DrDon

I couldn't agree more! This is what brings me to my choice for a creator beginning. Whether a single source or multiple, whether we are all merely a portion of the expanse of living thought... Whatever we are a part of, it is up to each of us within this unknown vastness of origin, to come to terms with it in a way that allows us to feel safe and secure within it. Due to the central issue being one of improvability (thus far) we are all left to our own determination. I call this 'choice' due to the overwhelming weight of unknowing. Thank you both! This has been a pleasure. Donald

Paul, permit me to clarify that my use of the word 'pettiness' was too strong and, evidently, unclear. For that I apologize. I was only referring to our stalmate regarding choice, certainly nothing beyond. I sensed in your words that my use of 'choosing' was a diminishment on the impact of belief. I do not hold that we stand back in our comfort of control and review possibilities of belief/faith and decide which one grabs us more; like buying a wedding ring in a jewelry store. I do not mean to imply this in any way. I do hold that the 'aha' or 'that's it' moment does contain a subconscious response of 'I will go this way'. George. I suggest that the exponential growth of atheism and agnosticism are directly a result of the advances in science that has so shattered the sheer volume of the unknowns that resulted in 40-50K years of humans filing life in the supernatural folder. Due to the still exploding advances in understanding our world, galaxy, solar system and universe beyond we are unique to the 99.999% position from all of those 40-50K years of human existence. That number holds true for the last 2000 years as well. This is Bishop Spong's point in discussing the near fatal demise of Christianity. He rightfully refers to the quandary of being second millenium humans tying ourselves up into "1st Century pretzels". In a way, I am hearing you offering up a 'genetic' card to maintain an argument for the existence of God. It is a bit backward from the usual examples as it holds that due to humankinds near universal development of a supernatural creator being; through such 'wiring', indeed, such a being exists. Again I will say that I stay well clear of anything that leans toward transcendence (and therefore supernatural). I believe that the glory of the natural/universal laws of the Universe do much more to honor God than calling up the Supernatural can ever hope to do. In fact, I see such things as being a diminishment. I do not accuse either of you of that, by the by. It's just a particular rant that I am often led to trot out! This is enjoyable for me. I hope it is the same for you. If not, please tell me to stop and I will! Best to you both. Donald

George, thank you for your thoughts. I agree that humankind has a need to 'file' that which it cannot understand. The development of an angry God folder for events which are outside the comfortable and safe existence has been demonstrated through extensive mythology and resultant social practices. Scientific knowledge counters with another folder in which to 'file' such things. It is amusing to hear such Evangelical 'authorities' as Pat Robertson continue to to use the angry God folder for such events as the recent destruction of Hurricane Sandy. Clearly hurricanes are phenomena that are a fully natural part of our planets systems. To assign the supernatural to them harkens back to a very ancient mindset. Mr Robertson needs to believe such things to satisfy his choices for how his God works in our physical world. I do not find anything genetic in this. Do you have other examples that would support such a gene? I'd be very interested in that. Best. Donald

By center I am referring to God. There is absolutely no proof that God exists. In spite of everything that mankind has ever come up with regarding God, including quite elaborate religions that go so far as to assign attributes to God, there is not a shred of evidence to support any of it. God is a choice. I believe God exists. I have, like everyone else, created my own version of God to suit that choice and the needs that come out of it. These are my beliefs. I have chosen to pursue this process because I want to for my own personal reasons (needs). I sense that you feel some form of pettiness in this and I can fully understand that. It is very important to me to avoid any form of transcendence in this process. Each of us seek answers in our individuality. We cannot do otherwise. We may be greatly inspired by the concepts of others but even that lands on an emotional level. Concepts either 'feel' right or they 'feel' wrong. We then choose what to do about them. This is not a process of 'making' yourself believe something. I agree with you fully on that. Where we seem to disagree is in the consequence of the 'Aha!' moment, either from within ourselves through our own work, or externally through the reception of the concepts of others. I hold that it is still a choice, you seem to be saying that the content adheres to us without our choosing. I can fully appreciate your stance on that. I hope I've not merely kicked a dead horse in this. My apologies if I have. Best. Donald

Exactly. A belief structure that is no longer tenable, that no longer fills our needs, ceases to be our choice. When we discover that Santa cannot be real we cannot continue choosing to believe. If our long held belief in the fundamental/literal view of Christianity steadily crumbles we must choose what to do about it and, in so doing, choose what our next structure, if any, will be. Many people need to throw out the entire previous structure before they can begin a new search, that is a choice. Carefully exploring new approaches that are contrary to our former belief is a choice. Finding a new way of thinking, of believing and embracing it, is also a choice. I suppose I take this stance because the absolute center, being improvable, is a choice. Because of this, I tend to assign subsequent actions as choices as well. Perhaps we are stuck in semantics and really are in agreement. Best! Donald

thanks paul. please help me to understand arriving at belief without choice. best donald

Hello Paul- I am a very recent member here. Like most enthusiastic 'newbies' I have spewed forth on a bunch of topics. I'm sure the tried and true here will breathe a sigh of relief as I settle down. But not quite yet! I believe that, until proven otherwise, God is a choice. Choosing God doesn't make God real. God remains utterly improvable. I am left with my desire to believe in, and create, the perimeters of God. For me it is personal. I cannot join a collective approach. I don't live there. Belief in God has everything to do with what each of us 'need' God to be, how we 'need' God to act, even what we 'need' God to 'need' from creation and from us. My mind does not find comfort and resolve in the purely scientific approach. I can get on board with every aspect of the extraordinary processes of the universe, including it's physical beginnings. I love all of that! What I have not been comfortable with (at my own deepest level) is the concept of everything from nothing. I 'need' a creator. Belief that everything needs a creator does not attempt to answer the 'next' question, "Then who/what made God? Oddly enough, I don't need to go there. Minds can compartmentalize in the strangest ways! Bibles, Qur'ans or Christian Canon are not elevated into supernatural writings simply because they are said to be so. Human Beings wrote them, Human Beings have commented upon them endlessly and Human Beings use them to accomplish their very Human Being ends. It is up to each of us to determine for ourselves what we choose to believe. There is tremendous honor in believing and admitting that it is merely that. We have a word for that. Faith. Best to you! Donald

Brutaltruth- You adhere to a very complex and detailed faith. If this structure satisfies you in your need to understand God, I applaud that. The very existence of God is utterly improvable. The additional descriptions of God's form, where God lives, what God thinks and wants... all are a further compounding of this initial improvable. That is why this is faith. Each of us bring our individual needs to the table for clarification and satisfaction. It is very personal. Theology is not, ever, science. It often longs to be but, in the end, cannot. My very best to you. Donald

Hhanover- I am new both to this community and to Spong as well. I found Spong via YouTube and both the Chautauqua topics and the very telling and unfortunate 'debates' (as if) between JSS and William Lane Craig. It was all so revealing. I wish you all the very best on your journey. It is FUN!! Best, Donald

Hello George and good morning to you! My sources have been via the writings of the Aramaic scholar and author Neil Douglas-Klotz. More specifically through his titles THE HIDDEN GOSPEL and PRAYERS OF THE COSMOS. It has been a challenge for me, especially in the last 5 years, to come to terms with the easy phrases of my christian upbringing. Terms such as 'God of the Universe', 'Creator of the Universe', etc, have always implied a separation between what is the universe and what created it. This, to me, has always implied that God was either a 'something' within the universe, the same as I am, or 'something' outside of the Universe yet tinkering with it from some yet further somewhere. This has been a limitation for me that I could not function with. I think we can all agree that the greek 'filter', via translation of concepts that were not rooted in the natural vernacular, has had a profound effect upon the definitions that were distinctly different from the greek mind and imagery. Whereas the concepts of Heaven and Hell were more of a condition in the OT (Hebrew and Aramaic), the collision into Greek introduced both as geographical. It is impossible to divorce our translations of translations from the Olympian root and the Hades of Hellenic legend and myth. The Hebrew Sheol is nothing like the raging Hell of Revelation. In his wonderfully challenging book, LOVE WINS, Pastor Rob Bell illustrated this much to the righteous anger of most Evangelical pastors and organizations. If we take a relaxed moment to allow all of the shifts to take place in our mind (at least it did for me) when we place God in the fullness of everything, not what God has made but, literally, what God IS, so many things can begin to reveal themselves as being reconciled. We are able to see a God of incredible vastness. Not a being 'in charge' of such vastness but the vastness itself. This does away very tidily with such concepts as the supernatural and all the populace that goes with it. It makes no sense for such an entity as everything to then create sub-supernatural beings whose sole purpose is to try to throw wrenches into every aspect of the glorious everything. That such a being would be encouraged to aggressively do such things without any perimeters until it ceased being a pleasure for 'God' to watch the ensuing carnage and 'He' snapped Satan out of existence again makes no sense. This Everything functions on the laws of the universe that are not only unbending but, in and of themselves, are a wonderful reflection of the noble everything. "God' doesn't need to go back and forth through time, like the ultimate time traveler (another concept I was raised upon). What would the purpose of that be? All of the possibilities in the future are aligning themselves today all across the universe. Two planets that will one day collide are moving, second by second, toward their mutual demise. A star, maybe even our own, is moving ever closer to it's eventual burn out and end. It isn't magic. It is so much greater than that. It is the very nature of Everything. I will not hang the development that I have worked so hard to discover upon Mr Douglas-Klotz. That would not be fair to him. It started with a simple sentence I read, somewhere, that equated the Aramaic word for God Alaha with the concept of EVERYTHING. It hit me like a lightning bolt and I've been charged ever since!!! George, I will slow down a bit and say that under no circumstances do I believe I've 'got it' for everyone. God is, for the most part, a personal invention of everyone. We make God into exactly what we need it to be. I know a mean hearted, self-righteous man whose God is identical to him. Likewise I know a thoroughly loving Pastor whose God is exactly like her. Atheists very rightly spend a lot of energy denying everyone one else's God and for good reason. I have no use for most, if not all, of other peoples Gods and I really resent the groups that aggress on others to become like them 'or else!'. I think most Atheists are really just super fired up Agnostics who have a legitimate ax to grind. I believe Agnostics are incredibly brave and honest people who have the courage to say both 'I don't know' and 'I refuse to make one until I do know'. Whew!!!! I hope that helps. Being new, my greatest fear is that I am a hindrance. Wishing you the very best in all things. Donald

There is only God. Everything else are constructs of our need to organize. Truly horrific things happen in life. It is part of what goes with the territory of our particular existence. It doesn't necessarily need a Satan to pin it on. It just is. God is not the author of everything that occurs. Creation is bound by universal laws. If we are to be highly complex organisms we must be subject to all that goes with that including disease and diseased minds. People die of cancer because our design holds those potentials, as do all other life forms. Stars die as ours will eventually, this is not satanic, it is in keeping with what goes with the territory of existence. God is always God. All of creation functions within its own perimeters, including terrible things. In the end, we are all just a part of the everything that is God. My leap of faith is that God holds everything all together with love. We can harmonize with that for our own completion or refuse to do so at our own loss. God is still loving.

Tentex- I am very new to this great group of people as well. I am so happy I found it! As for your entry- If you don't mind my offering up my thoughts... Accidental really slams into so many things we have been told along the way either through bible passages or doctrine. What are we left with if 'God' didn't know us before we were born and didn't count every hair on our heads (mine are greatly diminished so the count is easier!)? We seem to lose our unique position and, worse still, we seem to lose our 'personal relationship'. I reconcile this with this (I emphasize that this works for me, it isn't in stone for anyone else)- The entire universe and everything in it IS God, I use the Aramaic Alaha because I need a full break from everything that is attached from my past with the gendered word 'God'. My leap of faith is this; EVERYTHING (Alaha) is utterly aware of itself. Everything is also caught up fully in the universal laws of the universe, no magic, no supernatural. The particular 'soup' of this planet that has led to the vastness of life, and us, is fully within those laws whether replicated elsewhere on other distant planets or not. We ARE here because we are a part of the enormity of the universe that is EVERYTHING. We are, therefore, a part of EVERYTHING, even accidentally. The laws of the universe apply here. We are born and we die but we never stop being a part of the connected EVERYTHING. I believe that the connective element of the universe is love (still my leap of faith) and we have, every day, the opportunity to harmonize with the rest of EVERYTHING through our decisions for love. The 'Good Samaritan', on that particular day, was called to harmonize with another part of EVERYTHING. His love for another piece of the pie was just too strong to ignore. Maybe he never did it before and maybe never again after but on that day he was hooked up and loving. 'I am the way, the truth and the life' addresses this. Fullness in life is found in loving. It is a direction and a way of life. We are all nothing more than a wee piece of the enormity of Everything. What a wonderful thing to be just that! I hope this does not hinder. My very best to you in all things. Donald

George- Thank you for your thoughts. They do augment my belief. Perhaps an addition might be this. Harmony is only possible in multiples. We are designed for community. A single voice cannot harmonize with itself. This doesn't detract from the beauty of the melody of the one. In harmony we gain the increase of potential that can serve to accentuate the original melody with vastly greater nuance and, even, power. Increase this from duet to trio, trio to quartet, quartet to full chorus and we have the last movement of Beethoven's 9th Symphony. Donald

Thank you Myron- It seems to me that Yeshua gave us one commandment when the Pharisees tried to trip him up. Everything else is just a dog chasing its tail. No offense to anyone. My very best to you, Myron, in all things. Donald

dear phild- forgive the lower case, im typing right handed while holding my laptop up. you brought up the issues of prayer and worship. id like to share with you some of my thoughts. i was raised to believe that god was 'there' and we are here. two different places. in order to get something you must ask for it. if you ask for it hard enough you increase your chances of being heard and getting it. using the example of praying for a sick relative. dear god, please make my grandpa well (said over and over with increased fervor), the idea is to get gods attention, inform god of the issue and, by asking for it enough, god will eventually 'decide' a course of action. i know it sounds childish but it really boils down to it. many would say that god already knows of grandpa's illness and has his plan for grandpa anyway. if that is so does the fervent prayer serve to advocate for grandpa for a 'revised' course of action? my journey has led me to a rather different view of 'god' and the way things might work. it is developing all the time but, like all of us, i have invented my version of the unknowable and it works for me. the aramaic alaha is not a something within the universe. it is not somewhere, it does not engage in the suspension of natural laws for supernatural intervention or display, it is not a being and it certainly isn't gendered. it cannot be named as though it was related to any of the descriptives previous. the language of yeshua was aramaic. one of the most common words in aramaic that would be associated with the universal creator is alaha. alaha is not a name, that would immediately limit, alaha is so much more, in fact it is the sum of all there is. alaha is, literally, everything. blow that through the cobwebs around the limiting word we use of god that implies so many subtle and even blatant perimeters. everything is just that, everything, no outside of itself, there is only in. everything that has ever been, is or will be in the ever expanding enormity of the universe and even in potential parallel universes. all of that, yes, everything. us included. the entirety of the physical universe adheres to universal laws, that's why they are called that. there isn't a suspension of those laws for all of the obvious reasons, the universe is physical right down to it's subatomic parts. supernatural beings and events don't bring anything useful or complimentary to the magnificence of the universe. such disney concepts only shrink the already extraordinary into campfire stories in our own very distant past. no one has ever seen a devil, a satan, a demon, an angel, cherubim or seraphim or a pixie named tinker bell. ever. they may have really wanted to but it never happened. period. we don't need that and alaha/everything certainly doesn't. here's my leap of faith; alaha/everything is utterly aware of everything that makes it up. everything. that vibratory awareness, perhaps what we call the 'god particle' is a connective something that might best be called the many facets of love. the universal laws stay in place without halting but the whole thing is alive. being alive it doesn't need to be informed of grandpa's illness. grandpa will either survive the illness or die from it, as he will eventually anyway, based upon the universal laws. enter prayer. love is collectable and aimable. it is like setting aside raindrops for a specific task other than run off or absorption in the ground.the rain falls in its billions of drops but it can be collected for specific use. love is always there, it can do the same. this is prayer both singly and collectively. it isn't having enough of us yelling first for god's attention and then instructing him toward our wishes, it is much more beautiful than that, it is us engaging in the process of aiming love toward another part of everything, like us, and seeing if that aimed love will overwhelm the already acceptable trajectory and alter it in another direction. if planets can collide, even violently (and they do) and if stars die in each of their time (ours will) then life and death of all like pieces of the universe have the same course. it is tragic to us based upon loss and circumstance but i the greater picture it merely adheres to the greater universal laws. we are a living, complex organisms. we are subject to all of the potentials for death that goes with it. we are social creatures and subject to all the potentials that go with that. none of this is borne out of magic, it is borne out of the reality of our existence. it goes with the territory. prayer is the collective use of love to challenge a given trajectory of as common a piece of everything as are the pieces aiming the love. they are all one, they are all desirous of the ultimate best for the whole. prayer does not create miracles. prayer just loves. love does what it must. praying alone is really what we call meditation. collective is the beauty of the scattered coming together and behaving together, where two or more of you are, there will i be also. pretty cool. worship is very akin to that but seeks the collective to reach out toward one another as a body of love as opposed to having a single focus by the many. like a huge net across itself. these are my thoughts. they work for me. my very best net of love thrown out toward you all! donald

I'm new here. Please forgive me if I intrude incorrectly. If indeed we are viewing ourselves as Christians, progressive of course, it seems to me that the pivotal point is to be found in the central message of Yeshua, not before (OT) and certainly not afterward in the baggage of Paul (or those writing using his name. My neighbor is everyone, including the LGBT community. If I cannot find my love for God (Allaha) to include my neighbor than I have turned my back on the central issue. The OT can justify about any form of hateful behavior but we are not held to it. Paul and the writer of John can do the same and we are not held to it. The message is so simple it is always easy to miss. Loving wastefully has no categories. It just is or it isn't. Thanks for bearing with me. Donald

Thank you all for your warm welcome! I would like to share a bit of my path with you and will avoid too many details... I was singing in Toulouse, France in the Spring of 2010. I had been grappling with my uneasiness with the Christianity that I had always known (I am 53) and was in a fever pitch of searching when I came upon some of the aramaic studies and writings of Douglas-Klotz. I read his explanation of the Aramaic word (the language, most certainly of Yeshoa bin Yusep) Allaha. It wasn't gendered. It wasn't a being as I'd understood it. It didn't dwell somewhere, it wasn't a part of something. It was vastly larger, it was and is, in fact, EVERYTHING. That blew my socks off! Nothing from my past spiritual life could fit into this word. There is only everything. Nothing is outside. There is no outside. There is only inside. There isn't a 'there' or a 'here' in everything. There is only everything. The more I let my mind and all of my former limitations go the more I could find my place. I am a piece of everything, just like all the other pieces. I am a part of the Everything that is complete in and of itself. I will stop there. There's so much more that 'clicked' into place after that (still is) but that was my joyful beginning, my revelation. Please feel free to comment on this. I accept that this, as is with all things in faith, is my fashioning of that which is way bigger than I can ever conceive. But it does act as oxygen to me. My best to you all! Donald

Hello one and all. My name is Donald. I am an international opera singer currently singing at the Teatro Real in Madrid, Spain. My journey has led me here via discovering Bishop Spong on You Tube. I found a voice, a heart and a mind that I've sought for a very long time. My very best to each and everyone of you and hope that I can learn and grow from and with you.