Burl
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Posts posted by Burl
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50 minutes ago, Pipiripi said:
Burl, God can never fail. He is the creator, and if He will make you knew, nothing can stop Him. Do you think that God is powerless?
The Bible is not a simple book that we read like the other books. The Bible was written by 66 authors in different period of time. My friend Jesus is coming soon, I don't know what is your doubts. Look what God has says in Isaiah 45:9-13.
I agree that the bible is not a simple book, so we must read all of it carefully and prayerfully especially when it seems difficult.
Your topic is Genesis and evolution, but you are avoiding my question. How do you explain the two different creation stories in Genesis?
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7 hours ago, Pipiripi said:
My brother I want you to go from how I believe in God. Don't trust nobody if they cannot show you BIBLICAL their teachings. Go in here. end-times-prophecy.org download it. If you are open God will used you mighty for people to come in His kingdom.
Piriripi, how do you reconcile the creation myths in Genesis 1 & 2?
In Genesis 1 man and woman are created together after the creation of plants and animals.
In Genesis 2, man is created first and then plants were created. God then created animals in an attempt to make a mate for Adam and failed, so Eve was made out of his rib.
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6 hours ago, PaulS said:
Burl,
1) I assume you're actually saying this and not me, as you seem to have made it appear? Correct?
2) It doesn't matter what we want to think, what we want to draw inspiration from, what we want to imagine being. If we start out with what we want we will find what we think is satisfactory evidence to support whatever notion we want. If we start with the reality (i.e. in this instance the actual existence of natural selection), and have the integrity to try and understand it, whether that is inspirational or not is irrelevant, but it might just give you the answers you are looking for. Just because you want something doesn't make it so unfortunately. Just because natural selection or evolution doesn't give you 'inspiration' is no reason to deny it. That seems rather childish to me - the answer doesn't suit you so you don't want to understand it.
How should you treat others - you really need a specific collection of books to show you that? Who says you need a conscious connection with God? I expect God as you think, does not exist, so to me any such 'connection' is meaningless. I have no issue with not making a connection with such a God. Obviously its something you feel you need - others don't. That doesn't make them wrong. How can you uplift others - of course you can draw inspiration from the bible, as many do from other sources as well including Buddhism, Islam, poetry, myths and legends, fables, etc. How can you face death without fear - this one I can answer easily - death is not to be feared. It happens to all of us. Billions of people before you have died. Let go of your ego and you won't be afraid. I'm not, because I won't know I'm dead!
It seems to me you are dwelling in the emotion of evolution, rather than the science. We are discussing here whether evolution is false or not - not what we would prefer to believe. Of course one is free to believe whatever they want - just that it's not necessarily factual.
200k years may indeed be a long time, but that is not a genuine reason for pursuing a better understanding of our evolution. I can't help but think many Christians fear that a proper, scientific understanding of evolution threatens their belief that humans need to be saved, which of course in turn threatens much that they hold dear about their religion. What indeed do they need to be saved 'from' and did they require this 'saving' when they were 'lesser species'? This to me seems to be what many Christians are afraid of rather than be prepared to confront the reality of evolution.
And to say that the bible is the cornerstone of civilization seems a perhaps inadvertently racist comment to me. Aboriginal Australians had a well-organised society for +50,000 years without the bible. As did Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and numerous other civilizations. Roman and then British power is what drove the limited understanding of the bible being the cornerstone of civilization because it considered all other beliefs and understanding to be primitive. They were the dominant power in certain areas and it is in those areas that the bible gained notoriety. In areas where those superpowers of their day did not gain a foothold, indeed the bible was nowhere near the cornerstone of such civilizations.
1) Yes it is my post. I tried to fix it but couldn’t.
2) Natural selection is not a correct solution. The negligible and exceptionally rare occurrences of ring species Joseph mentions are exceptionally thin evidences. They really sounds more like variation within a species resulting in accompanying damage to reproductive capacity.
Isn’t natural selection the precise reason the reason for the dominance of Western civilization? They had a bible but didn’t use it. As Linacre told Henry VIII, “Either these are not the gospels or we are not Christians.”
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2 hours ago, PaulS said:2 hours ago, PaulS said:I guess we will, if you choose not to stay on topic (evolution) and discuss the question at hand - do you think this need for salvation (from whatever it is you think homo sapiens need to be saved from ) existed when homo sapiens were 'lesser' animals, before they evolved to the species they are today? After all, this is a thread concerning evolution's falseness or otherwise and I think it is only reasonable to discuss those questions around it. Unless of course genuine interest is not your desire and only acceptance of your view perhaps is.
If you genuinely have an interest in deepening your understanding of my spiritual path, then feel free to start another thread on the matter and I will discuss further with you. I am more than happy to in a separate thread, but again, I have my suspicions that you have no genuine interest in an open and sharing discussion. Maybe you will surprise me.
I have only a passing interest in speculating if God created man by using evolution. I am not an anthropologist and 200k years is a terribly long time ago.
I am interested in the bible as one of our oldest literary creations and the cornerstone of our civilization. I want to read it as accurately and as deeply as possible and try to determine what information those people who lived only 5k years ago intended to be preserved and passed on to me. That is something I can confidently achieve.
How should I treat others? How can I maintain and increase a conscious connection with God? What pleasures seem attractive but turn into vices and lead into degeneracy and desperation? How can I uplift others? How can I live fulfilled & content, and how can I face death without fear?
Those are some of my interests, and natural selection does not provide a source of inspiration.
Or - if it might - how? What inspiration do you draw from that well?
The Hammer of Freedom -
34 minutes ago, PaulS said:
So now you know of the scientific evidence that demonstrates species evolving, I'll ask again - do you think this need for salvation (from whatever it is you think homo sapiens need to be saved from ) existed when homo sapiens were 'lesser' animals, before they evolved to the species they are today?
I do expect your interests to lean in the direction of spiritual evolution, as do mine here. All I am asking you is to substantiate some of your claims along the way. That is what
35 minutes ago, PaulS said:So now you know of the scientific evidence that demonstrates species evolving, I'll ask again - do you think this need for salvation (from whatever it is you think homo sapiens need to be saved from ) existed when homo sapiens were 'lesser' animals, before they evolved to the species they are today?
I do expect your interests to lean in the direction of spiritual evolution, as do mine here. All I am asking you is to substantiate some of your claims along the way. That is what debate and dialogue is about.
I don't believe in scientisim - I believe in substantiated facts. Beliefs and unsubstantiated claims are a different kettle of fish. I don't think you could grasp my spiritual path Burl because you are so ensconced in yours and anything said to the contrary is usually ridiculed by you. I sincerely doubt you would genuinely contemplate anything I said that seemed contrary to your beliefs, so to me it seems a waste of my time.
I guess we will just have to leave this here then.
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19 minutes ago, PaulS said:
I specifically remember giving a presentation to a class when I was 17 years of age on why evolution was false, based entirely on the evidence provided in Christianity Today! I remember their tagline which I used in my conclusion - "All of the evidence for evolution could fit into nothing larger than a coffin"! Oh how smug I was in the knowledge that my belief was right and supported by the likes of CT. Here was the confirmation bias I required to support my position. How times change when we objectivity challenge our beliefs and perhaps even consider the existence of new evidence that we didn't think actually existed before!
Evidently you did not go to the links.
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Link to American Scientific Affiliation, a group involved in reconciling science and Christianity.
There is an interesting testimony by their magazine editor in the current CT (free).
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Thank you, Joseph. I did not know that.
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An Australian who thinks barbecued sheep is a nasty tradition? Heresy! That’s good Tucker, Mate! 🤗
I know of zero scientific evidence for any species ever evolving from another species. Perhaps you know of an example where this has been scientifically proven?
It doesn’t offend me that you feel my need for religion is a nasty tradition, but this forum is organized around spiritual evolution, particularly as taught by Jesus, so you need to expect my interest here to lean in that direction. Jesus is pretty much my viewpoint for the entirety of existence.
I respect your belief in scientism. If you could deepen my understanding of your spiritual path that would be great.
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Paul, discarding our personal human tendencies and replacing them with the mind of Christ is the essence of salvation.
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I firmly believe that there is a spiritual, non-material component to the species Homo sapiens.
Yes, natural selection is a fact within species that can interbreed but that is absolutely not God.
Natural selection is purely selfish. It is the law of tooth and claw, not mercy and compassion. It is eugenics, genocide and the biological selection of a master race. All of these were justified by evolution, but they are very distant from God.
Morally, we need to examine our spiritual purpose and weigh the righteousness of our actions. The bible helps us do that. Natural selection does not.
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6 hours ago, Pipiripi said:
I have a question, why did all the others apes man has starving out, but the monkeys are still alive? Who is the first man and woman? I know that my first parents are Adam and Eve. What about yours? My book of life have a beginning and an end. What about yours book?
God bless you, Piriripi. I admire your faith and I am glad to know you. I post on a phone so I rarely write long missives or cover more than a single point so feel free to follow up.
The two different stories of Adam and Eve in Genesis are interesting to me for contemporary and non-historical reasons.
The biggest is why did God create Adam? God has already created angels and other elohim, but he then creates an entirely different being out of physical clay. This baffles me, and it is the single most important question posed by the creation of mankind.
Why are we here? What does God want from us?
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56 minutes ago, PaulS said:
Apologies then, as my assumption was that you believe Jesus is God. If you don't believe that, then I was mistaken.
But as for your claim that I have antipathy toward Jesus - you couldn't be more wrong. My aversion is toward those who claim they are speaking out for Jesus, as you did. I have met plenty of those and I think they are arrogant and misguided to think they actually understand Jesus and all that he was and stood for.
As it says and asks on the PC homepage - Progressive Christianity is an open, intelligent and collaborative approach to the Christian tradition and the life and teachings of Jesus that create pathways into an authentic and relevant religious experience. Do you find more grace in the search for meaning than in absolute certainty, in the questions rather than in the answers? Do you have religious interests and longings but cannot accept the beliefs and dogmas you associate with Christianity? Are you repelled by claims that Christianity is the “only way”? Do you find solace, meaning, or connection to the teachings and the path of Jesus of Nazareth?
So when I experience one such as you that claims they are speaking out for Jesus, my concern is that nobody has all the answers and to pretend they do, is fraud. I have seen people's certainty about Jesus cause much harm. It is my hope that you aren't also responsible for this harm to others, but fear that with your certainty about what you understand about Jesus, that you indeed may be. I hope I am wrong.
You quote the PC.org homepage as the leaven of the Pharisees. I don’t believe that was the intention of the authors.
No one has the answers, but some of us can indeed use the bible and the teachings and life of Jesus to point towards the truth as it is being revealed to us.
What we all share are intelligent and heartfelt questions, care and concern for others, and the use of the role model and teachings of Jesus as a means of exploration.
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John Belushi kissing Pope John Paul’s ring on the set of The Blues Brothers.
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1 hour ago, JosephM said:
As Burl points out in his above post, a pure literal interpretation such as a day being 24 hours could even by the writings in the NT Bible indicate this is not to be taken literally. To discount science because of a literal interpretation of the Bible seems to me to be as inappropriate as discounting the Bible as an inspirational; book because of science.
Well said.
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Yes and no.
Darwin’s theory of natural selection is useful in understanding why species become extinct, and how varieties develop. It is very useful in animal husbandry and agriculture. This, like all good science, is simply observing God in action.
Natural selection is not particularly useful in understanding biology above the species level where organisms cannot reproduce. It is also not particularly useful in explaining the emergence of new biological structures.
You are correct that the overgeneralization and backward extrapolation of natural selection into the pseudoscience improperly called evolution today is an error. It is like saying one can feed sausage through the meat grinder backwards to produce pigs.
Piriripi, your post fails on both logical and biblical grounds. Note that Peter states: “But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (2 Pet. 3:8).
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6 hours ago, PaulS said:
Wow, and you think you are the one qualified to speak for Jesus?
Do you not consider that rather arrogant that you think you are necessary here for that purpose? Do you really feel God is that powerless as to let people be misdirected by this forum and as such, you might be required to intervene?
Paul, I said nothing about God. Your antipathy towards Jesus and his teachings is showing again.
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1 hour ago, PaulS said:
I don't think it is sad at all. There is no 'mission' here and people are free to come or go. The progressivechristianity.org main site offers more in the way of a 'mission' and this resource offers a place to explore. My personal opinion is that enough gets shoved down people's throat when it comes to Christianity, so I like to think of this place as somewhere where that doesn't occur and people can relax and seek their own answers. 'Potential for real mission work' sends a shiver down my spine because that sort of thing always becomes "somebody's" version of 'mission', which I don't think is a good thing. Let God work it out eh!
What you don't seem to realize is that thousands of people are reading these threads every year. There is clearly a space for people wanting to explore and read without wanting to be involved. So your measure of the number of active participants tends to cloud your assessment, in my opinion.
No idea what happened to Piriripi. If he can't be mailed perhaps he has done that of his own accord?
Tell me Burl - you have been an active member here for nearly 4 years. What attracts you to stay with this forum and participating?
Because it advertises itself as Christianity, so there is a need to stand up and speak out for Jesus just in case someone stumbles across the threshold.
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Kinda sad, really. There is a potential for real mission work here, but you sound like a cemetery director. I keep thinking about that discussion with the lesbians about the antitheses. No other Christian forum I know of could host an intelligent conversation like that one.
What happened to Piriripi? I tried to mail him and was told he cannot be mailed.
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My reason was I invited the Progressive Christianity.org Facebook group as well as the Episcopal priest who directs this mission (and the other PC.org leadership) to participate in the forum.
I thought it best to have something active when they logged in, but unfortunately it seems nobody in Progressive Christianity.org wishes to participate.
Why do you think our active membership and participation have dwindled down to three active members and two administrators? We are like Samson depilated.
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Wikipedia is useful for thumbnail overviews and for the references.
I’m always open to change, especially new ways to lead people to center their lives around Jesus Christ. That’s why I like progressivechristianity.org
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3 hours ago, JosephM said:
Burl,
I don't think i can agree with that. (The decline in Christian church attendance numbers follows Western churches adopting progressive theologies) In the US Southern Baptists are down to the lowest in 30 years and they are not in my view progressive in the least. Catholics in the US are also on the decline..
However i do agree that especially Pentacostal/charismatic churches in predominately undeveloped countries is on the rise. Sometimes education gets in the way of people's belief in the gifts of the spirit and miracles. Hence more of it is seen in those undeveloped nations. I personally believe in both the gifts of the spirit and miracles. In my view, sometimes reason and faith are at odds with each other.
We are just guessing, Paul. Very few Christians care much about theology.
Look at how few people read these days. General cultural trends are probably more of an influence than anything else
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11 hours ago, PaulS said:
They do say we are in the information age and I think the access that people have today to biblical scholarship is unprecedented, so I think that probably has a lot to do with changing beliefs. Not that everyone follows the scholarship, but there are enough Facebook pages, Instagram feeds and Pinterest pages to share information that 'debunks' many traditional Christian claims, so I'd be pretty confident technology is widely responsible.
I also think the science of evolution is finally widely accepted by the vast majority now, which of course blows out the whole 'original sin' concept that Christianity has thrived on for so long, so I expect that has taken its toll also.
I do see Christianity transforming away from 'traditions' of sin and guilt and moving toward a new version where being human is better accepted and Christianity seen as a 'way' to leading a fulfilling life, but not the 'only' way. Enter PC I guess which may in fact be holding up those 'Christian' stats just a little bit more than if only traditional choices of Christianity were available.
I've read that sub-Saharan Africa will be 40% christian in the next 20-30 years and obviously there is an increase in Asia also. It will be an interesting change of world affairs as Christianity in the US continues to decline but other nations continue to grow. I also read mixed reports that Islam will be the most populous religion within 10-20 years, so it'll be interesting to see how that changes world demographics too.
Wishful, inverted thinking. The decline in Christian church attendance numbers follows Western churches adopting progressive theologies. The mainline churches have all adopted progressive theologies and the are the ones measured by Pew and dropping in membership.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_population_growth shows the growth is in third world countries where Pentacostal/charismatic churches are flourishing.
If Jesus is divine one needs to be a Christian. If one does not think so, they get eventually drop their faith and focus on involvement in a charity, politics or just stay home and wallow in their imagination.
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I was hoping people would read Judges 13-16 and contribute a bit. Most folks have heard of Samson but few have really read the full story and it’s a darn good one.
Fun fact: Samson dies destroying the Philistine temple of Dogon. There is a African tribe called the Dogon who believe their ancestors came from a particular double star system in Orion. It was not until modern times that this particular star was proven to be not a single star but a double star system.
The Deception of Evolution
in General Discussion
Posted
Here is one thing I am trying to solve. Why was mankind the only species to develop literature, architecture, science, religion, sculpture and the electric guitar?