mystictrek

Wow! Thanks for bringing my attention to G-9.0102b! Progress is our most important product!!

Nazi Germany clearly did use Christianity as a justification for its abominable ways over and over again and most of the German Christians bought it hook, line and sinker. God and country. This is actually ominous since that's what seems to be happening here in the USA. Hopefully, our democratic heritage is strong enough to overcome the current madness.

Sounds good. I can't argue with a single word you've said...and yet, I'm troubled by something vaguely exasperating about what you've said nonetheless. There is an oft-times huge gap between what we are called to do and what we can authentically do. Ideally, people of faith would reach out to everything in love; our every move would be drenched in it; the Christ-Life should burn so bright in us that doing the "right" thing at the "right" time should come as natural as breathing. But we both know that this is rarely the case. We've forgotten that this Grace comes after trials and testings, after weaning and winnowing, after initiations, and after countless little deaths and resurrections, and the church, from where I sit, would be best served by focusing there; on providing an adytum, a sanctuary, a community for people who are committed to this process that God initiates and furthers within them. There is ample evidence to suggest that this is what the early church took upon itself...training the called in the Way, facilitating those who are called by providing guidance with knowledge of the "ordeals" of transformation; empowering by way of transmission; and providing nurture through the sacred rituals of our tradition. Then, it seems to me, that the fruits of the Spirit would overflow within and through us, and all our "reaching out in love" would come with the authority of Christ who alone saves. In my opinion, evangelism too often runs the risk of arrogance. It too often claims to know the right way while saying far too little about the awareness from which this right way springs. It is also way too self-protective in its insistence that this right way is the only right way, and thus offers "salvation" too cheaply and superficially in order to "save some" from damnation....and then, worst of all, it will often sit in your living room for hours arguing with you....sheeesh. When Jesus ushered the directive to go out into the world to proclaim the good news the good news was news. When the word rang out it rang out with the authority (a word that shares the same root with the word "authentic" btw) of Justified men and women; profoundly changed men and women who amazed the largely pagan populace of the time because they demonstrably loved one another; not by going around proclaiming some idea of unconditional love, but by living it, and being it. I know that Cynthia will say that I am preaching to the choir again, and I'm sure that she'd be right if she did, but it is important to acknowledge at this point in my diatribe that I refuse to ignore the fact that Christianity has struck a sour note on many levels in the maws of the world. And I must be completely honest in saying that in many cases I find this justified. And I know that the we've been warned that the world would not understand us, but the fact is that the world understands too many of us far too well. It understands arrogance, judgementalism, religious naivete, smugness, irrelevance, injustice and the lot quite well. Dying before you die? so that not you, but Christ lives through you...nah, most "materialists" or "muggles" don't understand this at all. Pity too...because this is the only good news we've got. lily <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This great post deserves a thoughtful and comprehensive response. But I don't have time right now to do that so I will simply ask a question: How do Progressive Christians carry out the Great Commission? I do think there is a huge constituency out there who wants (needs?) a fellowship where they can share their stories and grow in an atmosphere of acceptance which too many churches both "mainline" and "evangelical" are not providing. How do we find these people and bring them "home"? Or do we just have to wait?

Thank you so much. It's a big part of my vocation right now since I have retired from pastoring congregations.

I heartily and respectfully disagree. Everyone knows that we're here. They've heard the message. Down here we even have billboards with pithy sayings signed by "God". I don't understand the urge to evangelize at this point in the church's life; I don't understand the emphasis on growth of population. It seems that energies are needed elsewhere now. Maybe I am in possession of a highly subjective slant here, but from where I sit there are way too many already "saved", already faithful to whatever degree or way to the Christian tradition, who are not in church; who are disenfranchised, disillusioned, and despairing, bereft of community and struggling to maintain their connection to God in Christ, while trying to make sense of the contradictions, assimilate the truths of other traditions not there own, and on top of that, trying to reconcile the "unconditional love of God" that our tradition proclaims with the atrocities and absurdities commited in the name of Jesus everyday. I hear most of you being very reasonable by stating that it is totally unrealistic to "start a new church". I just wish someone would lose their mind long enough to risk it...or at the very least, draw some of that evangelizing energy in and use it to strengthen the foundations before adding a new floor to the tower. But then I don't believe that people are going to go to hell and suffer eternal damnation if they don't come to one of our churches. So I don't "get" the urgency to grow in population. I also don't believe that more Christians automatically guarantee a better world. So? What gives? Why evangelize? Why not instead build a church that is a genuine crucible of transformation? Why not teach the really good news? that Life begins after you die TO THIS LIFE and enter into eternal life with Christ, as a Christ One yourself? that ALL of us are called to be mediators of Gods Good Pleasure here and now? Oops, I'm preaching...my apologies. Why not focus on building a stronger church? If we could only do that, then believe me, they'd come... ...my own little "field of dreams" I guess. lily <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know exactly how to respond because I believe we are in far more agreement than disagreement. Thanks for your thoughts. Reaching out to people in love is something people of faith are called to do. I think progressive Christians often hide our talents under a bushel and don't get out there and let people know how much we love them. I definitely believe any reaching out we do to invite people to our fellowship needs to be coupled closely with our efforts on behalf of peace and justice.

I don't think you have to start a church from scratch but the church you serve in will probably require renewal, renewal, renewal!!! I believe many mainline churches can grow rapidly if people go door to door and proclaim the Good News of God's love. The first question is not: Do you want to spend eternity in the fires of Hell? Instead: Do you want to be part of a fellowship where people try to love each other unconditionally as God does?

The Witherspoon Society (progressive Presbyterians) offers several responses to the TF report > http://witherspoonsociety.org/2005/ttf_final_report.htm

http://pcusa.org/peaceunitypurity/resources/finalreport.pdf The PC(USA) like all mainline denomoinations has been torn by conflict during the culture wars. This TF was set up to try to address some of the issues and bring reconciliation and harmony to the denomination. The key phrase seems to be "process of discernment." The TF steers clear of advocating ordaining GLBT members but doesn't oppose the idea either. I'm usually impressed by the clarity and comprehensivemness of Presbyterian reports and this one is no exception.

As a pastor for 3 decades I think I have seen some of the best and some of the worst of the people who make up the church. I have come to believe that the church does a better job at accepting people with no strings attached than any other organization. We're not perfect but we're pretty good. Clearly some congregations do better than others but all in all I see so much love and compassion. My own denomination, Presbyterian (USA), has a lot to feel good about when it comes to mission and outreach. A lot of that concern and compassion is reflected in our hymns, both old and new. There, I related this post to the topic!

I'm a retired Presbyterian Pastor. I retired early because my wife's career took off and I was ready for a change. I'm trying to write a lot and work on promoting what I call The New Church for the New Age. My website and blog are mostly devoted to this project. I don't see my calling as a call to start a new religion. I simply see myself as a reporter or messenger seeking to bring together and empower people of faith who are working to expand God's realm of abundance, joy, wisdom, beauty, love, truth, peace, justice and freedom. I am promoting 12 disciplines to heavenly awareness: stillness, silence, solitude, simplicity, detachment, discernment, devotion, delight, humility, healing, holiness and heavenliness. I like Baseball and I was delighted last year when the Red Sox finally won the World Series. Now it must be the White Sox turn. Or the Cubs. Did you know that the last time the Cubs won the WS was 1908? and the White Sox 1917? I lived in Boston in the 60s and 70s (Northeastern University & Boston University School of Theology). I lived in Chicago 1980-82 when I got a D. Min. at Chicago Theological Seminary. I lived in Dearborn, MI when the Tigers won the WS in 1984. They got off to a 35-5 start that year. Sparky Anderson was such a great manager, a pastor to his team I think. You guessed it, my favorite movie is FIELD OF DREAMS. I like Rock'n'Roll and wrote my D. Min. project focused on Rock'n'Roll as Play, Protest, Passage and Prayer. Harvey Cox is probably my favorite theologian. I also like John Biersdorf who I had the privilege to study with when I was in Michigan. Harrell Beck, The OT Prof. at BU School of Theology for many years was a major mentor as were several pastors. My favorite all time R&R band is The Who. I need to also mention Chuck Berry, Bruce Springsteen, John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Todd Rundgren, Kate Bush, Peter Gabriel, U2, Van Morrison, Annie Lennox, Cyndi Lauper and the Cranberries. There are more but I will leave that to another discussion. I'm a grandfather now. Emily is now 17 months old (September 2005). My name is John but here I go by Mystictrek. I have lived in NJ, MA, IL, MI NC and now NY (upstate). I have been in upstate NY 1988-2002 and now 2005- . Most recently my wife's career took us to Chapel Hill NC and Amherst MA, 2 great towns. Now we are living in 2 places to be near family (Utica area) and job (Rochester).

Yes. So we need to put a lot of energy into strengthening the true Church which repudiates the claim that our faith is the only true faith and that our faith must be forced on others.

Great advice. I think finding common ground is an important mission so I probably will return to the battle sooner or later.

MOW wrote: That's very true. In his book "The Zen Teachings of Jesus" K. Leong states that he left the church at 16 to find the Tao, and at age 40 he realized he could have found the Tao in Jesus. +++ I think people who switch from one religion to another gain something and lose something. They gain a new perspective especially because they can practice their new religion without a lot of cultural baggage. But they lose some of the good stuff which comes with the cultural baggage. I have great respect for our culture and other cultures but I also can see that each and every culture has a lot of problems. I believe that many of the problems mainline denominations are facing are due to a lot of negative cultural baggage.

I am praising God that I have returned to this forum. This string alone is so full of wisdom and humor. Thank you so much. I think I will hang out here instead of fighting the culture wars over at Yahoo Groups as has been my wont lately.

I hear new age people like Louise Hay and Wayne Dyer talk about the universe all of the time as a substitute for God. I wonder if Universism is much different than Zen Buddhism. Alan Watts wrote a great book,THE WAY OF ZEN, which made it clear to me that any way to enlightenment is a zen way. Some Zen Masters make it a point not to teach anything at all so that those seeking enlightenment realize that there is no particular way to enlightenment but that each seeker must create a unique path. I believe that Christianity lays down some basic rules and then allows us to create a unique path. I don't believe any particular religion has a monopoly on wisdom. I stay Christian because it works for me. Why would I give up so much tradition, wisdom, discipline, experience, theology? Nevertheless the emerging church (what I like to call The New Church for the New Age) needs to embrace so much more than we did in the past. This is quite a challenge and we all resist the challenge, the change, to some extent.

I have come here for refuge from a Yahoo group on politics. The Co-Moderators turned out to be very Conservative and very nasty. They believe that I am even more nasty but I believe that an objective observer would clearly go for them. I have been trying to bring the Progressive message to Conservatives in that group and one other group. I have been trying to point out that I respect beliefs on the Right and the Left and the Center and would appreciate it if they would stop bashing Libs like they do. But I must admit that I can bash pretty well too and I probably deserved at least some of the wrath that I got from these 2 co-moderators. I challenged them too much and there was no trust established, no basis for friendship and mutual respect. I think I learned something. I'm 58 and sometimes I'm still so stupid. My wife points out this trait all the time! My question for this string is: How can we find more and more common ground with people on the Right? How can we get beyond the rhetoric, the spin, the slogans, the bashing? Maybe I am more angry at the Right than I have admitted to myself and that's why I can so easily get into the rhetoric, the spin, the slogans, the bashing. But, then, maybe some of that anger is justified and I need to learn how to channel it constructively. I can get pretty annoyed (not really angry!) at the Left. The Left and the Right are so busy bashing each other that there is not much energy left for the development of practical solutions to our society's problems. Maybe it's not as bad as I perceive it to be. But Bill Moyers, who I admire so much, is very concerned that the government and the media are keeping America very misinformed and misguided. Any thoughts? Feelings?

http://www.peacefulsteps.com/about.stm links to a journey by a young man guided by the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh. I met Jack last fall as he walked through the Northeast. I was impressed by his commitment to simplicity and love.

Here are a couple of links to Thich Nhat Hanh wisdom: + http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?boar...ry_11309_1.html >THICH NHAT HANH - beliefnet interview + http://seaox.com/thich.html >THICH NHAT HANH - bio, Plum Village & the 14 PRECEPTS

CREDO by William Sloane Coffin offers all kinds of thoughts for meditation and reflection.

To call taxation stealing is quite a stretch. I believe that everything belongs to God and we just borrow the goods for a while. Our infrastructure is deteriorating. We the people, through our representatives, have the right to tax, especially tax the wealthy, for the common good of all.

http://www.abundancetrek.com & http://www.abundancetrek.com/blog I offer lots of links to websites exploring mysticism, interfaith dialogue, ecumenical relations, peace and justice, progressive Politics, etc. I have a vision for The New Church for the New Age which is creating the new, most holy, glorious, fantastic realm of abundance, joy, wisdom, beauty, love, truth, peace, justice and freedom. I am writing about twelve disciplines for building this new realm: stillness, silence, solitude, simplicity, detachment, discernment, devotion, delight, humility, healing, holiness and heavenliness. love mt

But where is Leah? love-mystictrek

+ Here's an excerpt from a WaPo article cited in the November 10 post of the Liberal Christians blog: Battling the notion that "values voters" swept President Bush to victory because of opposition to gay marriage and abortion, three liberal groups released a post-election poll in which 33 percent of voters said the nation's most urgent moral problem was "greed and materialism" and 31 percent said it was "poverty and economic justice." Sixteen percent cited abortion, and 12 percent named same-sex marriage. love-mystictrek The Abundancetrek Blog

+ Have you seen this yet? A DAY IN THE LIFE OF JOE REPUBLICAN - author unknown Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to ensure their safety and that they work as advertised. All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for the laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks on the government-provided sidewalk to subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune. It is noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression. Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime. Joe also forgets that in addition to his federally subsidized student loans, he attended a state funded university. Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards to go along with the tax-payer funded roads. He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have." love-mystictrek The Abundancetrek Blog