minsocal

Personally, when it comes to computers, I don't think we really have much to worry about. Some of the assumptions mentioned have not held up all that well in the last two decades. Is it really the case that a computer passing the Turing test is "conscious"? According to Roger Penrose, (and others) there are tasks that human consciousness can complete that no computer that passes the Turing test will ever be able to accomplish. John Searle notes that a "simulation of consciousness" is not consciousness. Is a simulation of a hurricane the same as the real thing? Others note that the computer is running a program that was created by human consciousness, not another machine, etc. You might also check out Searle's "Chinese Room Argument" (google it for all the pros and cons). A computer can "process/translate" English into Chinese according to a lookup table and never understand Chinese. minsocal

From Wikipedia.com "Progressivism is a political philosophy whose adherents promote public policies that they believe would lead to positive social change. As a broad characterization of political leanings, political progressivism mostly refers to social liberalism, social democracy, or green politics. Progressivism may also mean prefering moderate change, as opposed to minimal or maximum change. In this sense, it is contrasted with reactionary, conservative, as well as radical ideology. Progressive logic is the value logic that gives an underlying unity to this diversity of views." (and) "Progressive Christianity has a long history in American politics. It focuses on the biblical injunctions that God's people live correctly, that they promote social justice and act to fight poverty, racism, and other forms of injustice. There are also some groups that take an inclusive approach to all life, human and non-human and place a positive value on the earth, as God's creation. Progressive Christians see themselves acting in the public sphere." I grew up in Wisconsin in the 1950's in an environment that closely matched both definitions above. I'm in the "moderate change" category because larg scale change can lead to: (a) unintended consequences that may be hard to correct (such as creating new marginalized groups) and, ( a high level of change seems to be correlated with high levels of fear and anxiety. This can lead to reactions such as "returing to the past" where things are more comfortable, etc. It's one thing to be in a group that desires change and quite another to be in the group expected to change! minsocal

I'll be listening for the music when I get there.... maybe I could find Jerry Garcia and join in? minsocal

"I am lying at this moment." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And... "It's abnormal to be completely normal." minsocal :

Thank you Cynthia, I think these verses are a reminder that inclusive really means "all". While I truly enjoy all the debate and dialog, the questions and answers, I keep coming back to this message in it's various forms from time to time. For me, it brings with it a feeling of peace. (and thanks Altheia for the verses ... ) minsocal

A little girl was talking to her teacher about whales. The teacher said it was physically impossible for a whale to swallow a human because even though it was a very large mammal its throat was very small. The little girl stated that Jonah was swallowed by a whale. Irritated, the teacher reiterated that a whale could not swallow a human; it was physically impossible. The little girl said, "when I get to heaven I will ask Jonah." The teacher asked, "what if Jonah went to hell?" The little girl replied, "then you ask him." minsocal

I like this comment very much. The word "trust" makes it easier to express myself. I can now say that "trust" is something i do (verb) in contrast to something I have (noun). When I use the word "belief" I take it in the sense of the correspondence theory of truth, meaning that it is my responsibilty to match (make sure that) there is a correspondence between what I hold to be a fact and what is a fact in the "real" world. This is in contrast to a "desire" where something in the "real" world must change to match my internal state. Out of this I could say that "I once longed to trust God, and now I do." (etc) minsocal

Joseph Campbell in The Power of Myth said "You see, religion is really a kind of second womb. It's designed to bring this extremely complicated thing, which is a human being, to maturity, which means to be self-motivating, self acting. But the idea of sin puts you in a servile condition throughout your life." minsocal

Ahhh ... 30 minutes! Now I understand. I'm relatively new here too. Welcome !

I agree with Borg. DiSanto & Steele in Guidebook to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance talk about Yin and Yang as being an "egalitatian dualism". They then add that this is in many ways similar to the Gestalt principle of figure-ground. Both are necessary and, with practice, one should be able to switch from one to the other. The philosopher John Searle makes this concept part of his theory of general consciousness, implying that all dualisms are in a sense an illusion. C. G. Jung reached a similar conclusion, stating that spirit and life are "two sides to the same coin" and, in the end, might turn out to "be one and the same thing." For Jung, all dualisms are complementary. minsocal

Speaking from my own experience as a gay male and UCC member I can say that Progressive Christians can, and often do, "walk their talk" when it comes to this issue of accepting and welcoming diversity in their communities. The church I attend has been "open and affirming" for about 12 years and has openly gay, lesbian, and transgender members. It is sometimes difficult to put this experience into words, but I will offer a few observations. First, I initially selected this church because of it's "OA" status. Any doubts I had were dispelled within minutes of walking into my first worship service and I became an active member four weeks later. Second, in this particular congregation, my status as a gay person has never made me self-conscious of my so-called status as a minority. The feeling of openess is almost as natural as breathing. Of course, experiences vary from congregation to congregation and all that I am saying here is that Progressive Christians certainly have the potential and the will to make the celebration of diversity a concrete reality. As to the movie ... it's a remarkable artistic achievement that transcends the "gay issue" ... well, that's my opinion anyway. minsocal

Sorry for the multple postings. I intended to edit the previous one but the option was somehow not available. I agree that we should not dependent on God. I think that the model of a well functioning adult relationship is helpful. The emphasis would then be on mutuality rather than dependence. This implies a complemetary relationship of autonomy and connectedness in the absense of tyranny. The "door metaphor" works well in this respect. I'm thinking of the kind of door on hinges that work in both directions and without locks. The door remains a boundary that functions out of respect and not brute force. minsocal

I'm wondering if the "door slammed in your face" might be a useful metaphor. I let my imagination wander on this and up came the question "Which door slammed?" Perhaps there are many doors. For me, I get the feeling that the door labeled "rational" closes quickly these days. I think I wore out the hinges. Lately things have gone smoother when I open the doors labeled "intuition" and "feeling". How many other doors are there? I have no idea. minsocal

Agreed. That was my point. It seems that there is a wide range of perspectives within denominations and that finding a good fit can indeed be frustrating.

What do I use as a replacement for attending the Kingdom Hall and the dogma I was taught there? I read ... A LOT. For the past few years, reading has been my "church." I read anything that touches my heart, brings me to "thin places" and closer to God. This includes philosophy, poetry, theology and science. I meditate. I garden. I sing. I pray. I talk to people on bulletin boards and with my husband. All that said, I'm seriously considering going back to church (probably a local Episcopal church), because Christianity is social, and I've been isolated for a long long time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In the category of "for what's it's worth" ... I isolated myself "for a long long time" (35 years) from church participation. I re-discovered a part of myself on returning. I was unsure at first, being an intuiting - introvert ... but it has slowly worked out for me

I live in Canada and, after upbringing in the Roman Catholic Church, abandoned religion for many years until returning nearly five years ago. I knew from the get-go RC wasn't gonna work (boring services attended mostly by people who go out of guilt) and ended up going to a seeker-oriented new church for several years until switching to my new wife's Baptist (not southern) congregation. It's not really up my alley, but she's been a member there for 20 years and the relationships made there are important to her. My point? I'm a progressive Christian and would rather attend a church where following Christ is actually meaningful in people's lives. I could attend a United church, which is much closer to my spiritual path, but find most liberal churches become social clubs attended by people who don't much care about their spiritual walk. Yuch. Lukewarm liberals are a major turnoff for me. Can anyone tell me why so many liberal Christians become so lukewarm? Frank King Whitby, Ontario <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I quess I should say that the UCC church I found happened to be led by Pastor Fred Plummer who recently retired and will become president of TCPC in January ... not quite the average UCC.

How odd. While on vacation recently I decided to re-read some of my Anne Rice novels and had this feeling that she was expressing a progressive tendency! This impression was mainly based on her 1994 novel Taltos.

Lot's of good commentary here. I would add that acceptance of uncertainty (tolerance of ambiguity) is frequently considered a positive attribute of individual, moral, and spiritual development. Some have gone so far as to claim that variations of all major religions have stressed this point for at least several thousand years (sometimes referred to as type "B" religious sects). Unfortunately, these seem to have always been a minority.

Yet another introverted - intuitive: Your Type is INFJ Introverted Intuitive Feeling Judging Strength of the preferences % 89 75 50 1 However, the MB is not consistent with Jung's original theory ... it seems to be a blend of Jung and Hans Eysenk ?

The philospher/ historian Michael Foucault wrote: "I like discussions, and when I am asked questions, I try to answer them. It’s true that I don’t like to get involved in polemics. If I open a book and see that the author is accusing an adversary of “infantile leftism” I shut it again right away. That’s not my way of doing things; I don’t belong to the world of people who do things that way. I insist on this difference as something essential: a whole morality is at stake, the one that concerns the search for truth and the relation to the other (Rabinow, 1997)." (italics added) Yet, as Christians we must speak out against injustice, but how? "The person who stands firm does not have to be 'right' to be of benefit to the group ... [one] is not attempting to influence or change others, but simply stating, 'this is who I am; this is what I believe' (Kerr & Bowen)."

I am from Orange County California (fourth most conservative in the country). I began my search at the United Church of Christ website: http://www.ucc.org/index1.php I found what I was looking for at the first church I visited and have been a member there for three years.

Thanks for the kind welcome! Most of what I know about Janet is from The Disovery of the Unconscious by Henri Ellenberger. C. G. Jung frequently cited Janet's work (he attended Janet's lectures for a semster in 1906). Jung and Janet were both highly independent thinkers. I am of the opinion that Jung is, in part, postmodern. Jung made no secret of his distrust for "isms" as "one-sided attitudes" that distort our ability to grasp reality. minsocal ...

Hmmmm ... no really strong association. Moltmann - 53% Paul Tillich - 47%

"Progressive Spirituality" has a history. The following is a summary of what Pierre Janet wrote in 1926. It is from The Discovery of the Unconscious, (Ellenberger, 1970): What Janet calls "progressive tendencies" is the highest development of individual and original conduct. On this level man achieves his own unique individuality, but he also recognizes the fullest individuality of each one of his fellow men, establishing with them a relationship of spiritual intimacy. The search for individuality extends also to events, notably to historical ones. Janet arrives here at one of his favorite speculations, which he expresses in veiled terms: "We grow in time like plants in space." This means that the evolution of man, even of man as a biological entity, is open toward the future. In that regard, Janet seems to agree with certain thoughts expressed by Bergson in his Creative Evolution. "Evolution," he concludes, "is not finished, and human action has been and will be a source of marvel."

Hi all, I'm a member of a Progressive IUCC church in Orange County California ... Emergent/Postmodern - 79% Classical Liberal - 68% Modern Liberal - 64% The label "postmodern" bothered me at first, but I admit it makes sense IF it means "critical" as in critical thinking and NOT "critical" as in putting down.