Davidsun

17 hours ago, Davidsun said:

Whatever you have made of yourself thus far, so will you be hereafter. And when you reincarnate, you will bring that same nature with you. To change, you have to make the effort. This world is the place to do it."

Speaking of 'growing' further in the above regard, I have reached the point where I more or less simply pray that whatever soul or souls my attention happens to focus on _receives_ whatever experience(s) would best stimulate/trigger its or their 'higher' soul-actualization and development - same prayer for everyone whether I 'like' them (based on my hierarchy of values) or not. And I aspire to 'act' in accord with such prayer when and in whatever ways may be personally possible, recognizing that such possibilities do not always exist.

Yogananda on soul development;

"Don't depend on death to liberate you from your imperfections. You are exactly the same after death as you were before. Nothing changes; you only give up the body. If you are a thief or a liar or a cheater before death, you don't become an angel merely by dying. If such were possible, then let us all go and jump in the ocean now and become angels at once! Whatever you have made of yourself thus far, so will you be hereafter. And when you reincarnate, you will bring that same nature with you. To change, you have to make the effort. This world is the place to do it." -- Read more: https://www.yogananda.com.au/gurus/yoganandaquotes07c.html

6 hours ago, tariki said:

Bye, Tariki. I recognize that many think. feel and believe that 'all' will be 'saved' and I appreciate your taking the trouble to state your disagreement with my thesis.

In relation to this world in which 'all things must pass', the 'spark that started 'Christianity', Jesus hiimself, said: "yada, yada ... All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall … many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure [by keeping on keeping on being loving in relation to Life’s Flow and others in it!, IMO] unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:6-13); the implication here IMO clearly also being that those who don’t ‘endure’ (so) won’t be ‘saved’ in this regard. ‘[Saved’, as used here, meaning psychospiritually sustained and retained as soulful components of Life’s Flow despite the complete reshuffling of all of the physiosocial ‘cards’ in Life’s worldly ‘deck’ taking place as a historically ‘old’ Way of Life ‘dies’.]

I am just going with what Jesus said, not what the folks you are going with think

I am truly 'sorry' that you find my way of expressing myself 'boring', etc, That alone precludes us from being friends.
 

 

 

I posted this in response to a meme by Rev. Caleb out out Progressive Christianity's FB Feed.

"Everybody's in, Nobody's out" is an over-simplistic, feel-good fantasy, IMO. The FACT is that there are people who 'descend' into being UNloving and UNjoyful, who, unless they 'reverse' course, since LIFE _is_ an ex-press-ion of Love and Joy , ultimately 'spiral' into Spiritual Death. For those who believe in 'reincarnation', _stop_ Living (spiritually speaking), because there is _no_ 'kernel' of Love and Joy left _to_ reincarnate. Those who 'hide' this FACT from themselves, by electing to live in the above 'feel-good' fantasy are basically _avoiding_ grappling with the implications of the FACT that _some_ 'make it' to 'heaven' (spiritually speaking) and others don't. Their's is a 'Pollyanna' religion, IMO.

Anyone out there who wants to conversationally CONFRONT this issue? 😎

Most ‘Christians’ still don’t ‘see’ that the passage: “His disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias [the Greek transliteration of the name Elijah] must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:10-13) clearly indicates that Jesus personally ‘saw’ John the Baptist as having been the (prophesied) reincarnation of Elias. And, because they haven’t read and so haven’t thought about what’s been clearly stated in historical accounts pertaining to early developments in Christianity as a social movement for the same reason, said ‘Christians’ remain unaware of the fact that, like Jesus, many of early Christianity’s members (Origen being just one prominent example) also embraced the idea of reincarnation and understood it to reference a phenomenal aspect of Life’s process. So ‘Christians’ generally still continue to ignore and dismiss the implications of the fact that belief in reincarnation was only declared to be anathema by the Fifth General Council of the Church in 553 C.E. in the course of the Roman Catholic Church Hierarchy’s ongoing quest to establish itself as a centralized, “Souls have only one ‘chance’ of getting into ‘Heaven’ and that is by way of giving absolute credence to what we say the truth pertaining to Jesus and his teachings is and unquestioningly obeying our edicts in said regard during their (presumptively, then) one and only earthly life” dictatorial authority.

My own understanding deriving from what I have heard as well as read on the subject is that, analogous to the way it takes many years of ‘schooling’ wherein initially ignorant and unskilled novices are tasked with learning and given the opportunity to master increasingly complex ‘lessons’ and thereby, upon ‘passing’ greater adeptitude-demanding ‘tests’, progress through a series of ‘grade’ levels to the point where they finally ‘graduate’ from vocational training programs and schools of knowledge, it takes numerous physical lifetimes for ‘young’ souls to become masterfully adept at deploying their ‘inner’ Love and Joy ‘program’ in relation to Life and others in it in the context of the infinite psychospiritual possibility containing ‘stream’ of sometimes mind-n-spirit sparking opportunities and sometimes mind-n-spirit daunting challenges that are encountered in the course of living in a matrixially multi-layered, complexly interwoven physiosocial system such as ours.

I wonder what the views of others here are pertaining to the issue of reincarnation and ‘soul’ growth and development leading to ‘ascension’; that is, the possibility of ultimately becoming completely spiritualized (in the sense of ‘eternal life’ experiencing) beings. I don't hear 'Christians' talking about this even though this was what Jesus often talked about as a possibility (in my opinion based on his word, at least).

1 hour ago, romansh said:

If you had read what I had written I did not presume cause and effect or their absence. I simply wanted to understand what you think the implications are for the concept of free will.

I think I have made myself as clear as I can in response to how I read your previous comments. Have nothing to add..

4 hours ago, romansh said:

I suspect you are just proselytizing your understanding.

On subject ... do you believe in cause and effect? If so how does this give us free will? If cause and effect are false, then how does this give us free will?

I am _presenting_  my understanding(s) for exploratory consideration and possible partial or total agreement or disagreement by intelligent others in a discussion context. You want to pejoratively (dismissively?) pigeonhole that as being 'just proselytizing'? That's fine with me - but that's on you, fella.

Regarding your question - that's another 'pidgeonhole' of yours (in my opinion). I do not think in terms of 'cause and effect' when think about the activities of INTELLIGENCE. I think in terms of the possible range of choices which may (or may not) be made by intelligent beings in relational or dissociative 'responses' to various life-situations. Your 'cause and effect' pidgeonholing limits thoughtful consideration and speculation in such regard. I find your attempt to 'steer' the discussion in such 'cause and effect' totally creative-possibility adiminishing - such PREsumption itself elimiates the notion of 'free will' before any discussion can get out of the box. I am NOT getting onto the same 'pidgeon-hole' with you (as though it was the only 'reality' in Lifes' oean. Your PREsumptions AXIOMatcally eliminate any possibility of there being 'free' will.

I 'freely' 😂 give you a 'raspberry' 😛 in said regard.

44 minutes ago, tariki said:

To be honest I don't find your own "modus operandi" in the slightest bit meaningful, in fact see it (as you dismiss mine) as a complete waste of valuable energy. The Buddha covered such in his fundamental discourses, found in the Theravada Canon of Scripture. His conclusion being that all metaphysical "views", however arrived at, have nothing to contribute to the "end of suffering" (dukkha).  I have found such substantiated. 

But obviously this is a Christian forum, not Buddhist, so you are free to continue as you wish, to speculate and argue your points. Interminably. As said, I will not participate further.

Your 'judgment' of the meaningfulness/meaninglessness of my presentation is registered. Please note that my 'judgment' of your 'judgment' 😊 is that it reveals a closed-minded opinionatedness on your part.

I welcome said non-participation.

I am hoping to discuss these matters with people who can and do relate to my understanding of them, should there be any such here.

Well assuming (just hoping, really) that Romansh's comments don't represent a dominant/dominating stream of thought-and-feeling here, let me share the rest of the chapter that I began sharing in an earlier post, begiinning with the last paragraph in that post. which I presented as a curiosity-tease. If you cpntemplate what I say, you may 'see' that it also explains the presence and activity of what many think of 'evil' in our world:
 

"2:17  Why then, given such capacity, whether or not dynamics which selectively reinforce cooperative­ness and debilitate oppositionalism are at work, haven’t we been able to establish and sustain a state of functional community and positively creative adaptation? Instead, there is a profusion of conflict, distress is endemic, many don’t fare at all well. A more extensive analysis is necessary to elucidate this apparent contradiction.

2:18  There were times, such as the period during which we were hunter-gatherers and simple herders, when rela­tively limited perspective and short-term design, governed by the instinctual imperative to “be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis; 1:28) were indeed sufficient. In a world where dominance has not yet been established by any particular species, creative purpose is well-served by general efforts towards material productivity and biological reproduction. Kept from over­expanding by inability to prevail, populations remain in dynamic balance. When no particular group monopolized the stage, the stream of Life moved forward smoothly, without interruption.

2:19  But drastic consequences ensued once we attained and consolidated a position of unrivaled ascendancy (as one species or another was bound to eventually, given Life’s inherent ‘upward’ aspiration). With others no longer able to functionally constrain our growth, we have since then repeatedly expanded past the point that our ecosystem could regeneratively support and sustain. Severe crises have contin­ued to recur as the needs and desires of increasing numbers of us have cyclically exhausted the productive capacity of our environment, precipitating ecological disasters and massive populational deletions. Again and again, as now once more, we have found ourselves caught in a tightening net, faced with life-or-death prospects in increasingly com­petitive relationship with one another, as available resources become insufficient.

2:20  Events and trends of this and recent centuries highlight the escalating process. As individuals and groups continue to multiply and aspire to ever greater power and attainment in the context of a finite setting, in addition to increasing levels of stress, more and more suffer unwelcome privation. As returns gradually diminish, more and more have to work harder and harder to make a decent living; and fewer and fewer of those who are functionally dependent are adequately provided for and protected (witness the plight of so many of our children!).

2:21  As exploitation becomes exhaustive, those at a competitive disadvantage sink into poverty and become increasingly malnourished and ill-effected by environmental pollution. Not just materially; analogous trends are evi­denced in realms of Mind and Spirit. The texture of emotion and awareness becomes more and more night­marish. Even­tually, all hell breaks loose—anomie, anxiety and frustration spread and build into an epidemic of loneliness, paranoia and rage, and finally explode, with more and more people trying to escape hopelessness, in an avalanche of insane desperation.

2:22  Synchronously, relationships break down. As people feel deprived or threat­ened, immediate self-interest eclipses empathy based on mutual identification. Respect and good­will fall by the wayside. Personal desires are opportunistically asserted as valid, even as their equivalents in others are adamantly rejected as unwarranted impositions.

2:23  Sociopathology proliferates. Love becomes a mere charade; more and more often, fanciful attraction just leads to a bed of thorns. Marriages more frequently fall apart; proportionally fewer true unions are formed. Homes become battlegrounds; family life degenerates into a horror-show, full of ill will and discontent. Parents become increasingly negli­gent and abusive; children more rebellious and insolent. Cultural transmission is disrupted as the young and the old become mutually unsympathetic, each begrudging the special considerations and opportunities the other, by virtue of organic status, should be afforded. Even institutional settings specifically designed to promote growth and well-being become wastelands, as more and more functionaries don’t truly care for their charges and their charges become increasingly dysfunctional and vindictive in response.

2:24  It should come as no surprise. As individuals and groups press up against and are reciprocally pressured by others, not of their liking or choosing, the desire to have and the fear of being had catalytically combine to spark distrust and inflame antagonism. In such context, some behave like lone wolves; others like dogs gone mad. Most, however, join in unholy alliance, not united by love of Life but by shared greed and common aversions.

2:25  Not recognizing the desire for self-enhancement itself to be the underlying cause of the dissatisfaction and distress they experience and encounter, individuals and groups project blame outward, rationalizing that they and theirs are (or would be, if they didn’t vigilantly ensure other­wise) insufficiently given to and excessively taken advantage of. Denying their own duplicity and viewing others as par­ticularly villainous, as circumstances deteriorate, they justify uncharitability and deceit as legitimate means of getting ahead, and treachery and the wreaking of vengeance as fair ways of getting even.

2:26  Mutually beneficial arrangements for the sharing and exchange of labor and its fruits consequently break down. Alliance against alliance, ideology against ideology, ethnic group against ethnic group, class against class, and newcomers against the establishment, as well as in-groups against the outcast within them, rivalries become so cut­throat that enmity develops between people, wherever categorically different. Whether hypocritically hidden or openly done, incidences of criminal dereliction and abuse become more insidious, more violational, more widespread, and more frequent.

2:27  Recurrently, at the tail end of a period of relative abundance during which all sorts of developments tend to flourish and proliferate, a dominant but unlearned species such as ours experiences an evolutionary crisis characterized by extremes of the forementioned abominations. Not as simply as the collapse of a weakened structure or the bursting of an overly distended balloon, more like earthquake activity and volcanic explosions, the growth of the complex of our pressures past the limits of multifaceted ecosystemic con­tainment occasions destructive disequilibrium in a series of episodes, with ones less catastrophic bracketing holocausts of major proportions.

2:28  And, unfortunately, as our capabilities naturally expand and increase, to the degree they continue to be one-sidedly deployed, they serve to magnify the scale and extent of the atrocities that are unleashed."

18 minutes ago, romansh said:

as yet you have not really answered any of my questions.

Hello Imperious One - please register and conduct yourself according to the FACT that I am not here to answer any of your (or anyone else's) potentially irrelevant to my purpose questions, but rather to present and share arguments which make sense of my Life-serving (IMO) world-view.

17 minutes ago, romansh said:

If someone said this about my writing and thoughts ... I would consider the possibility and check where that opinion might have come from. 

Backatcha, fellow.

7 hours ago, tariki said:

I find virtual "stream of consciousness" waffling and rambling (undisturbed by the needing to respond to others) totally therapeutic. Life giving in fact.

I'm all for anything that's therapeutic. But I hope you register the fact that others (in this case myself) may find attempting to engaging in meaningfully coherent discussion with others who share "virtual 'stream  of consciousness' waffling and rambling" just 'jerks' them around and wastes valuable energy and time. So I probably won't be talking with you if your present pattern continues to be your modus operandi.

Wishing you a full recovery, as before.

15 hours ago, romansh said:

Nice copy and paste ... what about free will? Does your subscription to God's role explain free will?  Does it lend itself to a libertarian or compatibilist view of free will?

I answered you in the 'free will' thread. I seriously wonder about your rationale for bringing this up in this thread.
 

And re your saying: "Your writing seems like a platitude salad. I would love to have a discussion, but I am not going to try and decipher what for me comes across as a word salad."

I ask you, honestly now, would you consider someone who said something like this to you a decent prospect for having a meaningful discussion with? Good luck in your relationships with others.

I am shocked to find this kind of response in a supposedly, would-be at least Christian (i.e. 'love your neighbor as yourself') forum.  Another 'sign' of the sickness epidemic in the world, I suppose. Still surprises me, however.

Assuming "By their fruits shall ye know them" is a truism, this doesn't bode well for this Progressive Christianity' endeavor.

On 12/18/2022 at 11:23 AM, romansh said:

Atoms and molecules have affinities for certain configurations. Atoms generally 'like' full orbitals and some molecular structures are 'preferred. Similarly, Biology has certain stable ecologies which depend on the environment. Speaking from a stability point of view non-life is where it is at? 

Life is, if we like, an aberration in death. My affinity is to enjoy it whilst it lasts.

What has significance or God for that matter, to do with anything?

Here is the THEORY I subscribe to about what "God's" role in the Process of Creation that we are all iivng aspects of (excerpted from Chapter 2 of my book, Godspeak2000)":

"2:8  ... Everybody in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of ‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by cus­tom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by mis­usage, I generally refer to it alter­natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, it is the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone. (Though the full import of this cause of all causes may yet escape you, the following review and analysis of our catalog of scientific knowledge should at least make its fundamental character obvious.)

2:9  Even the simplest cases of what’s called gravitational attraction provide perfect illustration, if viewed without prejudice. Bodies of matter-energy must move themselves, for nothing really pushes or pulls them one towards the other.a And they must perceive both presence and relative location, else they could not attempt to move as they do, with an acceleration pro­portionate to the mass and proximity and in the direction of coexisting others.

2:10  Electromagnetic and nuclear interactions, where repulsion occurs as well, are additionally revealing. Ongoing scientific investigation has led us to understand the fact that sense perceptions are basically ‘gross’ acknowledgments, and that everything is fundamentally a wave-form and nothing is actually solid at core.a So, besides there being no substantive means to constitutionally link those bodies which form conglomerates, there is no real ‘boundary’ that so called objects bump into when they apparently bounce off one another. The only inference this permits, if one has enough courage and faith in Life not to invent extrinsic agency as a false postulate, is that the movements that bodies make and the stations they take result from the impulses and choices of discerning, autogenic ‘interiors’.

2:11  The direction and purpose of such inherent power and intentionality can be deduced from the cumulation and trend of results which have so far occurred. Pro­gressively, the creative essence of Being has conspired to form an array of what, because of our material orientation, we’ve called ‘sub-atomic particles’; these have interacted and engaged in such ways as to produce ‘electrons’, ‘protons’ and ‘neutrons’ which, in turn, have combined to create the various ‘atoms’ and ‘molecules’ we have become familiar with; and these, through more concerted effort, have coalesced into cellular and multi-cellular units, in stages, generating ever more complex aggregations of body,a mind and spirit—the whole hierarchy and procession we know as Life.

2:12  In ascending sequence, with prior developments integrated and built upon, ‘bodies’ have become more coordinated, ‘spirits’ more potent, ‘minds’ more perceptive, resident Intelligence more designful and adept. Even what some call ‘simple’ single-celled organisms are architectural masters capable of cognizing, culling and compiling environ­mental ingredients so as to reproduce themselves and further their particular line of development. Each succeeding level of integration further demonstrates the aim of the impetus inherent within all being—that is, to seek and establish cooperative affiliation with suitable others in order to enhance creativity and increase the degree of intelligent actualization.

2:13  Life’s evolutionary accomplishments in such pursuit are extremely varied in range and infinitely diverse; and, because of the involuted nature of their interconnectedness and interdependence, the ways in which its many forms and levels are related cannot be simply stated. Generally speak­ing, however, one might say that ‘lesser’ combina­tions of body, mind and spirit tend to be incorporated by, and serve to sustain, those more comprehensively developed.a With their more energized spirits, more mobile bodies and more dimensional minds, for example, animals prevail over vege­tation for the most part; and the more capable among them prevail over the rest.

2:14  Members of our species stand at the peak of a fantastic living pyramid, borne by the earth and sustained by energy continually streaming from the sun. Cresting a progression that has taken place over aeons and ages,a we have emerged ascendant, capable of much more than great physical dexterity and coordination. Our laughter and our tears demonstrate, in dimensions of Mind and Spirit, how far beyond its other earthly manifestations Intelligence has devel­oped in the process of becoming human.

2:15  We are in a preeminent position because our Intel­ligencea is more capable. Knowing the habits and tendencies of animals, we can hunt and herd them for everything from milk and manure to skins and meat. Knowing the proclivities of plants and trees, we can sow and reap them for food, shelter and variety of drink. And, knowing the patterns and affinities of atoms and molecules, we can manipulate and reorder them to fulfill practically every structural possibility we desire.

2:16  What’s more, because we can categorize and communicate aspects of experience using sounds and word-symbols strung together in sentences and paragraphs, knowledge gained by any member of our species is poten­tially available to everyone. We can thereby transcend limitations inherent in the ‘me’ of self and the ‘here and now’ of immediate perception. And because we can logically contemplate concepts of ‘before’ and ‘after’ and system­ati­cally correlate effects with causes, projecting any imaginable ‘if’ into the latent potentials of every possible ‘then’, we can also transcend the circumstantial limits of prior experience and conditioning. In sum, because we can broadly compre­hend the significance of past patterns, current trends and future portents, we are capable of knowingly choosing the path to optimal actualization.

2:17  Why then, given such capacity, whether or not dynamics which selectively reinforce cooperative­ness and debilitate oppositionalism are at work, haven’t we been able to establish and sustain a state of functional community and positively creative adaptation? Instead, there is a profusion of conflict, distress is endemic, many don’t fare at all well. A more extensive analysis is necessary to elucidate this apparent contradiction."

The rest of the book addresses the question raised in in the last paragraph above.

25 minutes ago, tariki said:

But, whatever, I still find that engaging in actual "discussion" to be debilitating.

Into my sixth week free of anti-depressant medication, such toing and froing I find disturbing, threatening my peace of mind. 

So fare thee well. Back to random waffling and rambling.

Thank you. 

Well, this is (?) a 'discussion' forum. so it it makes good sense for you not to be here in that case.

Wishing you the best on your 'recovery' journey. Tariki. Thank you for informing me of the reason for your absence. 💙

1 hour ago, romansh said:

If you think about it for one moment ... this is a completely incoherent concept.

To you, maybe.

16 hours ago, romansh said:

As yet you have not mentioned where will from and what it is free from. ...

Regarding creativity ... is it not from an ability to hide one's citations from oneself or others?

Hi Romansh -

In my book, Godspeak 2000 (free download link below), speaking of Life's 'intrinsic potency', I address the first line of your statement thusly:

"Many who are awed by the momentous effects of psycho­spiritual dynamics,a for example, postulate and believe in the potency of petitionable movers and governors,b above and beyond the range of ‘normal’ being. With conviction, they pity and proselytize people of different persuasion. Zealots even go so far as to condemn and treat as damned anyone who will not acknowledge and uphold what they brandish as supreme. Ostensibly rational others, on the other hand, codify the existence of invariant ‘natural’ laws and forces, and believe them and nothing else to be determining. They self-righteously regard as stupid, even treat as insane, anyone who doesn’t talk and act as if what they imagine to be paramount is controlling. The trouble is, though they make much of their differences, members of both such schools of thought erroneously agree. At most they dispute among themselves whether the rules or rulers they’ve mind-enthroned are biased in relation to particular values or personages and, if so, for what purpose(s) and to what degree. In the end, they are similarly hamstrung by the common assumption they make, for all who believe in the absolute dominance of other forces then think of Life as one or another sort of script being staged and act puppet-like within it accordingly.

The potentially liberating and amendatory truth (which, for the forementioned reasons, many don’t appreciate) is that everybody in existence is spiritually motivated by a mindfully discriminating intrinsic potency. This was termed ‘atman’ or ‘soul’ by sages of old, who recognized everyone and everything as an immediate expression of the universally present, intelligently creative essence which they understood to be the real meaning of‘Brahman’ and ‘God’. But, because such words have been misappropriated by cus­tom and their significance sometimes grossly distorted by misusage, I generally refer to it alter­natively, as Intelligence, Creativity, Life Itself or the Life-Force. However labeled, itis the source ‘element’ from which all Being springs, the core I-Am-That-I-Am, That Which Is at root within each and everyone."


Re: "Just out of curiosity what texts/philosophers have you read on the subject?"

My book is filled with citations pertaining to the subject of Creativity, d/b/a/ Life. But I am a pschospiritual philosopher by vocation myself, so my words need no citations to make sense.

Here is a link if you wish to download the a pdf of the full book, citations and all:

https://davidsundom.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/6/5/7765474/godspeak2000.pdf

10 hours ago, tariki said:

\Above, a photo of my daughter and grandson. 

We love you Daz.....and the Tractor Boys!

Great! The perspective I shared about the flowering of Love and Joy is a tad more 'inclusive', however.


And re you asking: "Why is it [said potential' fulfilled] in some and not others?

My comments about 'free will' imply that is because most people don't choose to rigorously exercise their 'will' with such desire and purpose in heart and mind.

Jesus' characterization of such folks is contained in thee parable about the Sower sowing seeds, I think:  "Some [seeds] fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched;  and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them."

Their souls (their mind-and-spirit 'constellations') hadn't yet developed enough to be make completely 'free' choices in said regards. maybe(?).

14 hours ago, tariki said:

as Rom has implied, I can't really understand much of what you are saying.

 

I spoke/wrote in English. Sorry, it seems to be incomprehensible to you.

My main point regarding our free will is: "We have the potential to learn from and choose to change the patterns of our thoughts, feelings and behaviors based on the ‘feedback’ of personal experience so as to become more knowing and adept at creatively executing Life’s Love and Joy maximization aimed Source-code."

Regarding such Source code, at an earlier point in the treatise, I said: "it has more recently struck me that developments in the field of modern computer systems may provide us with an even more illustrative model for the universally creative, feedback-loop based interfusion of The Essence of Creativity and the Life of every individual and amalgamated aspect of Its expression. To explore this proposition, imagine if you will that the main aim or goal of said Essence’s ‘program’– the primary motive (i.e. desire) ensconced in its ‘source code’ – is to maximally express and thereby experience Love and Joy, to Joyfully express and experience Love and Lovingly express and experience Joy to the greatest possible degree in every possible way, or something like that."

Maybe ? if you read the whole treatise you would be able to catch on, but I doubt you would  be inclined to ...

Well, there hasn't been a post here since November, 2023. Maybe this post, quoting what I wrote about 'free wlll' in my treatise :titled "What Did Jesus REALLY Mean?". will stimulate re-engagment with the topic:

Unlike those soul configurations which inhabit and pursue Life’s objectives using more constitutionally ‘hard-wired’ (and therefore less capable of elective information processing) bodies, we (we, in this case, referencing souls ensconsed in more advanced kinds of physiological platforms; and advanced, in this case, referencing greater ‘bandwidth’ accommodating information-reception, information-processing and information-transmission capabilities) can and so may cognitively appreciate and apprehend the functional significance(s) of and so operationally elect to relate to the constellational configurations of our own and others’ existential gestalts (or aspects thereof) in ways of our own choosing (hence the phenomenon known as ‘free will’).

We have the potential to learn from and choose to change the patterns of our thoughts, feelings and behaviors based on the ‘feedback’ of personal experience so as to become more knowing and adept at creatively executing Life’s Love and Joy maximization aimed Source-code, which (as postulated and argued in Chapter 1) is the imperative that ubiquitously operates within all Being. Hence our development of keener discernment and the capacity to be more functionally discriminating (I don’t mean by way of stereotyping, of course!) and, consequently, our increasingly selective execution of possible choices such as acceptance, trust, devotion, wariness, rejection, banishment,* etc. in relation to others and increasing degrees of wisdom in terms of the ways in which we choose to deploy our ‘will’ in such regards.

* Note: This is just a categorical list of conceptually black-and-white thought-feeling-and-behavior options which I have compiled to illustrate the point I am making. The  ways which Mind and Spirit may choose to flow, and consequently ‘act’, in are spectrumatically infinite, both in terms of variety and admixtural combination.

The learning and consequent wisdom-development I speak of is in the ‘direction’ of more fully appreciating the functional commonalities and connections between one’s ‘self ’ and other ‘selves’ and so of relationally engaging with others as well as Life-at-Large in ways which, more and more so in the long term, synergically augment and improve the quality of both our own and others’ experiences and expressions of Love and Joy, thereby increasing the likelihood that not just our own but others’ wishes and desires to experience and express Love and Joy will be optimally fulfilled as well in  the process (except of course if, when and as said others are so other exploitive and self-aggrandizing that they sully and diminish the potential for conjoint experience and expression of Love and Joy, in which case non cooperation and counteraction may be our choice, for the same aiming-to-maximize the experience and expression of Love and Joy in relation to and with others in Life’s Flow ‘reason’).

All of which explains our gradual progression (albeit, as a result of their still self ishly biased calculus in the foregoing regards, not in every soul’s case, and, even in the cases of those who do progress in this regard, often in periodically regressive, learning the ‘hard’ way, fashion!) from completely self ish, to familial, to clannish, to tribal, to ethnographic, to anthropocentric, and, finally, to cosmically all-inclusive, completely self-transcendent psychospiritual ‘i’dentifications and corollary allegiances, meaning that, with experience and education, over the course of time, folks increasingly think, feel and believe and so more and more conscientiously act knowing that, though each and every individual and group is unique and so differs from  others in significant ways, one’s ‘self ’ and all other ‘selves’ are really integral aspects of Life’s Flow and so, despite apparent differences, we are all relationally connected aspects of the same (pertaining to the Universe we are in, at least) Cosmic Being-Doing, which is Life Itself in action!*

* Hence the historically resonant, exhortative declarations by ‘fully awakened’ souls, such as: “Put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him  that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [i.e. an ‘owned’ slave or ‘indentured’ servant] nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.” (Colossians 3:10-11); “As the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we  be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (I Corinthians 12:12 13); and “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ.” (Galatians 3:28).

Hello Everyone - I have been away for a while - composing a treatise (turned out to be 88 pages) by the above name. I am not sure if this is the best place in the PC Forum to present it (wouldn't mind at all if admins decided to move it). Click here to download a pdf copy (no cost, no registration requires). I look forward to any and all discussion of my (non-traditional) view and understanding of Jesus and his teachings. Here's an excepted 'teaser' paragraph from chapter two to entice folks to download and explore what I present therein:

"What else could the truth alluded to by Jesus’ various statements: “Whoso­ever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it”, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” and “He that believeth on me hath everlasting life” possibly mean then? This is something you may well ask, especially if you’ve been indoctrinated by literal interpretations of such sayings. Comprehension in this regard requires that one appreciate what Jesus himself understood the earthly dynamic of our Life-Source and, conse­quently, what he grokked the nature of his and everyone else’s personal Life  (which are expressions of and so only exist as a function of said Life Source’s Flow) to transcendentally be. What follows should come as ‘good news’ to anyone who has been disillusioned by growing awareness of the many ways in which the ‘app’☺ of rational logic is making it clear that literal interpretations of what’s said in The Bible are actually nonsensical. This doesn’t mean that  real truth isn’t figuratively referenced by Jesus’ statements, however. ..."

1 hour ago, thormas said:

Not really clearer (poh-bahs?) and I would remind you of the etiquette

Ooops, I meant to write POOH-BAHs. Here's link which will (hopefully) render the meaning of the reference "clearer":  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Poobah

And I would remind you of my comments regarding the value of placing 'etiquette' at the center of the 'altar' of one's 'sacred' value-scheme, as well as of the fact Jesus' verbal engagements (which I've present many examples of) weren't always nice-nice advocating but often quite rough-n-tumble, the latter as a 'way' of communicating true-to-spirit (as opposed to conventional-social-moray) truths.

I am neither violating violating not derailing my decision and intention to 'exit' from your presence, thormas. I am simply 'taking' the 'baiting' comments which you  address meward and using them to further my truth-sharing mission and purpose in the course of doing so.

Lob some more pitches my way if that suits your purposes, man - I enjoy engaging in repartee as a medium of revelation - and I'm in no hurry to go anywhere (else) in particular ...

1 hour ago, thormas said:

I disagree: I don't think the rules of etiquette for the site violate the teachings or the real meaning of the message of Jesus.

And this house "is worthy."

I didn't say they 'violated' anything. Talk about 'capacity' to comprehend! I said that Jesus' teachings and 'actions' (verbal and otherwise) indicated that he and his teachings were at variance with the notion and value of 'etiquette' so centrally placed on the 'altar' here - and thus, of course, implied that what's going on here is not in keeping with what I consider 'Christianity' (Jesus' kind at lest) to really be.

IMO, everyone is 'worthy' of being spoken to and what anyone say is 'worthy' of being considered. You think I haven't listened to/hears and considered what Paul, you, Joseph et al. have said? And given you the truth (as I see it)  in response because I considered (past tense, now) you 'worthy' of being 'given' the truth as I see it to do or not do with whatever you will?

Regarding my putting that in the past tense, please know that what a person deems 'worth' relating to and engaging with is always a relative assessment, and that anyone/everyone with any sense of what practicality really entails, instead of aiming to just live in a nice-nice-in-relation-to-everyone feel-good 'fantasy', will choose to make 'judgment calls' as to what may or may not be 'worth' expending his or her (limited amount of) personal energy attending to, nurturing, buddying up with, etc.

Thank you for engaging and thereby giving me the opportunity to (hopefully) more clearly explain what has gone into my decision to depart from this (IMO, real-meaning-of-Jesus'-teachings-ignoring, unrealistically fantasy-based) we are all 'worthy' POH-BAHs arena.

This is not to say that I endorse any other 'Christian-label-using "church's" or "social movement's" value system, mind you. Just that I think that the one that's been established here will, if it just continues in its present fashion, prove to have been (past tense!) creatively dysfunctional (based on my understanding of Jesus' teachings, of course).

10 minutes ago, Davidsun said:

No quibble with what you have concluded and said for the reasons that you have so concluded, JosephM. I hope you 'got' the fact that I have concluded that placing the 'etiquette' you speak of on the 'altar' of whole-iness is in effect derailing the real meaning of Jesus's message and teachings to the point of being 'sacrilegious' - analogous to the way Jesus thought of and so reacted to what the money-changers were doing and the scribes and pharisees were 'administratively' endorsing in the temple.

Now, I am not interested in making a 'scene' so as to 'take stage' (so to speak) as Jesus did. I just want to clearly my 'criticism(s)' as stated to be 'heard' (to whatever extent that may be 'in the cards' for, i.e. possible by, anyone here) whether their import is appreciated or not, before moving on.

Here is another of Jesus' teachings which I believe (as Paul has stated all 'conclusions', even Jesus', are basically just personally arrived at 'opinions') is functionally pertinent: "And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shale off the dust of your feet." (Matthew 10) IMO, it would be remiss for me to simply 'make peace' with those who (in my opinion) desecrate the 'truth' about Life (even if they do so 'in the name' of - that is thinking and believing that they thereby 'aligned' with - real goodness/Christ/Life).

If I thought  there was a reasonable chance of my words making a positive difference here, I would stick around and keep sharing.

I think indiscriminate (for the sake 'feeling good') 'inclusiveness' will be the 'death' of the 'Progressive Christianity', that is, if those in it can't/don't get around to truly appreciating the spiritual practicality of Jesus' teachings in all their complexity.

Thank you for the 'open' door which I exit hereby. Anyone now or in the future reading this who wishes to stay in touch with me or just 'follow' what I am up to may do so via my website (URL is in my profile).

13 hours ago, JosephM said:

Davidsun,

It seems to me that not everyone who relates to the label of Progressive Christian is at the same progression in their journey. Hence there is bound to be some confusion on points. Perhaps they will never be stated to satisfy all. The 8 points are very general in nature and subject to change as they did in 2011 . Each time they change people seem to be alienated but that is the nature of change and progressiveness. In my view,  individuals seem to either grow or prefer to  remain fixed and comfortable in their current place in their journey.

Anyway, David,  it is good to review our etiquette here    because  we allow people to self label themselves without being told different or that they are not a Christian or PC. (That is taboo here) That may be your understanding or misunderstanding but it is best left unsaid. Many here have come from painful backgrounds where they have been told all manner of accusations from sometimes well meaning people who themselves thought they had a corner on truth only to find later that it is a growth process. I think people grow in their journey not when they are told they are wrong or mistaken but rather when they hear something that has real meaning or truth in it and that they are able to  relate to and are ready to receive.

PaulS has in my view, come a long way and has had great progression in his journey since i have know him.  He seems to me to have committed himself to study, learning and to be comfortable with both uncertainty and change which can be a difficult path at times. I admire his purposefulness and dedication to growth and trust him explicitly in his understanding and ability to run this forum as Moderator and Assistant Administrator according to our purpose or charter.

JosephM (as Admin)

No quibble with what you have concluded and said for the reasons that you have so concluded, JosephM. I hope you 'got' the fact that I have concluded that placing the 'etiquette' you speak of on the 'altar' of whole-iness is in effect derailing the real meaning of Jesus's message and teachings to the point of being 'sacrilegious' - analogous to the way Jesus thought of and so reacted to what the money-changers were doing and the scribes and pharisees were 'administratively' endorsing in the temple.

Now, I am not interested in making a 'scene' so as to 'take stage' (so to speak) as Jesus did. I just want to clearly my 'criticism(s)' as stated to be 'heard' (to whatever extent that may be 'in the cards' for, i.e. possible by, anyone here) whether their import is appreciated or not, before moving on.

Here is another of Jesus' teachings which I believe (as Paul has stated all 'conclusions', even Jesus', are basically just personally arrived at 'opinions') is functionally pertinent: "And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it:  but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.   14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shale off the dust of your feet." (Matthew 10) IMO, it would be remiss for me to simply 'make peace' with those who (in my opinion) desecrate the 'truth' about Life (even is the do so 'in the name' of goodness/Christ/Life).

If I thought  there was a reasonable chance of my words making a positive difference here, I would stick around and keep sharing.

Anyone now or in the future reading this who wishes to stay in touch with me or just 'follow' what I am up to may do so via my website.