NT Wright on women preachers

[thormas]

14 hours ago, Burl said:

Time to throw AJ into all this.

I have read her before but never seen her and never seen her like this: she is great.

Good find.

[Burl]

1 hour ago, thormas said:

I have read her before but never seen her and never seen her like this: she is great.

Good find.

She has several wonderful classes online at Great Courses.

[Elen1107]

On 7/30/2020 at 1:06 PM, JosephM said:

Well, i can't agree that people don't have a choice. While they may not be ready at this time to forgive, the choice will remain until they make it or destroy themselves. When Jesus is recorded saying  "as you forgive others it shall be forgiven you " it seems to me he understood that lack of forgiveness was a self destructive tendency from which the only way out is forgiveness of the other. My personal experience is a testimony to that precept. There are physical laws and there are spiritual laws and forgiveness in my view is a spiritual one.

I know people whose parents survived Auschwitz

I've met people who have survived POW camps

I've worked with people who have survived 18 years and more of POW like conditions, as children, at the hands of their own parents

To me it's amazing that any of these people can manage to crack a smile at all. I can fully understand how they are simply unable to forgive. It's enough to let go and put it in the hands of the All Mighty. If the All Mighty can enable them to forgive, fine, until then they need to move on and just have the burden of dealing with it off of them. Letting go and forgetting is one thing, forgiving is another. Somethings one just has to leave in the All Mighty's hands.

[Elen1107]

On 7/31/2020 at 10:28 AM, Burl said:

She has several wonderful classes online at Great Courses.

She is great! Your video lead me to another video of her, she is really great.

 

[JosephM]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

I know people whose parents survived Auschwitz

I've met people who have survived POW camps

I've worked with people who have survived 18 years and more of POW like conditions, as children, at the hands of their own parents

To me it's amazing that any of these people can manage to crack a smile at all. I can fully understand how they are simply unable to forgive. It's enough to let go and put it in the hands of the All Mighty. If the All Mighty can enable them to forgive, fine, until then they need to move on and just have the burden of dealing with it off of them. Letting go and forgetting is one thing, forgiving is another. Somethings one just has to leave in the All Mighty's hands.

Those are extreme examples and i understand the reluctance to forgive but when one realizes that they themselves if they were born into the bodies who did this to them and had the same genetic makeup and life experiences they would be that person. While we may deem one worse than the other the fact is we have all at one time erred and as James 2:10 says " For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." And as Jesus said in Math 6:15 and in the other gospels "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." One can argue against those words all day but if i know one thing in Christianity for a fact by personal experience i know those words to be spiritually true.

Forgetting is not a requirement but forgiving is. We learn from experience by not forgetting but peace comes by forgiveness. Without it there will be no peace and little joy in life. If i am sure of anything in life , that i am sure of.

[thormas]

1 hour ago, Elen1107 said:

She is great! Your video lead me to another video of her, she is really great.

Fabulous..........thanks.

[Burl]

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

Those are extreme examples and i understand the reluctance to forgive but when one realizes that they themselves if they were born into the bodies who did this to them and had the same genetic makeup and life experiences they would be that person. While we may deem one worse than the other the fact is we have all at one time erred and as James 2:10 says " For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." And as Jesus said in Math 6:15 and in the other gospels "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." One can argue against those words all day but if i know one thing in Christianity for a fact by personal experience i know those words to be spiritually true.

Forgetting is not a requirement but forgiving is. We learn from experience by not forgetting but peace comes by forgiveness. Without it there will be no peace and little joy in life. If i am sure of anything in life , that i am sure of.

Forgiveness is the only way to rid yourself of resentment.  It does nothing for the other, but everything for the self.

[Burl]

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

She is great! Your video lead me to another video of her, she is really great.

 

AJ is a treat.  Two things I really like about her:

1) She honors the text down to last jot and tittle, and tries to accurately read what the author intended.

2) She reads in order to ask deeper questions instead of looking for answers.

[JosephM]

17 minutes ago, Burl said:

Forgiveness is the only way to rid yourself of resentment.  It does nothing for the other, but everything for the self.

Couldn't agree more.

[thormas]

20 minutes ago, Burl said:

Forgiveness is the only way to rid yourself of resentment.  It does nothing for the other, but everything for the self.

I agree however forgiveness can do everything for the other - it lifts a burden, it (can) gives new life, it allows for a new beginning.

[JosephM]

6 minutes ago, thormas said:

I agree however forgiveness can do everything for the other - it lifts a burden, it (can) gives new life, it allows for a new beginning.

Obviously you don't agree because your however statement negates agreement with what Burl said  His entire statement is an important insight into what forgiveness really does.

There is no burden placed on the other  by any unforgiveness  you might have. Unforgiveness is the burden.

[thormas]

55 minutes ago, JosephM said:

Obviously you don't agree because your however statement negates agreement with what Burl said  His entire statement is an important insight into what forgiveness really does.

There is no burden placed on the other  by any unforgiveness  you might have. Unforgiveness is the burden.

Obviously you don't appreciate the full use of the word however. I agree with Burl on the forgiveness for oneself but I disagree in that it also does do something (perhaps even everything) for the other. 

I used however in its similarity to nevertheless or nonetheless which is completely valid............thus my statement is sound. 😇  You're welcome!

A buden is lifted from the other in the act of forgiveness. In Christianity, the idea is metanoia and with forgiveness/repentance there is a new beginning (and that, as I said, can be everything for the one who is forgiven). 😷

Edited August 1, 2020 by thormas

[Burl]

The path to forgiveness is holding an image of the person you want to forgive and praying for their health, success and happiness.

Done properly it is the hardest thing you will ever do and it takes a whole lot of repetition.  Years even.

[Elen1107]

What about all the things that the bible says a person should do if they have wronged someone else?

They should own-up/confess - apologize/say they are sorry - make amends/make up for it - change/repent in behavior as well as words.

If a person has done all this, and the person they've done something to can't forgive them, well, then that's on them.

If a person has done all they can to make things right and make things better, and has truly changed and is not repeating the thing they've done wrong, and is not using forgiveness as an excuse to keep repeating the behavior, and not making it the other person's responsibility to set them striate all the time or control them because they can't or don't or won't control themselves,... then they should be forgiven.

If forgiveness is just an excuse for getting away with things and passing off responsibility,... Then there's a limit to it.

[Burl]

56 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

What about all the things that the bible says a person should do if they have wronged someone else?

They should own-up/confess - apologize/say they are sorry - make amends/make up for it - change/repent in behavior as well as words.

If a person has done all this, and the person they've done something to can't forgive them, well, then that's on them.

If a person has done all they can to make things right and make things better, and has truly changed and is not repeating the thing they've done wrong, and is not using forgiveness as an excuse to keep repeating the behavior, and not making it the other person's responsibility to set them striate all the time or control them because they can't or don't or won't control themselves,... then they should be forgiven.

If forgiveness is just an excuse for getting away with things and passing off responsibility,... Then there's a limit to it.

You are conflating contrition, attrition and apology with forgiveness.  Repentance also sits in this lexical domain.

It’s often necessary to forgive people who are dead or otherwise not available for comment.

[Elen1107]

29 minutes ago, Burl said:

You are conflating contrition, attrition and apology with forgiveness.  Repentance also sits in this lexical domain.

It’s often necessary to forgive people who are dead or otherwise not available for comment.

Well, Christ says, if a person says, "I repent" that one must forgive them. He doesn't say if they do nothing whatsoever then  forgive them.

Christ says, (loose quote here), "That if someone has something against you, then go back and make amends - & that no one gets out until they pay the last bit/penny'

Sometimes if someone is dead, people just need to put it in God's hands. If it comes to them spiritually that they have forgiven them, fine. Sometimes these things just come to a person, they realize one day that they have let go of it, if they realize on another day that they have forgiven, perhaps that comes from a higher place also.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Elen1107

[Elen1107]

Sometimes it's dumped on the people who have been hurt to make things all better and alright. While the people who have done the wrong and the harm do nothing whatsoever, or just make things worse.

Sometimes it's the best these people can do just to put it up to God ... say it's not my stuff and put it up to God and keep it there, cause it's not their stuff.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Elen1107

[Burl]

18 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

Sometimes it's dumped on the people who have been hurt to make things all better and alright. While the people who have done the wrong and the harm do nothing whatsoever, or just make things worse.

Sometimes it's the best these people can do just to put it up to God ... say it's not my stuff and put it up to God and keep it there, cause it's not their stuff.

You’re not wrong, but speaking precisely makes a difference here.  “Put it in God’s hands” is vague and a bit callous.

Better to teach them how to put it in God’s hands by praying for the offender.  Why use platitudes when you can be specific?

[Elen1107]

8 hours ago, Burl said:

You’re not wrong, but speaking precisely makes a difference here.  “Put it in God’s hands” is vague and a bit callous.

Better to teach them how to put it in God’s hands by praying for the offender.  Why use platitudes when you can be specific?

If you can teach someone else to put things in God's hands then great.

Some people will be horrid just so they can get other people's prayers and energy, and go around being other people's enemy just so they can get a one way street.

Sorry you think that's a platitude. It's a real thing that people do. It's not callous and it's better than rewarding them for being horrid, mean and awful. Some people are what they want - what they get based in their thinking. If they think they are getting a reward or something good for doing something evil they are going to keep on doing it. They really have no sense of right and wrong or of community. It doesn't help anyone, perhaps most especially them to give them what they can only perceive as a reward for being horrid. 

[JosephM]

Elen,

We can only change ourselves. Yes, we can influence others but requiring others to apologize or repent before we forgive them is to miss the point. The other has to deal with his/her own issues which is mostly not in our power to change. Our issue is to forgive. When one truly sees that to not forgive will harbor anger and resentment unconsciously and make it difficult for us to sense our connection with God and the Oneness of being and joy and peace in our life the choice for forgiveness will come. These are some of the strongest writings to confirm it if you need biblical quotes all from the NT. 

 “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you.

And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

“And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.”

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

As you measure others it will be measured unto you

-----------------------------------

And from a non-biblical perspective of psychology Taken from berkley.edu :

Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.

Just as important as defining what forgiveness is, though, is understanding what forgiveness is not. Experts who study or teach forgiveness make clear that when you forgive, you do not gloss over or deny the seriousness of an offense against you. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses. Though forgiveness can help repair a damaged relationship, it doesn’t obligate you to reconcile with the person who harmed you, or release them from legal accountability.

Instead, forgiveness brings the forgiver peace of mind and frees him or her from corrosive anger.

 

 

[thormas]

16 hours ago, JosephM said:

There is no burden placed on the other  by any unforgiveness  you might have. Unforgiveness is the burden.

You are saying that un-forgiveness is the burden and I am saying that forgiveness of another can remove that burden and give him/her a new beginning.

[Elen1107]

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

Elen,

We can only change ourselves. Yes, we can influence others but requiring others to apologize or repent before we forgive them is to miss the point. The other has to deal with his/her own issues which is mostly not in our power to change. Our issue is to forgive. When one truly sees that to not forgive will harbor anger and resentment unconsciously and make it difficult for us to sense our connection with God and the Oneness of being and joy and peace in our life the choice for forgiveness will come. These are some of the strongest writings to confirm it if you need biblical quotes all from the NT. 

 “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as God in Christ forgave you.

And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

“And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.”

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

As you measure others it will be measured unto you

-----------------------------------

And from a non-biblical perspective of psychology Taken from berkley.edu :

Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.

Just as important as defining what forgiveness is, though, is understanding what forgiveness is not. Experts who study or teach forgiveness make clear that when you forgive, you do not gloss over or deny the seriousness of an offense against you. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses. Though forgiveness can help repair a damaged relationship, it doesn’t obligate you to reconcile with the person who harmed you, or release them from legal accountability.

Instead, forgiveness brings the forgiver peace of mind and frees him or her from corrosive anger.

 

 

I'm thinking that a person can have none of these negative effects on themselves, no resentment, hatred, vengeance, anger, etc. and what this person has done is just let it go and given it up to God.

It's on and up to God whether that person is forgiven or not. The person(s) who have been injured can elect to have nothing to do with it, and leave that decision is up to and with God. If a person wants forgiveness they can take it up with God themselves  

[Elen1107]

On 7/30/2020 at 1:18 PM, thormas said:

Perhaps this is for a separate post but where was he not so brilliant - acknowledging of course that he was a 1st C man writing with the insights and limitations of that time and understanding Jesus in his Jewish context?

I wasn't looking for sympathy for Paul, I was just acknowledging the fact of his commitment. So too Socrates (where do you disagree with Socrates?).

Indeed 'there it is' and it seems rather obvious that some of those people have no idea what writings (as we have discussed) are actually Paul's and/or how to understand him.

 

The time spend with Peter and James is indeed a question as is when in his ministry he visited them. However, without having a definitive answer it is a bit unfair to judge and/or dismiss Paul. Paul and Acts disagree on when Paul went to Jerusalem to meet with the apostles of Jesus. 

Larry Hurtado writes that Paul (the letters, written in the 50/60s) reflects an understanding of what the earliest community was doing in the early 30s: "....Jesus-devotion reflected in Paul’s letters, including the incorporation of the exalted/resurrected Jesus into the liturgical life of believers all goes back to the earliest circles of the Jesus-movement in Jerusalem." The conclusion is that Paul did not invent but inherited the earliest community's take on Jesus. The question is then when and how often did Paul interact with either James and Peter or members of that community who traveled outside of Jerusalem. 

Did Paul receive his knowledge from Jesus directly (as he describes) or did he 'receive' it from others? And there is some interesting commentary on that from some of the scholars.

 

 

There are a number of things about Paul: One is that he seems to be on a kind of selfie in some of his (authentic) letters. He goes on like; wasn't I great, wasn't I all wonderful, wasn't I all that and then some. - - - He tells people, both men and women, how to wear their hair and whether or not to wear something on their heads. To me this is a rather personal decision, people can wear their hair and hats any way they choose to and for their own reasons. People shouldn't go around assuming that people are wearing their hair or hats for one reason or another. - - -  There are a number of challenges concerning Paul, we would really need a separate thread for this. - - -  Back about 10 years ago there were a number of people going around giving lectures and talking about problems with Paul, JS Spong was among these. It's died down some, but the words in his letters are still there so in a sense the problems are still there too.

--------------------------------

Concerning Socrates: He seems to believe in the Greek gods, yeah that's probably all he had to go with at the time, but I still disagree with him. - -  - A quote from Socrates: "The highest form of human excellence  is to question oneself and others". I agree that this is a good and really fine thing, and important too, but I don't know if I would call it "the highest form of human excellence", I'm thinking that there are somethings that are higher and more important.

---------------------------------

I like all this scholarly stuff, I really do, in fact I love it. However I don't think that a person should need to have all this intensive study of different scholars in order to have a good and inspired understanding of Christ. A person shouldn't have to be confronted with so much 'stuff' in order to be a Christian. Stuff like which Pauline letters are authentic or not, or how authentic or true are the books in the bible in the first place, or what verses could have been inserted in Paul's letters or other documents and so on...

On 7/30/2020 at 1:22 PM, thormas said:

Okay but what does that mean from (not from a theistic viewpoint) a progressive Christian perspective?

One just needs to tune into the spirit of Christ, God & or  the H Spirit within themselves to know and discern if an idea is right or wrong or not. It can be the idea that this thread is about, about female preachers, or whether the Eucharist is important or not, or whether certain ideas are really in harmony with God or not. This can touch on anything or everything, what is too much coffee to drink, what's the best way to phrase a certain idea or question, what's the best way to organize  one's day. . .  . .. We can all, God willing, tune into God's or Christ's spirit and have a light and clarity of mind in order to enter and get through life with.   

[Elen1107]

On 7/30/2020 at 2:35 PM, thormas said:

Was Paul or Saul in cahoots with the Romans?

 

Paul/Saul persecuted the early Christians. It's my understanding that he was in cahoots with the Romans while he was doing this. He changes his name from Saul to Paul after he became a believer and falling out of the cahoots. 

[thormas]

15 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

One just needs to tune into the spirit of Christ, God & or  the H Spirit within themselves to know and discern if an idea is right or wrong or not.

Tuning to oneself has not, seemingly, always worked out too well. It would seem that one had to 'check' or measure their discernment against their community or some others of 'like mind.'.