curlytop

Hi Jack Twist -- Just wanted to say that I knew who William Sloane Coffin was -- I actually posted an article about him on another board. I haven't been here in a long time because it does often get rather quiet around here . . . I've been spoiled by other boards where people interact more readily, where there's more conversation. And as a Catholic I love liturgy. Liturgical worship need not leave the Word of God hanging in space out of context -- there are many good churches where you get excellent homilies and sermons on the Word in addition to liturgy! (And no, Catholic liturgy generally does not include any Latin, unless you're talking about a Tridentine Catholic church.) Sometimes it is a little discouraging, I guess, to come here and find people who make assumptions about different styles of worship. I visited here once after having attended a wonderful Catholic religious eduation conference in Los Angeles, which included incredibly beautiful, moving liturgical celebrations full of meaning and song and movement, only to find a thread on how Catholics don't sing in church. I was like: I've just come from singing beautiful songs with thousands of worshippers in Anaheim, how in the world can folks be saying that Catholics don't sing? So I had to remember that not everyone has had, or has taken, the opportunity to visit different kinds of churches, that they may be basing their opinion on their childhood experience of liturgy or a few visits to a Catholic church, etc. And one may have to spend time seeking before they can find a church that feeds the soul, whatever the denomination. Or people may live in remote areas, or in places where there aren't many progressive or inviting churches, meaning that they have to find their own way to commune with God. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I love Brokeback Mountain, by the way. Peace, Mary

Thank you for the article, sterrettc! curlytop

Want to talk to God? There's this igod website, where you can actually have an online chat with God. I tried it a couple of times and had some funny conversations . . . After you sign in, you type in your question or whatever you want to say and then click the "repent" button . . . http://www.titane.ca/concordia/dfar251/igod/main.html

LOL, you guys! What do agnostic dyslexic insomniacs do???? They lie awake at night and wonder if there really is a DOG.

Happy really belated Chrismakwanzannakkuh, every one! And Merry New Year. Some of the best satire about the "The War On Christmas" has been on The Colbert Report -- that show that follows Jon Stewart's Daily Show. And Colbert is, by the way, a Catholic. Happy Martin Luther King's birthday too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --Mary

I actually don't mind being called a "heretic" -- some of our most radical saints were accused of being heretics! (And wasn't Jesus accused of blasphemy?) Stereotypes from agnostic liberals include: that I'm narrowminded, prudish or repressed, judgmental, with a simplistic pie-in-the-sky belief system, and that I think non-Christians are going to hell. Stereotypes from conservative Christians include: that I believe in "anything goes," that I am not serious about my faith, that I'm really a new-ager . . .

Inspired by Aletheia's Myers-Briggs postings, I thought I would ask people what their Enneagram type was. There's a version of the Enneagram test (as well as other personality tests) available here: http://similarminds.com/personality_tests.html Admittedly these tests aren't as accurate as the ones you pay to take, but interesting nonetheless! After a workshop on the Enneagram, I know I'm a type 9 but this test had me as either a type 5 or a type 9. (They do share some similarities). So: Are you an Achiever? A Loyalist? An Enthusiast? A Peacemaker? Mary/curlytop

I think that as one matures, one is supposed to become more balanced -- taking on more extroverted qualities if one is an introvert, and vice versa. To be fully "actualized" is to attain more or less of a balance among all the qualities. By the way, how many people know their Enneagram type? I'm a 9, "The Peacemaker." Hmm. . . . perhaps I should start another thread on the Enneagram. It correlates well with the Myers-Briggs typings. I'll go dig up an online Enneagram test . . . Mary

Hi Beach and all -- I don't think liberals / progressives should try to change or "convert" fundamentalists. It is a waste of time and energy. Having dialogues and discussions about differences of opinion can be valuable if they are handled well and approached in the spirit of love and the desire to understand. But heavy-handed evangelism doesn't really work, as far as I can tell. The best way to "evangelize," really, is through our being and through our presence, imo. Christ-centered being and presence, that is. Walking the walk. If Christ's love is in us and we are allowing that love to flow through us in all our words, actions, and deeds, people will be attracted to Christ and Christ-consciousness in spite of themselves. It's really the Spirit that converts -- not our own particular machinations. I see conversion as a life-long process that takes place in overt as well as in hidden ways. In addition, we don't always perceive the effects that our Christ-centered being has on others, so it's best not to set up "changing others" as a goal that requires some kind of evidence as proof of meeting the goal -- which can turn into a game of the ego. Instead, we can be Christ's presence in the world, and let the Spirit flow where it will, doing its often slow and invisible work. Ken Wilber's books and philosophy have offered me another way to look at fundamentalism. He and some like-minded colleagues suggest that people are at various stages of spiritual development. Fundamentalism / literalism is a stage that all individuals and cultures pass through at some point -- it's like the childhood phase of a worldview that can evolve into something with more maturity and depth. Of course it's seriously problematic when people cling to this stage out of fear -- which we see happening all too often these days. But just as we must all be children before we can be adults, we generally have to pass through literalist, magical, or fundamentalist versions of spirituality before growing into something more expansive. We have to be children before we can "put away childish things." Rather than despising fundamentalists or trying to change them, we could look at them through compassionate eyes as brothers and sisters (or perhaps even former versions of ourselves) and pray that the Spirit will work through us in a way that allows them to evolve through this stage (rather than clinging to it or regressing back to it out of fear). We can also remember Jesus' prayer on the cross (which is really a prayer for all of us, no matter where we are on the spiritual spectrum): "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do . . ." I think this all requires great amounts of love and compassion. The truth is, as we continue along in the spiritual journey, more is required of us -- greater faith, deeper levels of patience and forbearance, and greater love. And greater humility, also -- because we certainly don't have all the answers! Peace and good tidings, Mary

I am an INFP: an introverted intuitive feeling perceiver. (Interestingly, my husband is an ENFP -- my extroverted other half?). A couple of times I took the test and scored as an INFJ. Perhaps that means I am an efficient procrastinator! (Hey you other INFPs -- did you know that something like 90 percent of Episcopalian priests are also INFPs?). Here's a quick thumbnail guide to the Myers-Briggs definitions: Extroverts (First letter E) --are outgoing, active, and tend to feel at ease with people --get energized by the outer world --are interested in the breadth of experiences --discover what they think and feel by talking and doing --act first and perhaps reflect on it later. Introverts (First letter I) --are quiet and reflective and prefer relating one to one --get energized by being alone --are interested in the depth of experience --discover what they think and feel by processing information internally --reflect first, then perhaps act Sensates (Second Letter S) --rely on information obtained directly from the five senses --are practical and down to earth; live in the present --are interested in what is at hand more than in future possibilities --work step-by-step in an established way; usually pay attention to details/ Intuitives (Second Letter N) --obtain information through their sixth sense of hunches, insights, and inspirations --are interested in possibilities; use their imagination and vision --like doing things in new ways; work in bursts of energy --focus on the big picture; tend to ignore details. Thinkers (Third Letter T) --use logic and analysis to make decisions --value principles, laws, and procedures --tend to be impersonal, objective, and critical Feelers (Third Letter F) --filter information through their personal values --value harmony; are supportive and empathic --thrive on praise; are sensitive to criticism Judgers (Fourth Letter J) --are relatively structured and efficient --live in a planned and organized way; tend to make lists and follow them --push for decisions quickly in order to have closure (Note: a preference for "judging" does not mean being "judgmental") Perceivers (Fourth Letter P) --are relatively adaptible, flexible, and spontaneous --want to keep their options open and explore new possibilities --postpone closure by taking in more and more information before making decisions Cheers, Mary/curlytop

Here's how this catholic girl scored . . . (see below) The test is flawed because it doesn't allow you to qualify your "agree" or "disagree" statements. For example, I may think the concepts of trinity and incarnation are important, but not in the traditional sense that this test is probably intending them. Anyway, I bet most of us here, regardless of denomination or affiliation, are going to score high on "emergent / postmodern." Twas fun anyway, thanks! --Mary You are Emergent/Postmodern in your theology. You feel alienated from older forms of church, you don't think they connect to modern culture very well. No one knows the whole truth about God, and we have much to learn from each other, and so learning takes place in dialogue. Evangelism should take place in relationships rather than through crusades and altar-calls. People are interested in spirituality and want to ask questions, so the church should help them to do this. Emergent/Postmodern 82% Classical Liberal 79% Modern Liberal 75% Roman Catholic 57% Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 54% Neo orthodox 50% Charismatic/Pentecostal 46% Reformed Evangelical 32% Fundamentalist 0%

I'm not from Colorado, but I was there this summer! If you have an interest in mysticism, meditation, or contemplative prayer, I understand that Denver has a well-organized local Contemplative Outreach network. Check them out http://www.centeringprayer.com. In Snowmass, Colorado (near Aspen) there is a beautiful, quiet, Trappist monastery: St. Benedict's. It's quite a drive -- but a beautiful drive and worth a weekend trip. Have you heard of integral philosopher Ken Wilber? He lives in the Denver/Boulder area. He's a Buddhist who has a great respect for the various wisdom traditions, including Christianity. Check out his books Grace and Grit and A Brief History of Everything. Peace to you -- Mary

My Question: What sorts of Clubs, Lodges, Organizations do you belong to ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Carl -- I am a member of Contemplative Outreach, Thomas Keating's Centering Prayer network. I facilitate a Centering Prayer group that meets once a week. I'm also a (not very active) member of the Ladies Auxiliary of the Knights of Peter Claver, a Catholic social / service organization. Kind of similar to the Knights of Columbus, except that it honors Peter Claver, a Jesuit who ministered to black slaves in South America. I recently joined the Network of Spiritual Progressives after attending their flagship conference in Berkeley last summer. Check them out at: http://www.spiritualprogressives.org. There's a local informal women's spirituality group, Shekinah, that meets once a month for discussion and fellowship -- guess I should say "sistership." And I also go to a once-a-month Ken Wilber Meetup, where we discuss Wilber's integral theory and related ideas. Lord! That's enough groups for one person, dontcha think? My question: Do you think of yourself as having a vocation or a mission? If so, describe it for us. Thanks, Mary

Here's Gerald May's definition of addiction: "Addiction exists wherever persons are internally compelled to give energy to things that are not their true desires. To define it directly, addiction is a state of compulsion, obsession, or preoccupation that enslaves a person's will and desire. Addiction sidetracks and eclipses the energy of our deepest, truest desire for love and goodness. We succumb because the energy of our desire becomes attached, nailed to specific behaviors, objects, or people. Attachment, then, is the process that enslaves desire and creates the state of addiction. . . . Addiction is any compulsive, habitual behavior that limits the freedom of human desire." On the other hand -- "Detachment is the word used in spiritual traditions to describe freedom of desire. Not freedom from desire, but freedom of desire. . . Detachment has come to be associated with coldness, austerity, and lack of passion. This is simply not true. An authentic spiritual understanding of detachment devalues neither desire nor the objects of desire. Instead, it 'aims at correcting one's own anxious grasping in order to free oneself for committed relationship to God.' According to Meister Eckhart, detachment 'enkindles the heart, awakens the spirit, stimulates our longings, and shows us where God is.' " --From Addiction and Grace Oh -- and Aletheia, nature girl -- thanks for the suggestions on the cleanse! I'm now on Day 7 and will have to start transitioning back to solid foods tomorrow because I have a social event involving food coming up on Nov. 20. But wow -- I'm fairly cleaned out now, and really looking forward to stuff like brown rice and vegetables! Peace, Mary

Hi you guys -- I'm a fan of Moore and Teasdale also. I got to see Teasdale at a conference the year before he died. He was wearing his peach-colored sannyasi robes -- and he spoke with a quiet passion about contemplation and action -- what a beautiful presence!! Another book that has had a big influence on me is Thomas Keating's "Intimacy With God." Peace -- Mary

Hi all -- I'm in the middle of an 8-day cleansing fast at present, for both health and spiritual reasons. It's Day Three for me and I'm feeling pretty good. I'm doing the Master Cleanse (aka "the lemonade diet"), and I think it's a healthy fast. For more info, check out: http://www.therawfoodsite.com/mastercleanse.htm Basically I'm wanting to approach nourishment with more of a sense of reverence -- by eating healthier food ( the cleanse prepares you for a healthier diet), by avoiding over-processed items, by consuming less in general, and by supporting organic farmers and producers. I'm also praying to face my various food addictions head-on -- and I seeing this as both a physical and a spiritual problem. So as I'm fasting I'm also going to start reading Gerald May's Addiction and Grace. Peace, Mary

The Original Pancake House rules!!!!!!! We have one just about 5 miles from our house, ever beckoning us to abandon healthier eating habits. Good food for the soul, though. And incredible coffee too! And now I can never have "phony" maple syrup again . . . Yum.

It's hard to say. I guess anything is possible. Rather than overturn Roe v. Wade outright, there could probably be smaller-scale rulings that would go in an anti-abortion direction, such as states being given the power to decide on the legality of abortion within their own jurisdictions. More limitations could be placed on access to abortion -- this has actually already happened in many places. I think it's okay if people want to try to discourage abortion or make abortions more rare, but I don't think overturning Roe v. Wade is the right way to go about it. The government should not be making these kinds of complex decisions for people. Here's my interview question: Have you ever had a mystical experience? If so, describe it. Peace, M.

A friend gave me Spoto's The Hidden Jesus as a gift last year and I've yet to read it! Perhaps the Spirit is nudging me now . . . Thanks, Mary

Aletheia, dear -- I've got to set you right -- King of the Hill is quality entertainment!!

des -- Was that "Wife Swap?" (The show with the title that made it sound more titillating than it actually was . . .) Or did the entire couple switch places? My latest vice is Nip-Tuck. It's pretty far from clean . . . There was also a time when I watched Anna Nicole Smith's reality show. Really terrible, as about as good for the brain as cotton candy. And kind of like lookie-looing at an accident on the highway -- you know it's horrible to look but you look anyway . . . Okay. My Sunday confessions -- Mary

Another organization: The Network of Spiritual Progressives: www.spiritualprogressives.org. They will be having another conference in February 06 in Washington, DC! It will include folks like: Jim Wallis, John Shelby Spong, Joan Chittister, Rabbi Michael Lerner, Matthew Fox . . . I went to the one in Berkeley last summer and it was awesome -- nourishing and inspiring. ~Mary

Centering Prayer looks similar to TM on the surface, but there are some significant differences. For one thing, TM assigns you a mantra that you are to silently repeat again and again. With centering prayer, you generally choose your own one or two syllable "sacred word" that you repeat only when you notice that you are engaged with thoughts. The sacred word (or another symbol such as the sacred image or sacred breath) serves as a means for you to consent to the presence and action of God within. The sacred symbol may seem like a mantra at first, but with practice, it disappears or is used rarely. The prayer becomes very receptive, a kind of "surrender" or "letting go" practice. Another significant difference between TM and centering prayer is that centering prayer is rooted in a belief that God dwells within, at the center of our being. Centering prayer helps to deepen this relationship, and eventually facilitates full union with, the indwelling Spirit. It helps to reduce the obstacles to union with God -- the attachments to thoughts, agendas, and ways of living that keep us separate from God. As far as I know TM is a largely secular and non-sectarian practice. And in its own right, it's quite a valuable meditative method -- since Westerners approach spirituality from a wide variety of backgrounds and different points of view, we need both non-sectarian and religious forms of meditation.

I meditate (centering prayer) most every day and think that it has shifted the trajectory of my life. I have a deeper faith and trust in God, and I sometimes sense that I am being carried along on a current of compassion that "comes in" to my spirit and "flows out" to others. Meditation can be very relaxing, but I don't personally see this as its goal. The relaxation response is a wonderful "side effect," but as a Christian I believe that the ultimate goal of meditation is union with God and selfless service of others. As a means for "not I, but Christ" to live in me. Different styles of meditation can produce different effects, and probably a person has to find the right meditative "fit" for them. Or a teacher or a group that meets together on occasion -- something to provide guidance on the journey. At any rate, meditation on occasion has negative effects because when the mind deeply relaxes, material buried deep in the unconscious can arise -- it's kind of like toxins being released from the body during a fast. We may never even become aware of the specific content of this unconscious material -- it's just that our body has ways of burying emotional material that our consciousness is/was not ready to face. The release of these emotions can be disturbing, but it is usually temporary. However, people with serious mental illnesses (like schizophrenia) or severe personality disorders are not advised to meditate. The best choice might be to find a very gentle meditative method -- one that doesn't allow toxins to arise all at once or too quickly. Then this "purification" process is not so distressing.

Maybe he could say, "Life is like a box of chocolates" a lot. right] LOL, Fred! Okay. Here's a descriptive passage from the beginning of the book. I can now see why I thought of Harrison Ford! Brown is attempting to combine the scholarly geek with the mutedly-handsome: "His usually sharp blue eyes looked hazy and drawn tonight. A dark stubble was shrouding his strong jaw and dimpled chin. Around his temples, the gray highlights were advancing, making their way deeper into his thicket of coarse black hair. . . The hostess began reading choice excerpts from [an] inane article . . . 'Although Professor Langdon might not be considered hunk-handsome like some of our younger awardees, this forty-something academic has more than his share of scholarly allure. His captivating presence is punctuated by an unusally low, baritone speaking voice, which his female students describe as "chocolate for the ears." . . . Langdon forced an awkward smile. He knew what came next -- some ridiculous line about 'Harrison Ford in Harris tweed. ' "