12 minutes ago, thormas said:

If we're talking about the conversation Rom and I are having:

How is God measured, what possible measurement of God are there and what independent (of God?) observer has observed God in himself?

Yes.  Same conversation.  Plus it must have the same result every time.  Repeatability.

3 criteria must be satisfied for something to be validly explored using the scientific method:

1) It must be measurable

2) It must be repeatable

3) It must be observed by an independent observer.

Attempting a scientific observation of god is a fool’s errand.

4 minutes ago, JosephM said:

I read somewhere they also last alot longer than shingle roofs here

50 year guarantee.  They also bring older homes up to current code for wind.

2 hours ago, JosephM said:

Since caring for our environment is an important aspect of concern to many, i thought it would be interesting knowing what members are doing that contribute to its care.

I'll start

I drive an electric car.    I dispose of my trash properly (no littering)

I have 3 solar tubes installed for light in the house. I use led lights through-out the house and solar  night lights installed outside.

I separate from the trash and give to recycling my glass bottles, plastic, paper and aluminum products.

 

Anyone else do anything they would share or have any ideas that would contribute to a cleaner safer environment?

I have a white steel roof.  Drops my Florida power usage by 1/3.

2 hours ago, PaulS said:

But Joseph, what about the fanatical Muslim who wants to slit the throats of infidels because of his innate knowing that that’s what God is about and wants?  Admittedly, I don’t personally know any throat cutting Muslims (i.e. fanatics) but I imagine they and those that are prepared to blow themselves up, might say the same thing as you.  Would you doubt their experience of God?

There are no fanatical muslims slitting throats.  There were mercenaries hired by Five Eyes orgs to pose as muslims, and several years ago some were making fake beheading videos.

Islam does condemn those people and believes they will be consigned to hell.  Maybe that was the cause of their problem all along.

46 minutes ago, JosephM said:

You can't by reason or by axioms know God. You can believe in God by reason but knowing is innate and doesn't require thought. In fact it is realized without thought. If i were to convince you by reason and axioms that there is a God you still would not "know".

Amen.  Reason and theology is best used to work one’s brain around logical barriers to faith and to identify the important spiritual issues and questions.  

In general conversation I usually tell people I try to follow Jesus.  I get into better discussions that way.

33 minutes ago, romansh said:

Moving the goal posts thormas are we?

Sherwin said "before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed" and you want to discuss "experience".

OK lets meaningfully discuss the experience of "red" without defining it first.

You don’t need Sherwin Wine for that.  You need Sherwin Williams.

26 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

Thanks, it's actually good to know that I'm not the only one that finds this to be a challenge. I find that even putting "experiences" into words to be a challenge, and that it's difficult to articulate what I'm really feeling or trying to say.

I was logged on when your comment first came in, but this forum's software only allows me so many comments in a 24 hr. period, so I went and looked up Thomas á Kempis. It's too soon for me to have many thoughts on his writings and ideas. One thing kinda did strike me however, the publication that he is mostly known for is called, 'The Imitation of Christ'. This may all be very sweet and good and all that, but it kind of made me step back a bit. I've never thought I could "imitate Christ" any more than I could "imitate" Pavarotti  singing on stage. It's not that I don't appreciate Christ or Pavarotti , it's just that ... let's be realistic here.

All I can do is be myself, (or my true self) in Christ. I don't actually get to be like Christ, and I don't know if I'd want to be considering all the trouble he seems to have had.

I did however find a few quotes of his that I do kind of like: 

"If thou wilt receive profit, read with humility, simplicity, and faith, and seek not at any time the fame of being learned."

"At the Day of Judgement we shall not be asked what we have read, but what we have done." — The Imitation of Christ, Book I, ch. 3

 

I haven't had time to really look up and research Meister Eckhart either. But thanks for the names and the references. They may well prove valuable  in the future. Thanks

 

Don’t get hung up on the title.  Both are old books.   Both are available for free on Apple and other public domain sites.  

Read like Proverbs or Psalms.  Just take a single thought and let it roll around in your head all day.

Progressive christianity is a loose description covering a broad swath of Christian organizations.

ProgressiveChristianity.org is one small mission.  

8 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I agree with you here too.

It also helps me get through all the ordinary things that I have to do in the course of a day, as well as some real and great spiritual moments. It's like being inside Christ and his Love as well as him in me sometimes. There's a real inner stillness that sometimes comes with this.

Can't say I know how to explain it real good

Few can, which is why it is rarely discussed here.  All we can do is share experiences.  
 

The only authors I feel have done an effective job of expressing this central aspect of Christianity are Thomas á Kempis and Meister Eckhart.  

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

I checked out Larry Hurtado on the internet. Do you know which book or publication the ideas that you mentioned are published in?

You are saying that these people "knew" Jesus, the next question becomes how well and what constitutes "knowing" him. Also, how much time did Jesus actually spend in Jerusalem and how much time was he traveling and spending else where? There are people who are recorded as traveling with Jesus besides the 12 apostles, how well did they each get to know him and actually witness and hear what he said.

It seems to me that there were far and away more people who just saw him once, and or heard him once, "got the faith", and just took things from there without the help of Jesus or one of the apostles. There's all the people at the Sermon on the Mount, there's all the folks along the shores of the sea of Galilee, there's the people who saw and heard him just once when he was teaching in the Temple and synagogues. There are people who just saw him either from near or afar in the streets and in the country. This is just during his ministry. After his "passing" there are all the people who just "got the faith" and took things on inspiration and with a kind of revelation that the faith opens people up to.

You seem to get a lot of inspiration from a number of the books that you read. I get this too, from reading or even from a musical rift, or a piece of art or a landscape. What I'm talking about is something like that, except without the book or music or art or scenery. It's a tuning in to the Spirit of Christ directly, through one's own spirit or intuitions or guts or inner or mental understanding. One doesn't need to be reading or using something else to do it, & it can actually happen all or most of the time if one is willing to work on it, and have/use God's help.

I don't know how else to put this. Perhaps this is a rather poor or imbalanced attempt on my part, but it's the best I can do and the best that I can explain things right now.

Thanks for reading Again.

Amen.  Just being still and with God is better than any intellectualization.

11 minutes ago, PaulS said:

If I was a Muslim, who strongly believed that God wanted me to slit the throats of infidels or fly planes into heavily populated buildings, would you consider attacking or vandalising my spiritual path?   But I digress.

What I mean to say is that it's a bit if a straw man argument to take offence because one states concerns that they see about particular religious beliefs.  The nature of discussion, and quite obviously a thread that I started here that clearly doesn't align with some views of Christianity, is always going to be a difficult topic for some.  

If you could just restrain your bigotry against Christians instead of adding in anti-muslim bigotry that would be great.

25 minutes ago, romansh said:

I am led to believe PC is accepting of ALL, even scientific and non spiritual people? Or is there something different about this particular forum?

Even if I think it is harmful to the community?

I am sure you find some of my positions nonsense. These are the ones I would love to discuss.

Your poison Erlenmeyer chalice vís a vís Jesus changing water into wine at Cana might prove interesting.

2 hours ago, TheTechnician said:

I am glad of any dialog you are willing to share. Maybe I am using the word "judge" as a metaphor for, I guess, live and let live.

If someone is doing wrong, it is not judging them by you doing the right thing and affecting some kind of change in their behavior. Even if it is reporting them to the authorities, you are making a positive change in their lives. Humans are bad at asking for help and resisting temptation, in whatever form it is. I know this from experience. I have battled with addiction for a very long time. Having faith has made a big difference in fighting that battle.

It is a real bummer that folks like those in your tale hide behind faith while acting counter to it. It makes it hard to want to explore fellowship without being hesitant or untrusting. I am completely new to this as I previously stated. No previous religious experience at all, so you can imagine how hard it is when all you hear are the horror stories surrounding faith, religion, the Bible, Christianity, Catholicism, Muslim and so on. Finding God is no picnic in this day and age. 

 

I attended my first voluntary Church service last Sunday. I felt welcomed and loved and it was a great experience. It was a Unitarian Church and again, I sang and prayed but I felt the message was lacking something for me. Maybe it's because I am reading the KJV from cover to cover right now and I need a bit more theology in the sermon?

Thanks for the chat. Respond if you like

Find a book on how to read the bible.  Cover to cover is not a good strategy.  You will read over a lot of important connections that way, and most die in the dusty desert of Deuteronomy.

33 minutes ago, romansh said:

I positively affirm that there are certain aspects of religion I find as nonsense. ie do not make sense at least to me. 

There is a huge difference between asking questions of a person's spiritual path including its validity and being cynical and a vandal.

Asking questions would be politely asking for clarification or explication with the objective of gaining a deeper understanding.

Calling someone’s religious beliefs nonsense is dismissive.  So is being argumentative.

Rom, this is a spiritual forum not a scientific one.  We are not on a fact finding mission.  We are trying to maintain a sense of wonder, inquisitiveness, and attune our perceptions to revelation and enlightenment.

8 minutes ago, TheTechnician said:

I have started looking for a fellowship to land at. I have just started my search but I noticed that much of the congregation at the service I attended last week was 65+. Maybe it is that importance of community and fellowship was lost after the baby boomers. Society is in decline, everything is moment by moment and people would rather worship celebrities and athletes than go to Church and worship God. Oh and religion is vilified in popular media, movies and video games. Hopefully we can find our way back. If things don't change, Hardline Christians don't start coming around to acceptance and drop the hate act then they doom it for all of us. 

Church shopping is super difficult.  My advice is to disregard the worship and theology and try out social and mission functions first.  You will learn more about an individual church and its members that way.

9 minutes ago, thormas said:

It is not just a matter of comfort and familiarity for some of us: it is the chosen means by which to interpret, understand and discover the meaning of existence, of everything.

And it is not the 2000+ year old stories. Many of us don't take many of those stories literally (being on at least 3 PC sites I don't see very many at all who do). How many PCs accept as fact or history genesis, exodus, passover, manna from heaven, Sinai,  the virgin birth, angels, Satan, temptations in the desert, old ladies getting pregnant, theistic incarnation, miracles, especially natural miracles, pentecost, resurrection as portrayed, atonement death. pentecost, and on and on?  What many do accept (to name just a few) are the insight therein: that there is God, humans are in relation to God and life has purpose/meaning and there is a way to be in creation.

There might be some who don't doubt certain thing or are certain in some of their beliefs (which is their right and which PC in general respects) but who does not raise or does not discuss "other stuff" because of that? Something might not be someone's expertise but there have been other discussions .........and disagreements. However, just like we don't expect the atheist to buy something because a PC says it, so too simply because someone with another interest posits something or presents an argument - doesn't mean that PCs have to buy it.

What some here fail to appreciate is that Christians live in the world of the 21st also. They accept that some beliefs or positions in Christianity (not necessarily the ones mentioned above) 'speak' to them but they also accept (after all they are progressives), for example, evolution, reject creationism, are amazed and read/ study about the universe along with history, literature, the arts, science, etc. And are interested, at times, in such discussions. But as has been said, the site is called PC which gives a hint s to what one might fine here to discuss.

Such Christians can speculate that the universe is eternal (or maybe not), if it came to be how is that possible, is it matter or mind that is the reality, etc.  Other, non-Christians, are free to say, I'm an atheist or an agnostic or both and I don't think life has any meaning or you make your own meaning or right and wrong are generational truths, etc.  that is what resonates with them for whatever reason. It is not what resonates for me in terms of answering the question about what 'it' means and how one is to live. 

I just did a fast check and cynicism which to me has some overlap with atheism predated Christianity and the 'first atheist' also predated Christ. We can also date atheism to the 16th C so does that mean that any who hold or share any such views 'by and large, the 2000 + year old beliefs, later in vogue in the 16th and once again in the present-day, are what they are use to and familiar with and don't doubt or are certain of in their minds?' 

I'm interested in other topics too. However if another begins to go from 'fact' or scholarly/expert positions to belief, I suspect that 'key' beliefs or positions of the atheist or agnostic or the cynic that resonate with them  - will not resonate with PCs. They certainly have a right to present their beliefs - as do Christians.  

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly.  Everyone should post what they positively affirm, but not bully others by calling their affirmations ‘nonsense’, ‘your religion is evil’, etc.

I believe in heaven and in hell.  

I had a distinct vision when I was in my 30’s.  Heaven was a beautiful, pastoral scene with grass and huge trees.  Everyone wore simple, white clothes.  All were in small groups.  Conversing, walking, swimming, floating in mid air.  Calm and serene.

Hell was a desolate wasteland with no other company.  There was an old picnic table.  Small fires, hot coals (Like from a bbq grill; yards apart from each other) and sandspurs loosely scattered about.  Easily avoided, but I was bare footed.  The loneliness and ugliness were the overwhelming aspects. 

57 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

I understand what you are saying about things being cultural. At the same time I myself think there are things such as “universal truths” and that there is sometimes a real right and wrong to somethings. Yeah, this would mean that I am saying that there is something “wrong” with a society that thinks something like slavery or “religious beheadings” is ok.

Would I say it to them just like that? I don’t know, maybe it depends on the circumstances.

There is a universal, veridical righteousness.  It starts with belief in God and treating others as one would like to be treated.  

Pretty much universal.

3 hours ago, PaulS said:

I think we are all products or our environment and if you had grown up in a Christian household, convinced that you were born into sin, needed saving by the grace of Jesus, and believed that Jesus was the vehicle required, then you would probably be a different product.  

From my point of view personally, I feel that what Christianity has done to so many in teaching the prospect of hell and telling people they are a product of their disconnection from God, that they are evil sinners, and that they need saving, has caused much pain and heartache in the world.  And this goes on today, in a huge way!  

So whilst I agree with you that Hell is a nonsense concept, I know there are many people out there who are in pain, who wrestle with this concept and the impact it has on their lives.  I think it is probably the worst evil Christianity can be known for.  I would like to see that message done away because it simply isn't true, and in the last couple of hundred years scholars have been showing why even the early Christians didn't believe in it.  So why does Christianity at large persist with this untruth and why any of us tolerate it?  None of us would accept a child being sexually abused, but our 'Christian' society tolerates them being psychologically abused.

So for me personally, when contemporary authorities such as Erhmann publish something that helps heal that wound, I like people to know.

That would interest me - can you kick it off with a specific discussion point?  What are you thinking?  I find your knowledge and scientific approach quite intimidating sometimes though, I must admit, so can we keep it a little lower brow?

No.  People are welcome to hold cynical and bigoted opinions against Christianity but this is not the place for attacks on other people’s faith beliefs.

There is a huge difference between sharing one’s spiritual path and cynically vandalizing the spiritual path of others.

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

Well, maybe I do feel like I have less faith than she does, though I don't ness feel like my faith "is less" than hers,... though it might be.

I too had a similar experience when we went to my Aunt's house each year for Thanksgiving dinner. They were in the habit/tradition of saying 'thanks' for each meal before they/we ate. My father/parents were much more of the feeling that "we did this", we/my parents worked 40 hours and more  to get this/these meals and this "bounty" and we deserve like at least half the thanks and credit.

I don't know if I myself really believe that we humans actually "create" or "co-create" anything. I guess it depends on how the word is used. One could say that they "created" a work of art, and this is very common word usage in our or at least my society. People do say they "created" a baby,... but do they/we really? We certainly didn't create the creation process, but still that phrase is not totally uncommon.

I've at times felt like I couldn't so much as "create" a blade of grass. 

At the same time I could say that I'm creating a sentence right here and now as I write.

It's an interesting subject,... and I'm thinking that it depends on how the word is used and in which/what contexts. Maybe it's something we can get more into as time goes on, or even on another thread.

Thanks for this comment and I do see what you are saying here. I myself do tend to feel that our "karma" or the quality of our inner energy can effect our health and things like if we get cancer and/or how well we cope with it if we do. Does it effect our safety with regards to things like fires and accidents? I myself kind of think so, but how much or in which cases I'm not sure. I'm certainly not going to be careless with fire or a careless driver or encourage others to do so, for any reason whatsoever. 

One thing I will say about this woman is that she would say things like, "the letting out of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sin", and she and her family seemed really tough and even extreme in their practice of corporal punishment, especially on the smallest of her grandchildren, who though not living with her, she did take care of often. I myself might well disagree with corporal punishment entirely, and think there are far better ways of teaching and even disciplining children, though they do take more time, more thought and quite probably more energy and internal patience and balance. 

I myself have never understood the "letting out of blood" thing for the "forgiveness of sin", and quite possibly never will.

I consider myself "saved", (if one chooses to use that word) by Jesus's life and spirit and teachings and light, not by his death on the cross, (that's if that did actually happen. I myself don't know what I really think or feel on this particular subject, and probably am some long ways off from figuring out what I do or will ultimately think, that's if I am ever able to figure it out or "know for sure". I do however believe he is eternal and does and is living forever, and that he is far more than just a prophet. How and when this actually happened is another subject that we, or I, may never know or be totally privy to the answer to ). 

The idea of blood atonement is a misunderstanding of the metaphor of Christ’s blood as grace and life.  

I don’t know if I can explain atonement and forgiveness in a forum format but I could try.  Definitely a different topic.

15 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

I'm thinking that it would take me a while to get used to, or to even remember this kind of word usage. Do you yourself communicate in circles where this kind of word usage is common, and/or are there circles where this kind of word usage is common?

It's interesting, but I've got to say that it is totally and completely new to me.

Did the Prodigal Son kick the Father out of his life or his Father out of his life? . . . Though I do understand that there is a parallel here and that the story of the P Son was told as a parable. . . . I'm thinking that it was a parable for the "Kingdom of God", but I don't have chapter and verse memorized, so I could be wrong here.

I don't know if I myself think of God as the "ground of all being", even though this phrase is used by a number of eminent scholars and some authors that I myself really think highly of. I guess I could say that God is 'the ground of all energy' or 'the Source of all energy'. 

I've read, and I'm pretty sure more than once, that J. S. Spong translates the word 'Father' as it's used as pertaining to God in the bible, as 'Source' instead of 'Father'. He, I believe, says that it's a better and more accurate translation into our English and also that is how it is translated back into ancient Americ or Syriac Americ.

Where Jesus is quoted as saying in the New Testament,  "Call no one your 'father' for you have but one 'father' who is in heaven". . . I, myself find this to be a more clear translation also, saying, "Call no one your 'source' for you have but one 'source' who is in heaven" . . . . cause there are a lot of people who do call a lot of other people "father". . & even in the Christian tradition(s), even though it says not to...

Do you think that one person, or group of people can "kick God" out of another person's or group of people's lives?

All parables are related to the Kingdom of God.

9 minutes ago, thormas said:

I totally agree. Having that cup of tea and putting your feet up after a long day or even an easy day is necessary and restorative. Such care or love of self is not selfish.

Would life be worth living without tea? It is the nectar of the gods! Isn't it in one of the gospels that Jesus loved english breakfast tea?

Give a person a fish and they eat for a day.  

Teach a person to fish and they will spend half their paycheck on bait, tackle and boat payments.

*

Selflessness is not self-neglect or charity.  In Christianity it is replacing your thinking with the mind of Christ.  This is sanctification: working on Christian principles until they are internalized.