice the nonviolence of Jesus, and join the struggle for a new culture of peace. I think this is the hope of the Church, indeed, the hope of the nonviolent Jesus for the Church. Just as Pope John Paul II apologized for the crusades, the Inquisition and Catholic support of Nazi genocide, one day in the future, the Catholic Church will apologize for its support of war, renounce the just war theory, and return to the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus’ teachings on nonviolence as the blueprint for Christian living. On that new day, Catholics will move closer to our Mennonite and Quaker sisters and brothers. We will no longer bless war, pay for war, or fight in war. We will understand nonviolence as the key to the Gospel and our own Christian faith. We will refuse to make nuclear weapons, execute people on death row, or practice interpersonal violence. We will feed the starving, give away free medicine to those with HIV and AIDS in Africa, and end poverty. Every Catholic will be part of a local, grassroots base community of Gospel nonviolence, to pray, study and act together for justice and peace. We will resist the structures of war and corporate greed through the methods of active nonviolence until war, poverty, hunger and nuclear weapons are abolished. This transformation will not be easy. It will require that age-old Gospel business of the cross, our participation in the paschal mystery. As the Gospel instructs, we will pursue God’s reign of peace, resist systemic violence, and prefer to suffer violence rather than retaliate with further violence. Through our suffering love, we too will become saints, prophets and champions of justice and peace. On this journey into the future, we all have to become like Dorothy Day of the Catholic Worker and shelter the poor and defend the marginalized. We all have to become like Sister Helen Prejean and work to abolish the cruel and inhuman punishment of the death penalty. We all have to become like Sister Joan Chittister and advocate for women’s rights. We all have to become like Kathy Kelly and defend our sisters and brothers in Iraq and Palestine. We all have to become like Bono and campaign to cancel the third world debt and ship massive quantities of free drugs to Africans with AIDS/HIV. We all have to become like Roy Bourgeois and work to close the SOA and all U.S. terrorist training camps. We all have to become like Daniel and Philip Berrigan and speak out against war and nuclear weapons, even to the point of arrest and imprisonment. Instead of a grim future, I see a bright future where the global church wakes up to the wisdom of Gospel nonviolence. Like those daring, early Christian martyrs, everyone will give their life as part of the Church’s mission of transforming nonviolence. The Church will lead the way to a new world without war, injustice, hunger or nuclear weapons. Not only will we share in the cross of Jesus, we will also share the new life of his resurrection, and become the light of the world. And like that early Church, we will stop the empire’s wars and lead one another into the spiritual depths of peace.

Hi all -- I think the question of the pope's "consistent morality" is a really good one to ponder. Perhaps it could be seen as consistent from within the context of the pope's particular cultural conditioning and worldview. But as des put it, does this morality square with the demands of the 21st century? Is this morality effective in a world in the midst of an AIDS pandemic, when Catholics in Africa (even married couples in which one spouse is HIV positive!) are told that it is a sin to use condoms? Aren't their lives precious too? Or is it that once you have HIV, you're simply never supposed to have intercourse again? Older men who have been celibate for most of their lives might not see this as so much to ask, but what about those of us who are living a life that include loving, sexual expression? These are the kinds of issues that I hope and pray the next pope will be able to face with wisdom and courage. Thanks to all for the thoughtful insights, curlytop

Here's an alternative to the Nicene Creed, for anybody who may be interested. It's by Joan Chittister, from her book "In Search of Belief." (I'm excerpting, the entire creed is longer than what I'm typing here) I believe in one God who made us all and whose divinity infuses all of life with the sacred. I believe in the multiple revelations of that God alive in every human heart, expressed in every culture, and found in all the wisdoms of the world. I believe that Jesus Christ, the unique son of God, is the face of God on earth in whom we see best the divine justice, divine mercy, and divine compassion to which we are all called. I believe in the Christ who is One in being with the Creator and who shows us the presence of God in everything that is and calls out the sacred in ourselves. . . . By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the woman Mary, pure in soul and single-hearted-- a sign to the ages of the exalted place of womankind in the divine plan of human salvation. . . He grew as we grow through all the stages of life. . . He showed us the Way, lived it for us, suffered from it, and died because of it so that we might live with new heart, new mind, and new strength despite all the death to which we are daily subjected. For our sake and for the sake of eternal Truth he was hounded harassed and executed by those who were their own gods and who valued the sacred in no other. He suffered so that we might realize that the spirit in us can never be killed whatever price we have to pay for staying true to the mind of God. He died but did not die because he lives in us still. . . . I believe in the Holy Spirit, the breath of God on earth, who keeps the Christ vision present to souls yet in darkness, gives life even to hearts now blind. Infuses energy into spirits yet weary, isolated, searching and confused. . . . I believe in one holy and universal church. Bound together by the holiness of creation and the holiness of hearts forever true. I acknowledge the need to be freed from the compulsions of my disordered life and my need for forgiveness in face of frailty. I look for life eternal in ways I cannot dream and trust that creation goes on creating in this world and in us forever. Amen.

Hi there Lily -- I myself am Catholic but centering prayer is an ecumenical movement. It's a renewal of the Christian contemplative tradition that got started in the 1980s with the Trappists Thomas Keating, Basil Pennington, and William Meninger. I live in the San Diego area, where we have about 37 centering prayer groups that meet at various Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Catholic churches. Also, I was at an interfaith conference recently that had Thomas Keating as one of the teachers, and discovered that there are Jews who practice centering prayer also. Here are the four guidelines of Centering Prayer: 1. Choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God's presence and action within. (One or two syllable words, such as love, peace, joy, one, amen, let go, I am, etc. The meaning of the word is not as important as your use of it to consent to God's presence). 2. Sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God's presence and action within. 3. When engaged with your thoughts, return ever-so-gently to the sacred word ("thoughts" is am umbrella term for anything that arises in your consciousness: memories, insights, wanderings of the imagination, words of prayer, physical sensations, etc. The idea is not to stop or censor the thoughts, but to gently let them go.) 4. At the end of the prayer period, remain in silence with eyes closed for a couple of minutes. --Ideally, this is practiced for 20 minutes twice a day: once in the morning and once in the evening. For more information go to www.contemplativeoutreach.org or www.centeringprayer.com, the websites for Contemplative Outreach. There you could also find out if there are any centering prayer groups or upcoming workshops in your area. Lectio Divina roughly translates as "Holy Reading." There are many ways to practice it, but here is one 4-step structured method, for use by individuals or groups: 1. Start with "lectio" (reading): --Read a short passage of scripture --Listen to God's word --After reading, allow 1-2 minutes of quite time. 2. Proceed to "meditatio" (meditation) --Read the scripture again --Let Jesus speak to you --Reflect on the message --Ask: "Lord, what do you want me to learn from this passage today?" --Then allow 2-3 minutes of quiet time 3. "Oratio" (prayer) --Read the scripture a third time --Let your heart speak to God --Trust God enough to become emotionally involved, engage in spontaneous prayer --Then allow another 2-3 minutes, or more, of quiet time. 4. "Contemplatio" (contemplation) --Read the scripture a final time. --Sit quietly and allow the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart in and through the silence --allow perhaps 5 minutes of quiet time. Here's a bit of a blurb about Contemplative Outreach, the organization that teaches centering prayer: "Contemplative Outreach is a spiritual network of individuals and small faith communities committed to living the contemplative dimension of the Gospel in everyday life through the practice of centering prayer. The contemplative dimension of the Gospel manifests itself in an ever-deepening union with the living Christ and the practical caring for others that flows from that relationship. . . We identify with the Christian contemplative heritage. While we are formed by our respective denominations, we are united in our common search for God and the experience of the living Christ through centering prayer. We affirm our solidarity with the contemplative diminsion of other religions and sacred traditions, with the needs and rights of the whole human family, and with all creation." Warm regards, curlytop

Hey all -- Jumping in late on this thread and haven't had a chance to read everything here yet, but just wanted to pipe in concerning God/dess's "ineffability" versus "grasp-ability" . . . Is it perhaps a question of recognizing that our ideas and concepts about God are not God? They are of God, they are manifestations of God, but they are continually evolving . . . God is something Real that can be experienced, but our experiences of God are always mediated through our cultural conditioning, our physiology, our intellect, etc. In other words, as the Buddhists remind us, "the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon." But the finger is pointing to something that is Real. . . Also, I'm a budding Ken Wilber fan and have read A Brief History of Everything and a Theory of Everything -- both excellent introductions to integral theory. There is also a website, www.integralnaked.org, where you can see listen to (and occasionally see, when such things are videoed), KW's discussions with all kinds of interesting folks, like Thomas Keating, Wayne Teasdale, and, most recently, Brother David Steindl-Rast. . . Those of you interested in panentheism might want to check out the first talk between KW and Steindl-Rast. There is a 10 dollar a month fee to join Integral Naked, but you do get a free first-month trial. (Beware, however. It is addicting . . .) Peace and light, curlytop

Well, here's three for centering prayer! I do centering prayer daily, plus I'm in a once-a-week group that meets for centering prayer and lectio divina. From time to time I'll have periods in which I go to daily mass. On weekdays the early masses are a half-hour long and are a wonderful way to begin the day. Other practices that I may take on from time to time include novenas, nine-day periods of prayer focused on the holy spirit or a particular saint, as well as rosaries and divine mercy chaplets. Now that I have done centering prayer for a while I do not pray the rosary as much as I did in times past, but when I do pray the rosary (especially with a group) it seems I pray it at a deeper level -- possibly as a result of centering prayer. Daily walks and conversation with my husband and my friends are also a part of my practice of prayer in everyday life. Once a year, I try to attend an extended silent retreat--6 to 10 days. This summer I'll be attending an 8-day centering prayer retreat in Los Angeles, sponsored by Contemplative Outreach. Peace, curlytop

And thanks to you Cynthia -- by the way I second the nominatin for Hans Kung as Pope! curlytop

"Between the Times" by Ray Makeever Once there was a river in the valley With water clear as crystal casting diamonds in the sun. Now the river bed is dry and empty And no one knows where all the water's gone. But somewhere from the east there come the mem'ries That weave the morning sunrise with the river's sacrifice And those who trust the movement of the cent'ries Can still see the river flow between the times. Chorus: Between the times of plenty-- 1) When the water's just a trickle in our lives 2) When the song is just a whisper in our lives 3) When freedom is imprisoned in our lives --At the time that we must grieve Because the words that we believe aren't coming true What shall we do between the times? What shall we do between the times? Once there was a singer in each person With a voice as strong as rain and thunder carried on the wind Now the sounds we make are so uncertain That we wonder if we'll ever sing again But somewhere from the north there come the mem'ries That whisper on the breeze across the lakes and in the pine And those who trust the movement of the cent'ries Can still hear a song to sing between the times. Once there was a road that led to freedom Where kindness walked with truth and peace and justice led the way Now the people have no one to lead them And we weep to see the children go astray But somewhere from the south there come the mem'ries Of a land of milk and honey and the promised rainbow sign And those who trust the movement of the cent'ries Can still walk along the road between the times. Peace and fortitude, curlytop

Hey all! Catholic girl here. Thanks for your prayers. Cynthia mentioned: "I also hope that the next pope will bring people to God, in a way they can respect. How sad and disconnecting to be loyal to a religion/culture such as catholicism and be unable to behaviorally respect it's leader. I think it forces people into guilt and hypocrisy... and away from God. As does all legalism." I deeply disagreed with John Paul II on many things, particularly sexual / reproductive / gender issues. But over the years, I grew quite fond of him, and did not find that my disagreement with him led me into guilt, hypocrisy, etc. It's kind of like when you have a family with an older generation that has very traditional ideas on certain ideas, and convictions that clash with yours. My parents and grandparents, for example, had very traditional (and to my mind, archaic) ideas on women's roles and sexual issues. But I love them despite the disagreements. They loved me and nourished me and helped to make me who I am today. And like John Paul II, our elders -- and we -- are inevitably products of our cultural conditioning. Sometimes our conditioning keeps us from developing beyond certain levels. We are all flawed and broken. That is what it is to be human. As much as I would rail against John Paul II's immovability on gender/sexual issues, he would periodically and repeatedly act in a way that deeply touched my heart. Like when he prayed at the wailing wall in Jerusalem and worked to heal relations between Christians and Jews. And when he begged the Missouri governor to spare a condemned prisoner's life. When he spoke explicitly against nuclear proliferation and, most recently, the war in Iraq. His fostering of interrelgious dialogue. And his life as a contemplative, a man of prayer. The humility and radiance of his presence, and his deep love for people. Part of what I love about the Catholic Church is its ability to hold people of widely varying backgrounds, political persuasions (from archconservative to radically progressive), cultures, classes, nations. There is this sense of all of humanity-- messy, wild, broken--wrapped in a compassionate embrace. We Catholics do have our divisions, our in-fighting, our horrible mistakes, our sins, and, sometimes, surprisingly, our occasional breakthroughs . . . But we are all on a spiritual journey, one that connects us to past and future, one that evolves over time. John Paul II was a part of that unfolding. Peace, curlytop

Found on a T-shirt I bought at a Catholic Religious Education Conference in LA this past February: A List of Heretics (leaders and disciples defined as Heretics by Institutional Religion) -- Read about any of them to find out more about the rich progressive strain within Christianity (and within Catholicism, as most of these folks were or are Catholic) Joan of Arc Galileo Johannes Kepler Meister Eckhardt Copernicus Tertullian Martin Luther Menno Simons Matthew Fox Origen St. Zephyrinus The Beguines John McNeil Hans Kung The Franciscans Ivone Gebara Hippolytus Peter Waldo Jesus of Nazareth Tissa Balasuriya of Sri Lanka Henry of Lausanne Clementius and Everard Jonvina Jan Hus Peter Abelard Gerard Segarelli Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (one of my faves!) Patrick Hamilton Imaculate Heart of Mary Sisters of Los Angeles Charles Curran Joachim of Fiore Leonardo Boff John Courtney Murray Theodoret Ebion Thodore of Mopsuestia Lukas of Prague Fratres Unitores John Scotus Erigena Giraude de Lavaur Marguerite Porete Giorando Bruno Bill Callahan The Vatica 24 Call to Action of Nebraska Peace, curlytop

But while I'm here maybe I'll climb back on the soapbox to put my two cents in about contraception . . . I think that Natural Family Planning can be a beautiful way for a couple to express their faith. People who choose to follow this method often find that it deepens their spirituality and enhances their respect for the power and beauty of sex . . . But it's not for everyone. So it should not be demanded of everyone. And many of you may find this interesting: the Catholic Church came so close to endorsing artificial contraception. In 1966, bishops on a commission originally appointed by Pope John XXIII voted nine in favor, three against, and three undecided on the issue of artificial birth control. But Pope Paul VI, in his 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae, rejected the commission's vote and reiterated the official ban on contraception. This pronouncement came as a bit of a shock. Many Catholics of the time assumed that artificial birth control was on its way to being fully endorsed, and started using it. To this day, most of them still do. And I have to admit that the ban doesn't make much sense to me. Through NFP, a couple is allowed to exercise a modicum of control as they see fit. So why not go ahead and allow a couple to choose a method that's more reliable? Okay, the last of my two cents for tonight, Peace, curlytop

Hi everybody: A quote from James' earlier post: "I find it interesting that curlytop equates love with general niceness. Is it less loving to tell someone tha a sin is a sin? To give them knowlege which objectivly coudl help them to save their souls?" I think you make a good point here. Yes, we should offer knowledge that can lead to salvation. It may not necessarily be so-called "nice" knowledge or knowledge that people want to hear. But we also need to take a look at the manner in which we offer that knowledge. If we are not offering it with humility, compassion, and utmost hospitality, how are we going to be vessels of God's all-embracing love? If the people on the receiving end of our "knowledge" feel rejected and condemned by us, then what we have done is not loving. Knowledge offered in the spirit of love attracts and invites; knowledge offered in the spirit of hostility and judgment repels and creates resistance. Love goes way beyond "general niceness." Paul gives us the attributes of love in 1 Cor 13: "Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous. Love is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." Jesus admonishes his followers to avoid condemning and judgmental attitudes: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Only those without sin --that is, none of us -- can throw those stones of judgment. One of the most significant -- and for me, compelling and challenging -- teachings in the Christian tradition, be we Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or what have you, is that we are to be conduits of Jesus's mercy, and leave the judgment to God. Okay, time for me to get down off my soapbox . . . Regards, curlytop

Hey Brother Rog -- Thanks for providing the links on centering prayer. I'm a facilitator with Contemplative Outreach in the southern California area, and have been practicing centering prayer for about 7 years. What a wonderfully transformative prayer... For those interested, there are dozens of great books about centering prayer -- but one I'd highly recommend is Thomas Keating's Intimacy with God. It gives a full introduction of the practice and discusses its history and its rootedness in scripture. Also, a brand new beautiful book by Cynthia Bourgeault: Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening. Interestingly, Keating teaches that centering prayer, a form of meditative prayer that prepares us for the gift of contemplation, is also a form of intercessory prayer. When we are in the silence, resting in God, surrendering and consenting to God's presence and action within, we are in effect praying with God for the transformation of all creation. Not that we should give up our other forms of intercessory prayer -- but simply a recognition that we also can pray for others without using words as we surrender to the heart of the Silent Word. Peace to all, curlytop