fatherman

Fatherman,

 

>>We may be disagreeing, but we may just not be seeing the whole picture together well enough to know if we are.

 

That may well be the case. So, I ask sincerely, who or what is this God that you surrender to?

 

(BTW, I hope you know that I am not at all mocking you. I am interested in unconventional views of God. My own view is Reality with a possible Cosmic Consciousness. This is quite different from YHWH or even the Father of Jesus.)

forgot to quote. see above

I don't feel mocked! I always interpret you as sincere.

Wow. What a great question. I have never answered this before. So, if I'm claiming that the only God I know is the God I know, then who or what is this God?

This is a god of my experience. I can really only speak about him in my experience. I will start by saying that my experiences with God bear striking resemblances to many others' experiences with God.

• God is a creator. I do not know if he created me, but he is creative with me.
• I sense God's presence when I need him, but not always when I want him.
• God makes no demands, but for me to receive his help I most entrust myself to him
• I have no idea if God has a gender, but he always reveals himself to me as a father. I really want him to appear as a mother because I believe in gender equality, but it hasn't happened.
• God speaks if I will listen. But it's only happened to me once.
• God seems to know what is best for me, and he'll make it happen if I'll let him. So far that hasn't included a million dollars, but he's teaching me how to be a hard worker.
• I've lived a truly fortuitous life, and I do not know if that has anything to do with God. People say I'm blessed, but then, you know, starving Ethiopian kids.
• God steps into my life in a supernatural way when I'm my most broken.
• I suspect that God loves me, otherwise why would he care about me at all? What am I in the vast scheme of things?
• God can heal, but I don't get to decide what or when he will heal.
• God can make good things happen out of bad things. I can't say that I know, but I do not believe that he makes bad things happen in order for good things to happen. I may never know the answer to that, and I'm not sure I even want to know. Also, I cannot say why he does this or if he always does it or if doesn't always do it then why. My belief is that when bad things happen, I turn to God and good things happen. But that's just a belief.
• God is patient. He would wait on me for my whole life or for a 1000 lives to reach out to him.
• God has desires for me. I don't know if he has plans or not, but he definitely has desires for me.
• God seems to care very little about what I do. He seems to care much more about who I am and what's in my heart. I'm talking about whatever is in my heart that is preventing me from being a positive, loving, serving force. Not necessarily for the sake of the world, but for my own sake.
• God's presence as I know it, is in the moment. I've never found God in the past (where my resentments and woundedness and regrets lie) or in the future (where my fears and anxieties await). When I started letting go of those things which were taking me out of the moment, that's really when things started happening.

I think we all have to come to our own understanding of God or higher power or energy or whatever you call it. The Bible is valuable. It gives us a good place to start, but it's just the start. My brother, a pastor, said many Fundamentalists don't really have a relationship with God. They only have a relationship with the Bible. We proxy all kinds of things for a relationship with God. My understanding of God may be about as useless to you as are any of my dreams. How incredibly pointless is it when your buddy spends 20 minutes describing his messed up dreams to you? But could they have significance to him? Definitely. They just have much more to do with him than anybody else. The guys you gotta watch out for are the ones who are having dreams about you and what you should do with your life.

We may be disagreeing, but we may just not be seeing the whole picture together well enough to know if we are.

"But the God of the bible, well, based on the texts, I'm not convinced that such a God is trust-worthy, worthy to surrender to."

I don't know if I know the God of the Bible or not. These men and women of the Bible are just as flawed as we are. They're going to project their desires, preferences, and ego/will on to God. So I don't think you can really make a case for God being untrustworthy or unworthy based on the Bible. We're talking about a God as seen through the eyes of men. Which brings me to a point. The Bible is a narrative of people's relationship with God. It is no substitute for your or my having an actual relationship with God. The only way you can truly know God is to have a relationship with him. I read an autobiography of one of my favorite Authors: Pat Conroy. I feel like I know him, but if I saw him on the street he would contradict me on the matter. So God of the Bible...I know the God who I'm in a relationship with. That's the only God I actually know. And this God is worthy. If you meet (not just read about) another god who is not worthy, please share about it. I'm very curious about this god.

"But, as I've mentioned before, I don't know how to discern the will of God. "

I do not claim to be able to discern God's will except perhaps in hindsight. I surrender, and things happen in my heart. I don't know if it's God's will for me to do this or that or drive to work 5 minutes late in order to avoid a wreck. My experience has been about what it is in my heart. Removing elements that are hindering my ability to be everything I can be. Giving me new desires for the things that nourish me or the people in my life. The greater Will of God? If there is such a thing, I will likely not be able to discern that. Perhaps you are thinking of God's Will has an object/idea/action that determines the course of all human events. Perhaps God's Will is simply the will it takes to sustain a Universe with life. Perhaps it's about God's will that there be peace on earth. Or perhaps God's will is a bad term, and God's DESIRE is more applicable. God has given us the freedom to choose (please don't go back to the free will thread!). I don't think he ever takes that away to assert his own will in our lives. Could be dead wrong about that. But God desires good things for his children, just as I do with my children. I've heard a lot of stories from different perspectives on this which contradict the goodness of God, but I have no personal experience to contradict it...so I'm sticking with it.

I realize that people having relationships with God where the God is a real entity that can communicate and such is a scary idea. Is God informing Pat Robinson on the crazy sh!t he says? He seems to think he is. There is scripture for identifying false prophets, but there really isn't any way to know. So does that mean you're willing to throw away an opportunity to have a relationship with a good and loving God, because of a few a-holes in a book written thousands of years ago and a few deluded, manipulative idiots?

That would be like refusing to get married because there are abusive, cheating spouses out there. Does that mean there is something wrong with marriage? Maybe for some. But I'm sure glad I'm married.

It's ok for us to disagree. I do not need you to agree me. I'm just hoping you will at least consider what I'm saying here.

What a shame that the quality of the recording is so low because it is clear that there is talent behind the piano and mike!

Thanks for sharing that!

 

I grew up in a family of musicians and singers and studied music as well at a Christian arts college, but never considered myself a rock star, just wanted to use the talent within church circles. But since my faith shift I have not played my guitar or piano for a church band, nor led worship since. I don't miss the christian stage much, but I do miss jamming and singing with others and am afraid that I'm getting a little rusty...I hope those things are like riding a bike .

 

When it comes to surrender I'm a little confused as to what that means exactly, because unlike you, most of my life I've been in a submission, self-sacrificing mode. In other words, always putting my desires on the back burner and giving first place to other people's desires. There is something unhealthy to that, but hard to put a finger on because of the Christian idea of surrender and self-sacrifice. So I always thought I was doing the right thing and that God would look after me and my desires. But it seems it's not as simple as that. Trying to figure that one out is hard. My conscience conflicts with my emotions and experience.

 

Take Australia for example. I grew up there and love it there. My soul flourishes in Australia, as though I was born to live there (I was born in Germany). I was living in Sydney when I met my Dutch husband, who was there doing Bible College for 2 years. It was my intention to live in Australia for the rest of my life and certainly never wanted to live in Europe again. Europe has a dampening effect on my soul. I knew all of this and so did Bram, but when we got engaged our pastors convinced us to move to Holland so that Bram could finish his studies (studying medicine is very expensive in Australia). I didn't want to, but seeing I was used to always putting my own desires second I relented and we had a verbal agreement that we'd come back to Australia when he was done...big sacrifice on my behalf knowing he still had 5 years to go and then still needed to specialize...another 5 years! So at least ten years away from Australia. He gave the impression that living in Australia would suit him just fine, so I never thought it would come to this...

Once we were here though I noticed that Bram started showing signs of having no intentions of moving back. Especially when our kids were born...at which point he made it clear that he wasn't planning on moving back (he's very close with his large family and wanted our kids to grow up with them in their lives). You can imagine that at this stage I started feeling trapped. Bram put it down to his own ignorance at the time...when we made the verbal agreement he couldn't have known that he'd end up feeling attached to Holland. So now that the agreement was broken and in Bram's mind no longer valid...who's desire would weigh heavier? His or mine? I'd given him the little finger...or should I say the whole arm and it was clear that he wouldn't have any scruple taking the rest, with or without my permission. For years this was a sensitive subject that always ended in raised voices, so we decided not to talk about it until we got closer to the end of his specialisation...meanwhile I prayed, feeling abandoned by God on the matter and imprisoned by my own choices. I felt selfish and guilty for wanting Australia, so I felt I'd lost any right for God's assistance in the matter. All the while angry at Bram and myself. Those were tough years. About 6 months ago, so 10 years later, he finally came around and said he'd be willing to move back with me...not that he wanted to, but he couldn't deny that it was only fair. He still thinks it's a bad idea and will not serve our children, but he's willing to do it. He still regularly gives me the room to change my mind and let us stay in Holland , which still gives me the feeling that I'm expected to surrender my desire.

Now I realize that this story makes Bram sound like an #*@hole, but he's not. This is just another one of those human struggles, everybody has them. I've disappointed Bram plenty of times and have my own share of needing forgiveness.

The reason I'm sharing this is because of the confusion this causes in regard to surrender. Is surrendering to God perhaps something different to surrendering to other human beings? That would make sense. While feeling hopeless that I had any right to be moving back, I prayed daily that God would either take away my desire to live in Australia or to change Bram's heart. Is that surrender? I don't know. Somehow surrender feels like more...like I had to let go of Australia all-together, but I just couldn't manage. I didn't know how to shut down my love for Australia, my yearning to move back...it just simply was there, how does one let go of something like that? Is surrender willingness to let go and in my situation be willing to live in Holland for the rest of my life? I could have decided for that, but even just at the thought I could feel my heart shut down. Something inside would break, I could sense it. For my own sanity's sake I had to hold on to hope that despite my selfishness (as perceived by Bram and myself and others), God might actually turn the tide somehow and make a way where there seemed to be no way. That was my prayer...pretty much all the time. It became my mantra.

 

Because I felt I had no right, it was hard for me to trust God... and tried to tell myself that what God had for me would be better than what I had in mind for myself...even if that meant Holland.

But what about "He gives us our heart's desires". Dude, seriously, I was confused and in pain and angry.

 

An atheist, feminist friend of mine feels I need to discover my autonomy and stand up for what I want...none of this weak surrender stuff! If I don't help myself it won't happen...others will not do it for me, others have their own desires that they'll push through, unless I take my stand. That's the gist, fight for yourself, because nobody else will.

 

I think the healthiest approach is somewhere inbetween, still trying to work that one out. Something along the lines of: I don't need to get rid of desires...I can't anyway. Let myself feel what I feel, communicate what I want, even work towards it, but trust that God will turn hearts where necessary, even if it's my own...and that in doing so things will become clear as time progresses.

 

Is that your idea of surrender?

Marvelous illustration, and a tough struggle. I relate on a few points. I bent my will to the desires of my wife for years, and I resented the hell out of her. When I changed my tune on it and began asserting my desires, she did not object at all. The struggle was in my mind the whole time. I'm not saying that's what's going on with you guys, but what I was doing was not surrendering, it was avoiding conflict. The main difference between surrendering to a person and surrendering to God, IMHO, is that a person, except for some parents when you're a kid, really has no idea what is best for you. A parent has a better idea, and a God has THE idea about what is best. Although I've experimented with surrender over the last decade or so, I was never willing to surrender all until this year. So my views on this have limits.

You're very close to what I'm talking about and experiencing. You do not, nor could you, get rid of your desires. We want what we want! But you surrender your desires to the care of (or Will of) a God who knows what will ultimately lead you into a greater happiness and into greater service to the world. Because the truth is, you don't have the knowledge that God has. Your way of doing things is less effective or in my case, totally disastrous! Let me further illustrate.

Let's say you have this bicycle, and it keeps breaking, but you love your bike so much and are unwilling to give it up, despite the fact that you have to get a ride from your friends on rainy days. You do your best to fix it, but it's crap. You don't have the tools or knowledge to make it right. So you surrender it to a bike mechanic. He returns it to you in working condition. Now you know that if you ever need it fixed again, you can surrender it to the mechanic. So every six months, you take it to the mechanic, $100 a pop.

Let's say you have the same bike which keeps breaking, but instead of giving it to the mechanic, which costs a lot of money, you give it to your father who knows everything there is to know about bicycles. A couple of weeks goes by, and no bike, but you are patient because you trust your father. Then one day, with not so much as a word, you find a brand new car waiting for you. You are thrilled! Are don't miss your old bike at all. You never had to give up your desires. And now you can pickup your friends when it's raining.

The first scenario is surrendering to a person. You trust the mechanic, but ultimately he does not understand or care what's really best for you here. He knows what's best for himself: receiving $200 a year. The 2nd scenario is surrendering to God. God knows that that bike is going to continue to fall a part until you finally wreck it and hurt yourself. In other words, your attachment to it will hurt you in the end. He gives you something in return which you never asked for and could never have afforded. It comes with the added bonus that it will allow you to be in service to others, which you are happy to do.

Lest this sound too materialistic, let me say that this is about desires, not the money theology that has become so prevalent. You see, the daughter saw no other solution than fixing the bike because she was so attached to it. She looked to her own will, then to another persons will, but ultimately to God's Will. Let me further say, that the daughter did not sacrifice anything in the end other than her own weak will. She was overjoyed with the results. She got what she needed, without ever knowing that she wanted it. There is a cost when you surrender your will to another person. They may steer you wrong, they may steer you right. They may take over your life, they may empower your life. But ultimately, out of their ignorance and selfishness, the endeavor will fail. The cost of surrendering to God is giving up your anxieties, fears, and selfishness. That's a big price to pay, but well worth it.

What a neat story! I'm guessing your family was happy with the change aswell?!

I like your pragmatic approach to staying in the moment. I do think that is very important.

 

Yes, I have noticed that the views expressed on this site are very divers, which makes it so interesting (and sometimes overwhelming).

It's good practice for me to handle different views...letting them rub off on me to an extent of my choosing and without losing my sense of self.

 

I pray that one day I might find a similar church to yours. Until then, I can live in the moment and learn from you all!

 

You said you surrendered music to God. And you also mentioned in one of your posts that you are the music director of your church...is that what came out of surrendering music to God?

What did you do with music before then? Do you have anything online? I would be curious to have a listen...

I've been involved in church music all of my life. I decided I wanted to be a music minister professionally in 2011. I see it as a calling. Over the years I've sung in operas, jazz, music theatre, and given recitals. I've played in an orchestra, polka bands, and even a country band. I teach choir and private voice. I have a degree in music. I chose not to go pro as a singer (perhaps I didn't have what it took anyway) because I wanted to be a present father and husband. But I resented it. I've put music first so many times. That's what musicians do after all. I was very selfish about it, as if it were more important than anything else in my life. It was the last thing I would surrender. When I say surrender, I mean I'm willing to give it up if that's what God desires. How do I know what God desires? Well I'll never know if I do not empty myself of my desires. That leaves a space for God to put his desires in my heart. And when that happens, you'll know it. Everything just becomes easier. No fighter, no struggling, just going with the flow. However, I suspect that I have that musical gift for a reason, and I will be led to it. Perhaps I'm already fulfilling it. Surrender, to me, goes back to Jesus's teaching. We have to lose our lives to gain them. I'm only just starting to understand this. God desires a life for us greater than the life we can give ourselves if we just surrender and trust. I don't believe that because it fits my theology. I believe it because it is happening. Don't believe me. Believe what works for you.

As far as my music online. Hmmm. It's mostly embarrassing stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_hahypwo0A

Perhaps it depends a little on the person. Let's say you are disheartened about losing your job and you ask me to pray for you. If you are open to the possibility that prayer can affect change, and let's say that being open means accepting whatever God's desires are for you, now we have something to work with. We have a relationship: you, me, and God. Now the possibilities have multiplied. I've become mindful of your situation, and you know that I care about you. You've become open to God. And God has been invited into both of our hearts. This can't be a bad thing. Now will it mean that you get a job? Maybe not. But does it mean that you are relieved from anxiety about it having put your trust in a power greater than yourself? Now we're talking. One of you mentioned just taking things as they come, the truth, and enjoying the ride. That requires some kind of trust. Trust in what? In God? In the natural order? In yourself? Otherwise, how can you enjoy the ride?

These are good ideas, but I'm still not sure about any of this. I believe in praying to God. I don't think there's anything wrong with asserting your or others' desires with God, but I just don't think it works. The only thing that has worked for me is surrender. And how can I make someone else surrender with intercessory prayer? Maybe the best I can do is be a good friend. To let someone know that I care.

Ethiopian kids. That's has often been a litmus test for me. Would it help me if I was in Africa starving to death? I've never been to Africa. I have seen a number of interesting documentaries, and there are starving children, but there are also strong communities, faith communities, and strong spirits. Let's say I or my children are starving. Does that mean that I cannot have faith? Does that mean that I cannot have joy or love or peace? I wouldn't know, but I do know that there is a difference between pain and suffering. And perhaps pain is all one of those kids have ever known. But I wonder if there are people here in this country who are not starving who are suffering more than some child in Ethopia who is starving. Again, I wouldn't know. But I wonder.

But the question is: can prayer alone help the starving child in Ethopia? I just can't imagine that it would. God created a world where there will always be starving children. Jesus is quoted as saying "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me." I don't really want to get into what that might mean, but this is an acknowledgement of that truth. And Theodacy has had it's just time on this forum, so I'm not getting into that either. I suspect we already have the resources to eliminate starvation. We, as a species, have been unable to make it happen, but it's possible. Perhaps that's where the prayer should go. I believe it's been mentioned, but I believe that my praying for those kids opens ME up to spirit-led action. That is something we can all agree on...yes?

Thank you for your honest, realistic (and gracious) response!

Reading your response gives me a sense which I'm having trouble putting my finger on. (I'm thinking and processing aloud here...I hope you don't mind, because I'm focusing on my own quest right now...I am interested in yours too .)

I'm comparing your approach to mine and am trying to word what you do differently, because I see how relaxed you are about having differing views and how you stay true to who you are despite sometimes feeling like a square peg (at least, that's the sense I get reading your post, please correct me if I'm wrong). I think for me my views still define me a tad too much. My beliefs used to be my identity. My views shifted causing my identity to unravel, and I can feel myself looking for a new identity. Perhaps I shouldn't be looking for a new belief system to define me.

Sure my views are a part of me, but they are not the sum of me, actually they are relatively a small part of who I am (I realize now).

So perhaps I should be looking at the rest of my person, my essence and let that define me, my views only being a part of that, after all, views change all the time. The essence of who I am doesn't. The fact that I can change my mind is a beautiful thing and something I want to celebrate as a part of being me, being human, being alive.

This is a profound, new thought to me...something I need to process a little more.

Losing my identity was and still is painful, perhaps I've been looking in the wrong places to soothe that pain.

This new thought would also be the key to getting me out of my head and more into the deeper places, where faith is and where I sense God the strongest. You're right, intellectual study won't do that for me. I think intellectual study has helped loosen me from past prisons of thought, but lately study has caused me more anxiety than freedom and I think I understand why now.

 

"But my personal beliefs don't seem so significant there. I think that what they really care about is me."

 

That's what I mean. That's what I want to give myself too. Not make my beliefs so significant and just learn to be me.

 

"Perhaps that's the kind of church that would work for you?"

 

For sure! That's exactly what I'm looking for! How did you find it?

But then I do wonder, seeing we are (also) intellectual individuals, do you get enough stimuli in that area in your church, or do you all stay away from those kinds of discussions because of the vast array of different views (not wanting to upset anyone)?

I think I'd still enjoy conversation...I just want to learn to stay close to my inner sense while talking about matters of belief (and be able to stay relaxed about it, not letting it determine my identity).

Is there conversation about beliefs in your church? And if not, do you miss it?

I guess you could always split it...go to church looking for one thing, and come to forums like these to get the intellectual side?

Is that how you do it?

When I wrote that post I was suffering from my identity. Identity is how we want to identify ourselves and how we want others to identify us. I was so attached to it that it was limiting the possibilities of my life. In August, I started a journey of shedding my identity. In the morning, I began praying a pray of surrender. I started by surrendering the struggles which I felt powerless against. Then at night, I prayed gratitude. Eventually, as my heart and mind began to change, I began surrendering other parts of me until eventually I surrendered every part of me, which was scary at first. I'm a musician and I've put that above all things, including my family. It's my identity. But I gave that up to God to do with it whatever he will. I found one day, that God had removed my selfishness and replaced it with a desire to take care of my family. Keep in mind, I didn't ask for these changes. I basically had been praying Thy Will be done for 90 days. I've never been happier. My life has never been better. I no longer suffer over this.

I do still have beliefs. I believe in prayer. I believe in God's will. I believe in service, compassion, kindness, and love. But the most important thing I believe is the moment. I believe that God is in the moment. God is not in the past or in the future, at least not in a way that is available to me. Anything that ties me to the past, then, brings me out of the presence of God. That can be identity, resentment, beliefs, pain, guilt. Anything that ties me to the future, anxiety, ambition, fear, brings me out of the presence of God. It's a lonely life away from God.

Of course my church discusses belief, but I rarely do. I've found that it is a double-edged sword. There is benefit from learning from others, but there is conflict as well. I tend to stay out of it. This site, however, is good place to work things out. You would think that everybody here is like-minded, but there is actually a huge diversity of perspectives here, and there is much to gain from that if you're willing for your ideas to be tested by super smart people!

"For sure! That's exactly what I'm looking for! How did you find it?"

I didn't find it, it found me. I just wanted a job. I did not expect to find a church home.

 

Hello Fatherman,

It was interesting to read your list, especially because I found myself agreeing with most of it (while still having many questions) and also identify with the square peg syndrome .

I can see why some of the things on your list will have caused you to feel like a square peg in a conservative church...I grew up with their theology and can predict their responses (even having questions will make you "square").

But I don't quite understand how you would feel like a square peg in a progressive church (I am new to progressive Christianity)...?

From the reading I have done on the emerging church so far I was kind of getting the idea that a progressive church would welcome everybody's unique experiences and ideas as valid, without judging something as too this or too that, but instead simply letting it be there and including it in the ongoing discussion.

But it seems your experience differs from my initial impression?

Is my first impression of a progessive church perhaps a little naive?

They talk about being inclusive and accepting, but perhaps seeing they are still human, they cannot help but label others (starting with evangelicals) as "too much of x,y and z"?

Anyways, as you can see I am trying to figure out whether a progressive church is the way to go, seeing that, like you, I am a square peg in a traditional/evangelical church.

I was hoping to be able to find something where similar views to yours would be welcomed and that I wouldn't be labelled with a "too" for my own thoughts. Am I expecting too much?

I guess if you are right, then I am also still too "Christian" for the progressives?

Do I maybe just have to accept that labels are part of human nature and therefore inescapable? Adapt a sort of *@#*-it attitude and follow Christ as authentically as I know how?

Seems a little lonely to me...

What are your thoughts on that?

If we're honest, we're all a bit of a square peg! I don't think we were made to conform to a dogma of any sort, progressive or otherwise. I know progressives are not supposed to have a dogma, and certainly it's not really a written thing (unless you count books by Spong), but I have found that there are certain ideas that get some resistance from progressives. That's fine. I was really upset once I began deviating from the beliefs of some of the members of my former (progressive) church and received some resistance. I started to feel out of place with using the name Jesus, especially in the same breath as words like divine, savior, or salvation. I've let that go since I wrote my square peg post. Most of us are fearful of or uncomfortable with some idea or another.

This church developed into a safe haven for people (mostly identifying as Christian, but not all) who felt beat up or rejected by other Christians, especially family members. I understand the significance of that. Something that our community needs, especially for LGBTQ folks. And so I understand that me expressing some of the same ideas that some people felt wounded by or which were attached to some sort of woundedness, may have been perceived as a threat to a sanctuary of sorts.

A cornerstone of progressive Christianity is inclusiveness and acceptance. This is true in the acceptance of other religious, other spiritual paths, LGBTQ, atheism, and so on. But I see 3 blind spots in that church. Race, socio-economic/education, and anything perceived as Christian conservationism. Which seems ironic to me because all religions have an orthodox branch which is accepted by PCs, except Christian orthodox..unless it's Greek or Coptic or something foreign. I say race and socio economic, because although this church wants to be inclusive, there are virtually no minorities or working class members. With race, the worship style just doesn't attract people of color. It's just super white. With economic/education, progressives tend to be very intellectual with their faith. In this church, nearly everyone has at least one college degree and earns a middle class salary. I'm not sure it can be helped. I make no apology for being educated, intellectual, and well-to-do, but I believe that a faith that requires academic accomplishment might need to be rethought. Faith of a child.

I do differentiate faith with intellectual study. Study and debate certainly informs faith, but it is not actually faith. In some cases, it may be a lack of faith. We have to fill that hole with something.

"too Christian for the progressives". I'm chuckling here. I've felt that way, but I try to give folks a little more credit. There will always be some hard core, anti-savior, anti-spiritual, atheistic Christians who will fight you and question the validity of your presence in a progressive church, but most won't.

Currently, I'm a music director at a moderate Methodist church. There are liberals, conservatives, working class, doctors, black, latino, asian, Native American, disabled all in a representative ratio. The one thing lacking is openness with LGBTQ. They're there, but not open. This will change. We have a high school student who is transitioning female to male. People will respond in love even if they don't all understand. It's not a political church otherwise the mix of perspective would be disastrous. It's just a focus on worship, fellowship, and mission. They're not breaking any new ground. Just serving together. I feel much more at home there, not because I agree with everybody. I don't really want to go to a church where everybody has to agree. I don't really share my beliefs that much. I'm on staff for one. But my personal beliefs don't seem so significant there. I think that what they really care about is me.

Perhaps that's the kind of church that would work for you?

I am also very intellectual and am a philosopher by nature. And our talks on this site are mostly that. There are many reasons to take biblical scholarship very seriously, and I do. What I'm saying is that I'm not so much questioning your approach as trying understand your end goal.

If it is simply good discussion then carry on. It's a really great topic, and there are some amazing scholars and thinkers here to really dig in to it. I just felt very compelled to ask.

Wow Wonnerful, you have done your due diligence!

Paul and Mark. I believe they were speaking to a contemporary audience. Paul, in particular, was writing to specific churches. In that time, taking up your cross might truly have led to a crucifixion or some such. But I'm not convinced that this was what Jesus was talking about when he said it. The people in his times were perpetually confused about his words. Which were literal? Which were spiritual/metaphorical? We may never know for sure. But I think there is more to taking up your cross than physical martyrdom. In fact, that may be the least of it. I don't need to rehash Joseph's ideas on that.

"when I read these texts word for word from a scholarly perspective, they have less and less relevance to me"

I think you hit the nail on the head there. You're reading from a scholarly perspective something that isn't scholarly at all. It has very little relevance from that perspective.

I have a rather blunt, but prayerful question for you. What are you hoping to get out of the Bible?

I agree wholeheartedly with Josephm on this, but I want to understand your opposition to martyrdom a little better. You've likened it to suicide. If I joined the military, do you consider that suicide? I will join knowing that I may die in the service of something I believe in. Let's say I'm captured by terrorists, (I realize this in an extreme case, but I want to better understand you), and I've got a gun to my head knowing that if I say I'm a Christian that I will be killed. Is that suicide?

As far as the pro-martyrdom goes, I agree with you to an extent. And in the time of Roman resistance, being a follower of the Way opened up the possibility of death and torture, but to what end? The ultimate end is the foundations of a way of life...of love, compassion, selflessness, and forgiveness. Personally, I'm grateful for those martyrs who died in the name of Christ. Perhaps if the deaths were senseless, meaningless, I might see it differently.

I spoke with my brother who is a pastor and a life coach. He told me what he does. He does believe in it, but when someone asks him to pray for them, he sometimes prays with them on the spot. But when he can't pray with them, he focuses on the person instead of what they are asking for. In the example of my daughter, his focus was on her anxiety over the job. He published a book that tells stories of the power of praying for and with people. He also sometimes just asks them what they want him to pray and he prays it with the intention of adding the power of his prayer with there's. It's an amazing book.

http://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Encounters-Changing-World-Time/dp/1449751946

I still have mixed feelings about it. It is perplexing, I agree.

If I had the gift of tongues, I would be more likely to leave my doubts behind on this. Intercession is not necessarily an act of the ego. It is an act of love, and I think that is different than a personal prayer in which I insert my desires which could be greatly misguided by my ego.

Guys, if this is already a thread, please link.

I've reached a point in my path where I'm just not sure what to do with intercessory prayer. When someone asks me to pray for them, I don't want to say no, but I also just don't know what to do about it. I believe in the power of prayer, but I don't believe in giving God a shopping list of things I or other people want. I've tried and tried and it never works. What has worked for me are prayers of surrender. I also believe in praying with someone who I'm physically present with. My daughter is trying to get a job. She's already interviewed. She asked me to pray. So what do I pray? Do I pray that she gets it? Do I pray that God's will be done? Do I pray for God to be present with her?

I'm just not sure that that's the way that God works. I can encourage her to put it in God's hands. I can counsel her to let go of her worries and accept that it is out of her control. But who am I to know God's "Will" for her? I cannot, and I'm not sure God really cares if she gets the job or not. The God of my understanding is a God of relationship, not choreography. Then again, my understand is so finite. Sometimes, I just do it anyway because I love people.

Thoughts?

BillM. I'm not a fan of anybody, including the Bible, defining God for me, either. Nor would I want anyone to define who my wife is to me. I've learned who she is by being married to her for 22 years. Remember that story about the blind men and the elephant? One guy has the leg, the other the tail, the other the trunk. So an elephant is different for all of them. That's kind of how I see it. I've never met the war God, or the vengeful God, if indeed there ever was such a God. That God is named Jehovah. Then there is the aspect of God (or perhaps another God altogether) named Elohim - God of Creation. Then there's God the Father whom we know through the stories of Jesus.

Same God, different limbs?

I do not know. What I believe, though, is that God will reveal himself to me in whatever way or form and on whatever timeline that he chooses. Whether it is a way that makes sense to me or in a way that goes against what I believe; otherwise, I'm just making a God. And I'm not really that good at making a power greater greater than me.

And like you said, and maybe it's most important, it's working for me.

Fatherman, the fact of the matter is that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on this subject. I don't believe that God is in control of us and everything that happens in our world. I don't believe our world is going along according to some divine will.

 

Having said that, most of scripture does support the view that God is "sovereign" or "lord" and "God works all things together for good (but only of those who love him." There is even a verse that says that if evil befalls a city, God has done it. God does what God wants to do. He doesn't consult us. He sends hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans. He invents AIDS to punish homosexuals. He killed my granddaughter in a car accident and I have no right to question his will. Whom am I to say to the Creator, "Why hast Thou created the world this way?" I am but dust and clay.

 

This is precisely why I am a non-theist.

You are misunderstanding me. I do not believe God is in control of us at all. I believe that if we leave behind our egos and self-willing desires and surrender, that God can work with us. If we choose not to do this, I believe that God will do very little with us. And by doing for us, willing for us, I do not believe God will necessarily give us instructions or something. God will change our hearts in a way that frees us up to be better servants to the world.

EDIT: When I started doing this, I was very afraid that God would send me here or there or something like that, but what I'm finding is that what God is doing is removing things in me that are impeding my ability to serve, and replacing it with new desires to serve. If that new desire is to feed the hungry in Latin America, then it will be because I have a strong desire to do it. Or if God wants me to take better care of my family, it won't be my trying and struggling and resenting it, it will be because I want nothing more in the world to do it. This is my understanding of how God's Will works for me.

Fatherman, the problem has always been, for me, how are we to know what God's will really is?

 

Now, Christians will say that God's will is revealed in the bible, especially in the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. For any situation in life, we can crack open our scriptures and find out what God's will is for us.

 

So let's take the issue of sickness and healing, as long as we are on that topic. If we are sick, what is God's will for us?

 

Well, though I don't have my bible with me at the moment, here is a paraphrase of what James, Jesus' brother, says is God's will for the sick: "If there is any sick among you, let him call for the elders of the church, and the prayer of faith will raise him up." This is, according to the apostle James, God's will for those who are sick. Go to church and the prayer of the elders will cure the sickness.

 

So why do Christians go to doctors and physicians? Why do they seek out and trust the same resources as the "ungodly" use. Why do they use medicine?

 

James never says to go to the doctors or to take medicine. He says that the prayer of the elders is the cure-all for sickness. So I would think it safe to say that, with few excepts, Christians DISOBEY God's will concerning sickness. This is, IMO, why most Christians, though disobeying the will of God, get over their sickness.

 

I am also not one to subscribe to the "let God do it" type of theology. My daughter, a committed Christian, smokes 3 packs of cigarettes a day. She knows the dangers. And if I try to talk to her about it, she responds, "Daddy, if God doesn't want me to smoke cigarettes, he will take away the craving." So she is a big believer in the notion that if God wants to do a thing, he will do it -- without our input or help.

 

In my studies of the gospels, I never see Jesus advocating a "sit back and relax, just trust God" attitude. He certainly believed that God was active in the world. But he seemed to advocate that we, as humans, join with God in what God is doing. So the kind of determinism that I see in Calvinistic Christianity is, IMO, a severe distortion of the teachings of Jesus. I never see him saying, "Let go and let God." His central teaching is that we love God and love one another. God, IMO, is not going to do that for us.

In my experience, God's will is not something that we will ever necessarily know except by the changes that occur in our hearts when we surrender to God's Will. I'm not sure about God's Will when it comes to events and stuff like that. My only conscious experience with it are changes that I feel that God has made in me when I gave up on my own failed attempts to change and turned it over to God. And the change that is made in me is rarely the change that I'm desiring. It is the "desiring" that gets in the way. What is God desiring? Which would I rather have in my life? What I desire or what God desires? That's a choice will all have to make. These are the question of God's Will that make sense to me.

Good thoughts, BillM.

I had a thought on the way to work this morning that speaks to this guilt or sense of failure when it comes to praying for healing.

We don't get to choose the changes we want in our lives. And certainly cannot choose the changes in someone else's life. These attempts will fail. How often have you failed your New Year's resolutions? These attempt are driven by our own weak, egotistical, and uninformed will. It is only, in my experience, by surrendering all that I am and have to a will greater than myself (for me that is God) that change can and will occur. A change of an all knowing, all loving will. All vows and resolutions made on human will will fail eventually. We cannot improve ourselves or heal ourselves easily or for the long haul. Only God can in his own wisdom.

I have lived with so much guilt over my inability to correct my defects. But when I let God have a shot at it, a daily endeavor, miraculous changes have occurred and continue to occur. I'm talking about my physical defects or winning the lottery. I'm talking about deeply needed changes in my heart. There are no magic words, as others might have us believe. The words don't mean anything without honest intention or by giving up our intentions altogether!

I've been to one healing service, at a Presbyterian church of all places. There were two pastors, my father and his colleague. I was suffering chronic back pain. The doctors were useless. I figured I had nothing to lose. A pastor laid on hands and prayed that I might find healing. A few days later, my finance and I went up to pick out some wedding stuff. I sat and read a magazine. In it was an article about back pain. It said that 80% of back pain is psychosomatic. It suggested having a little talk with your back. "Thank you back for trying to handle all of my stress and anxiety, but my brain is going to take over." I did it. It worked. Never hurt again.

So did that guy heal me? I don't think so. His prayer was that I find healing. Did God put me in the right place, at the right time, with the right magazine? That's a matter of faith. That's a choice to make. I could say, Well, all that guy did was help me think about looking for some possibility to deal with this, so I was just a little more observant. Or I could say that he prayed, I said amen, and God healed me. Or I could say that that moment unlocked my body's ability to release pain. Maybe it doesn't really matter. When the doctors failed. And I failed. I gave it up to something outside of my control. God or a deeper layer of my body or just another person. The results are the same. And gratitude is still in order. Because of my faith. I believe that God healed me and it started with my willingness to surrender the problem.

What you're describing, BillM, is something I struggle with as well. There are a lot of deluded or not deluded crooks out there. I do believe that there may be a few gifted individuals in the world that can raise their vibrational energy (spiritual mumbo jumbo) to a level that can heal. I also suspect that being healed doesn't give you a lifetime guarantee. Have you ever been around someone that was so full of joy and love that you felt better physically? Think about love making. Great painkiller. But that stuff goes away eventually. It doesn't last, it can't last. So yeah, the lady in the wheelchair stood up with a surge of powerful energy in the room, or in the preacher, or in herself (your belief has made you whole, Jesus said). Just like a mom can lift a car off of her child. A surge of chemicals can work temporary miracles.

Indulge my rambling speculations.

 

I am trying to find if grace has any significance in Progressive Christianity and if so, what does it mean to a Progressive Christian?

On the PC website, I found this: http://progressivechristianity.org/resources/progressive-christian-ideologies-on-grace-or-faith/ For the author of that answer, grace plays no part in PC. Is that the general consensus or does anyone here find it relevant to PC?

 

I believe Marcus Borg to be representative in many ways of PC. He has something interesting to say about grace her.

“Jesus died for our sins” has been understood. Among some Christians, it is seen as an essential doctrinal element in the Christian belief system. Seen this way, it becomes a doctrinal requirement: we are made right with God by believing that Jesus is the sacrifice. The system of requirements remains, and believing in Jesus is the new requirement. Seeing it as a metaphorical proclamation of the radical grace of God leads to a very different understanding. “Jesus died for our sins” means the abolition of the system of requirements, not the establishment of a new system of requirements.”

Marcus J. Borg, The Meaning of Jesus

So I'm not sure if this has been touched upon previously in another post, but I just wanted to ask because it's such a big part of my life at the moment.

 

I have a friend who is part of a church who professes to be a "prophesying" church. I just went there the other day and their Sunday service consisted of spontaneous worship with people dancing and screaming in the aisles. Pretty much doing their own thing and it was very wild. But the main thing is that this church CONFIDENTLY believes that supernatural events occur everyday within their fold and it stems from their faith in God. And they also teach a doctrine that is very much Fundamentally Evangelical, albeit with a lot more young folks in skinny jeans and beanies.

 

But my friend is a very spiritual guy who has told me face-to-face that he has performed healing miracles, demonic exorcism, and has experienced visions in which he has conversed with, wait for it...Jesus himself. My friend is probably the best guy I know: he's funny, cool, makes no effort to put up a facade of pretension, and perfectly sane. He's about as normal as you get but when we talk about these things he just lights up with joy and sometimes its hard for me to deny. He would have no reason to lie to me about these things.

 

So I guess my question is what do you guys think of the people who continue to perform miracles in the world - I'm sure you've heard the stories or met someone who's encountered it - but continue to hold on to this fundamental doctrine of "fallen world must be saved"? I have my own personal pet theory but the rest of you?

I'd like to make a few comments that might fall under the category of deranged;

1. This style of worship may be akin to other sects in other religious in which an ecstatic state becomes a means of getting close to God. I've attended a similar church and I found the chaos to be overwhelming, but then again I grew up Presbyterian. This exact opposite!
2. I don't know what "prophesying" church means, but I do believe in prophets. These are people who through their relationship with God gain a greater understanding of the world around them and where it might be headed, and with that understanding the seek to raise the awareness of the people around them, the country, the world, or just a friend. If it means speaking in tongues, that's of interest to me. I have two brothers, a Presbyterian minister, a Unitarian Universalist. Both progressives. and both experienced a spontaneous speaking of tongues. I thought it was utter bullsh-t until it happened to people like me. I don't really know what to make of it.
3. Ok, now to your question. I believe in miracles. I believe that the only one that can perform one is God, though God may work it through us. There are a lot of charletons out their for sure. But I have experienced miracles in my life. I'm not sure that it even really matters if you believe that what inexplicable thing happened to you is a miracle or not. The important part is the gratitude. The miracles in my life never happened because I prayed that it would happen. Lord, give me a raise. Lord, heal my sickness. Whatever. It happens when I surrender my will and my struggles to a power greater than myself. I call it God. I think it's a miracle that I'm learning not to be so selfish after living my entire life that way. I think it's a miracle that my wife and I found our way back to each other after a separation. I think it's a miracle that I quit drinking.
4. A little talk with Jesus. What I'm about to say may cause some eyes to roll, but that's ok. I've rolled my eyes a few times before. God speaks to me, and so does Christ. They have all kinds of ways of being in relationship with us, and that includes talking if you allow yourself to be open to it. This is essentially what a mystic is. It's someone who doesn't just meet God in the scriptures, the people in their lives, or in the music. A mystic (which your friend might be), is wired to make conscious, direct contact with God and Christ. I don't believe this will happen to everyone. It doesn't need to. No one should feel bad about not experiencing God or Christ in such a direct way. Perhaps it's best to withhold judgement with your friend and others like him.

    

   But here's the problem with all this. It's a HUGE problem. People can be deluded, and maybe I'm one of them. That can be dangerous. Perhaps this happens, when the ego is the driving force behind a person's relationship with God. We can twist, unknowingly, God's words to bend to our own desires. We can also manipulate people who are convinced we do have a direct line to God. God has never guided me to correct someone's wrongs, to fight to deny someone their rights, to condemn another human on any grounds. God is a lot more interested in my burdens, my defects, my "sin", my well being, and in teaching me to serve. And you don't have to be a mystic to surrender those things to God.

5. Fallen world must be saved. Boy, that could mean a lot of difference things. Are we all going to Hell if we don't say some magic words? Are we born sinners and only a relationship with Jesus can fix us?

   I don't really know about the rest of the world, but I know that I've "fallen" many times and I credit God for picking me back up and dusting me off. It is my belief that we are all born absolutely perfect. And the spiritual journey is not a journey forward or up, but a journey back to our perfect childhood state. Because we, because of genes, parents, events, and choices become mired and jaded and hurtful and resentful. Maybe that's sort of what Jesus was talking about when he said that to enter the Kingdom of God (not talking about an afterlife here), we must do so as a child.

It's good to have friends who see things differently and experience things differently. What's really important is whether these things that he is saying are true. It's that he's a great friend. As you said "he's funny, cool, makes no effort to put up a facade of pretension, and perfectly sane. He's about as normal as you get but when we talk about these things he just lights up with joy and sometimes its hard for me to deny. He would have no reason to lie to me about these things."

""Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"

 

I'm not convinced that we really choose our beliefs, Fatherman. What I mean is that I tend to think that life presents experiences to us and we simply find ourselves where we are, believing what we believe. And then, as you have said, we find confirmation bias in others. This doesn't mean that our beliefs can't or don't change. But I don't think any of us wake up one day and say to ourselves, "I think I'll change what I believe today." I think our changing beliefs are due to our changing experiences, growth, and knowledge.

 

I don't know if I would give up my journey, but I wish I had been smarter younger.

Smarter when younger. This brings to mind a struggle I had a decade or so, probably still in the archives of this site. It may not apply to you at all. I looked back on my previous views with disdain. I found that I sometimes projected that onto others. That's a little different than the regret, if I'm interpreting you correctly, you feel about not having been being smarter. Perhaps that would have saved you some misery or confusion, or whatever causes you to regret it. At some point I had to come to terms with or perhaps even forgiveness for my previous self. The thought that changed all that for me was "Who am I to say that I won't look back in the future with the same disdain on myself today?" That was humbling for me. It really obliterated my false notion of certainty about what I believe in the present; the notion that I am right. Maybe I am right about something here and now and given my circumstances, but I would bet that I will see it differently in a decade.

I thank you Jen for your posts and in particular for this nugget: "any major choice we make affects the way the brain wires itself...When we make major choices about our religious or spiritual beliefs, we give instructions to our biological brains to go ahead and start rewiring circuits to support and reinforce our major belief systems." : this why it seems to me that guiding someone who is at the start of a new process of spiritual searching is important to them as once they start down a path, it will be hard for them to back out. I know this from personal experience as I was in my late teenage years a very conservative Christian, who abandoned that baggage and became an equally conservative atheist. A spiritual vacuum lead me to Buddhism and Tolle then not finding what I needed there, back to atheism. Now I am a liberal Christian. I want to help people avoid such a complicated journey if I can.

 

Thank you Joseph for the link to resources. From one of the articles on the main organisation site, there's this link which I found quite helpful regarding labels:

http://www.christianevolution.com/2014/02/should-progressive-christians-called-Jesusists.html

 

Definitely people are free to label themselves how they choose and I understand that coming out with an entirely new label might well be counterproductive. My point is how someone can use a label that will be helpful in explaining what they believe/think to the uninitiated based on choosing an existing religion that fits more closely the beliefs/values he/she has. It seems to me that if a person draws an equal amount of inspiration from Buddha, Krishna and others as from Jesus, then using the term Christian is less helpful when mentoring or giving personal testimony to others than something like progressive Baha'i which covers all those teachers. My impression though from the posts I've read is that some people seem to draw more inspiration from Buddha than Jesus or other teachers as much of what they wrote seems to me to be quite close to Zen Buddhism (at least from my knowledge of it my earlier life and particularly from Buddhism Plain and Simple by Steve Hagen).

 

For those who are inspired by Buddha, what do you feel are differences (if any) between Zen Buddhism and progressive Christianity?

 

 

" Now I am a liberal Christian. I want to help people avoid such a complicated journey if I can"

I know few people who have had as complicated a journey as me, other than the people on this site! I'm not convinced it could have happened any other way. In fact, I would not wish it to. I learned so much from that journey. There could have been no shortcuts for me. What's ironic is that in many ways I found myself right back where I started from when I was a preacher's kid in a Presbyterian church. The difference, though, is that I have a richer understanding of what it all means that I probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

A short example. I had no clue what Grace meant, until I was in dire need of it just a few years ago. You don't have to be a Christian to experience grace, btw. Only my life experience could have taught me that. It changed my perspective once again!

I'm not sure becoming a Progress Christian or anything else is really a choice. One's perspective is often shifted due to life experiences. It may feel like you read something or someone told you something that really changed your mind, but I wonder if these were simply views that helped you articulate and express what was already in your heart.

Now, where I've seen your desire to avoid complicated journeys in action is when someone from an abusive church tradition found that there was something else in the world. Case in point, a good friend of mine was Jehovah's Witness. He was also gay. He came out knowing that it would mean 100% ostricization from the church and his family. When he visited the progressive church I was attending at the time, he was overjoyed to find that there was another way. I don't know his journey, but the shift for him seemed to be dramatic.

Would you give up your journey?

 

My apologies Jen, I was under the impression that you thought Christ was literally the son of God.

 

Regarding Mystics ... I like this quote from Joseph Campbell

• But the ultimate mystical goal is to be united with one's god. With that, duality is transcended and forms disappear. There is nobody there, no god, no you. Your mind, going past all concepts, has dissolved in identification with ground of your own being, because that to which the metaphorical image of your god refers to the ultimate mystery of your own being, which is the mystery of the being of the world as well.

It sort fits my monism (world view)

Concerning mysticism. When a mystic reaches a state of formlessness, the possibility of there finding nothing, though that may be the case, is not absolute. This is a state where your shoulds and shouldn'ts fall away.

You may believe that you shouldnt find yourself or God, but to reach the formless state, one must surrender all ideas and ego.

What i've found is my soul pattern communing with a greater source, God if you will. Egoless and formless. I believe that God can be formless if that's how he chooses to reveal himself, but it's really up to God how he reveals himself.

This could be a new topic, but it could only be specilation. Is there really a Truth? That is the very heart of all faith and Faiths.

Guys, I've been rereading recent threads and realizing that my perception of them were colored by a bit of bipolar mania. I'm much better now. My posts don't show it, but they were motivated but all kinds of negative feelings. I bring some baggage to this site which doesn't really have anything to do with any of you. I'm prone to a little drama because of this stuff.

I see, in retrospect, a lot of really good discussion some of which has had positive impact on me.

I'll give it another try.