AletheiaRivers

I like that. "I suspect that God might be ..." "But sacred ignorance teaches me that that which seems to the intellect to be nothing is the incomprehensible Maximum." - Nicolas of Cusa

Yeah. I was thinking of changing my name to the gyre kid.

That's dynamic unity. My favorite symbol. "If we don't doubt God and our spiritual path, we are out of the gyre. There is no more hum, no music, no movement. We may enjoy the peace of not having to struggle with belief, but that silence may signal the end of spiritual vitality." Gyre: A circular or spiral system of movement, especially a giant circular oceanic surface current. It represents the cyclical nature of reality, and the recurrent pattern of growth and decay, waxing and waning. I am uber obsessed with asking the questions. I do get answers. However, my problem is, I don't sit still with the answers before I'm off and asking another question. "Knowledge always has a wedge of ignorance in it, because the only way to be wise is not to understand everything. Ignorance, too, should have a wedge of intelligence so that it isn't mere stupidity. Real understanding is a creative mixture of certainty and unknowing." - Thomas Moore "The great Dionysius says that our understanding of God draws near to nothing rather than to something. But sacred ignorance teaches me that that which seems to the intellect to be nothing is the incomprehensible Maximum." - Nicolas of Cusa I'm in a quotey mood today.

This is a magnificent phrase! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He is an amazing, amazing, amazing thinker, philospher, Jungian therapist and author. I can't recommend him enough. He's not a fluffy, new age, self help guru. A person who is looking for an easy, feel-good book that doesn't require any thinking, is not going to "get" Thomas Moore.

Actually, that was the thought I had at the back of my mind as I wrote what I did. The touch of emptiness in my faith in God definitely strengthens it. It leaves me open to conversation and change. It leaves me open for that still small voice. The reason I chose "weakened" was because of the effect such an faith has against becoming part of the herd. I've always danced to the beat of my own drum, but doing so has made me wonder if I should hold on so tightly to Christianity, which constantly pressures a person to conform. My Christian faith is "weak," in that I look around and wonder what I'm doing here and if this is where I belong. "If any religious or spiritual act is lacking sacred emptiness, it becomes full of itself and turns into its opposite, a defensive edifice against the cleansing power of mystery." - Thiomas Moore I guess I'm a bit tired of the "defensive edifice" that is much of Christianity. Then again, I could just need a vacation. Here are a few more words of Moore wisdom: "Spiritual emptiness is not literal nothingness. It's an attitude of non-attatchment in which we resist the temptation to cling to our points of view." "Emptiness is the ignorance in our knowledge, the ineffectiveness in our actions, and the transparency in our beliefs." "Maybe just a dot of belief would save the secularist from absorption in his culture, and a dot of unbelief might save the devotee from drowning in his faith." "If we don't doubt God and our spiritual path, we are out of the gyre. There is no more hum, no music, no movement. We may enjoy the peace of not having to struggle with belief, but that silence may signal the end of spiritual vitality." To quote Moore once again (who quotes the Brothers Grimm): Once upon a time there were a father and a son that were very poor. The boy goes with his father to the forest to cut trees, but the boy, foolishly in his fathers opinion, wanders in search of bird's nests. The boy hears a voice coming from the earth at the bottom of an ancient oak tree. The voice is saying "Let me out. Let me out." The boy digs deep among the roots and finds a glass bottle holding a froglike creature. He uncorks the bottle, and the frog becomes a giant, who says that his name is Mercurius and that as a reward for his release, he'll strangle the boy. Cleverly the boy tricks the spirit back into the bottle and corks it. But the spirit begs him to release him, offering him riches. Once again acting foolishly, the boy uncorks the bottle and the spirit is liberated. This time he gives the boy a rag, which he says will heal wounds and turn steel into silver. The boy goes back to his father and picks up an ax. It turns to silver when he strikes it against a tree. He goes to town and sells it for a considerable sum. Now he has money and the precious rag. In the end the boy becomes the most famous doctor in the world. The story is full of references to alchemy. In a sense, the boy becomes an alchemist, equiped with the catalyst for transmutation. The spirit has to be dug up. It is trapped in the roots of the tree of life. It is an ancient tree, this oak, and the story suggests that spirit, too, is to be found, not in the ways of ones own time and era, or even in the themes of ones lifetime, but in the ancient past, in the very nature of things. "Religion" means connected back, and it is by being in a relationship to the absolute past and to the ancient, archetypal roots that we find the spirit. Both definitely. The purity is at its core, its heart. The outer trappings have been adapted. They always have, as Des so wisely pointed out.

Good questions. I haven't purposely blended anything into my faith. It just turns out, as I contemplate and navel gaze, that my "insights" seem to mesh up with certain worldviews. The yin/yang and 'duality in unity' of Taoism probably comes closest to my ontological view. There is a touch of Hinduism in my ontology in that I'm panentheistic. My approach to God might most properly be called neo-pagan, in that I'm very comfortable thinking of God in feminine terms, or even as a blended duality of male and female. Also, I feel closest to God in nature. Ummm, I probably wouldn't use either of those terms, but to keep things simple, I'd say it weakens it, in that I don't mesh up with most of Christianity. However, I don't think a blind (full) faith is a true faith. It's dogmatism. There should always be a little bit of emptiness in our sureity. Heh. What are the basics? Who are the 'best Christians'? Those who believe, but do not do? Those who do, but do not believe? Do we try to get back to original 'Jewish Christianity' by cleaning out all the paganism? What about tradition? Aletheia, feeling very lost lately.

I've had that same thought from time to time.

I refer to this as the "cosmic bellboy" analogy. The movie Bruce Almighty, as corny (and I think loveable) as it was, makes this point well.

Actually, in all seriousness, I'm a mildly avoidant personality type. It's something I've struggled with since I was very little. I 'avoid' in order to not have to deal with certain feelings. I can't even watch the local news because it causes massive anxiety attacks. Thing is, I don't pretend that things are different than they are in order to deal with what may be real. I just don't deal with them at all. Whew. Confession truly is good for the soul.

I spent the evening at Barnes and Noble, looking through various books about Gnosticism. I perused Pagels, Meyers and Ehrman. The book I enjoyed the most (since it seemed relatively neutral) was The Idiot's Guide to Gnosticism. It went into everything just a little bit. I think I'll pick it up later. At the end of the evening I walked out of the store with Thomas Moore's book Dark Nights of the Soul.

You knew I was joshing ya. Don't pretend that you didn't.

deleted broken link.........moderator JM I'm torn about the actions of the counter-demonstrators. On the one hand I understand their loathing of Westboro's activities. On the other hand, I agree with Richard James parents not to stoop to their level, not to play into their game plan. Thoughts?

Probably nowhere without your imput.

OK, I found the links my friend sent to me. They are: http://www.johannite.org/ http://noeticapprehension.blogspot.com/

This is the reply to Erics post in the DaVinci thread. I decided to post it here to encourage more discussion. Rev. Stratford (from the article) has an interesting blog at http://egina.blogspot.com/ He's an interesting guy with a sharp mind. He's a Sophian Gnostic, ordained by and active in the Apostolic Johannite Church, and wrote an interesting book called the Da Vinci Prayer Book http://thedavinciprayerbook.com/ that does more justice to Gnosticism (than Mr. Brown). I also think he's the one that described Gnosticism (or at least the current group of active Gnostic churches) as Catholic on the outside and Buddhist on the inside. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cool blog. It's gonna keep me busy for a while. An online friend of mine sent me a link to a Johannite Gnostic Church site. I'll have to see if I can find it. He (Stratford) has a great blurb on dualism that I find refreshing. Some gnostics I've talked to are so "Evil, evil, matter is evil and must be escaped!" that it's kept me from investigating gnosticism for a long time. Stratford says: The Gnostic view is vastly more subtle, and therefore easily misinterpreted. To use a pop-culture reference, "The Matrix cannot tell you who you are." The world is not in and of itself evil. Flawed, yes - red in tooth and claw and all that. Disease. Hunger. Age. Disaster. But not by its nature evil. It is more a question of the created world not being the source of our spiritual selves, and therefore less spiritually relevant. An approach much less cut and dried. Rather than a rejection of the Earth, Gnosticism involves a challenge to and negotiation with the System, or cosmos. A subtle yet critical distinction. Natural allegories, such as storms, the planting of crops, fish, newborn babies and flowers are recurring positive themes in Gnostic literature. Would world-haters employ such symbolism, and so lovingly? I just started reading The Soul's Code by James Hillman, a Jungian psychologist. In it he discusses the "acorn theory" of life. In a nutshell (which is actually the title of the first chapter) the book is about how each of us have a "calling." He uses Plato's story of Er and the three fates and how we each have our own "daimon" which nudges us towards a specific fate. Although he doesn't espouse any particular religion and would prefer to keep such concepts within the realm of psychology, his words make it clear that "soul/spirit" is an important facet of his theory. I've gone from being a monist to a dualist, to a monist, to a qualified monist (which is pretty much a dualist).

Edited to delete follow up to above deleted post.

Edited to delete post. I started a new thread.

- Just because mopes like us ... don't know of such materials - stuff out there that has been found, IMO, that will never-ever see the light of day - that is too threatening to the status quo - decades to be fully revealed because of the fears regarding what they might contain - CIA was involved in the original handling of some of the scrolls - mind control techniques - we wouldn't know it, we'd only be forced to live with the results - clandestine intelligence budget - clandestine stuff - clandestine monitoring - Conspiracies do exist - I am not, by nature, a paranoid ... personality Quiz: Which of the above statements is not like the others? How's did the tinfoil shopping expedition go flow? Followed much? Monitored much?

Gnostic priest addresses Da Vinci Code controversy By Mark Browne Victoria News May 26 2006 Even followers of Gnosticism have something to say about The Da Vinci Code. But the Capital Region's only ordained Gnostic priest doesn't have the same concerns as conservative Christians angered by Dan Brown's novel and the movie based on the book. While many have suggested that The Da Vinci Code is rooted in Gnosticism, Jordan Stratford says that isn't the case. Stratford's position is explained in his just-released book, The da Vinci Prayerbook. Many Christians denounce The Da Vinci Code for its premise that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and that the couple had children. The novel and film takes the view, which is consistent with the fourth century Arians, that Jesus was a man and not a divine figure. Gnostics, on the other hand, consider the image of Jesus to be a purely spiritual being, according to Stratford. "Purely spiritual beings tend not to have children," he said. However, Stratford stressed that the notion of Jesus as a spiritual being - and all of the other stories about Christ - should be viewed in a strictly metaphorical sense. "Gnosticism does not rely on historical literalism in the same way that Christianity does," Stratford explained. "Let's ask the bigger question about what this stuff means." The idea that Jesus married Mary Magdalene can be understood as myth that conveys the "marriage" between Christian tradition and the older religions of the divine feminine, he said. Moreover, that marriage can be interpreted as a balance between the masculine and the feminine. "Gnosticism teaches that Mary Magdalene is an expression of the myth of Sophia, the goddess of wisdom and of the holy spirit." The idea of the sacred feminine was quite prevalent until the fourth century when the Roman church opted for a more patriarchal approach to Christianity with a sole emphasis on Jesus and a de-emphasis on Mary Magdalene. There's no way of knowing with any certainty whether Jesus married Mary Magdalene and that they had children, Stratford said. At the same time, it's irrelevant whether that hypothesis is true as he reiterates that it's all about the metaphorical meaning. All that said, myths surrounding the history of Christianity have an important purpose. "It invites the reader into a mythic space where they can sort these things out for themselves," Stratford said. "These things aren't valuable because they are literally true. They are valuable because they are beautiful." Gnosticism has been around for the past 2,200 years. It's a religion that greatly influenced early Christianity, Islam and medieval Judaism, he pointed out. The origins of Gnosticism occurred in a community of Greek-speaking and educated Jews living in Egypt. The religion is essentially a blend of Jewish mysticism, Greek philosophy and the mystery religions of the ancient world, Stratford said. Gnosticism is similar to Buddhism in that it stresses personal responsibility, compassion and enlightenment, he said. The 40-year old has been a practicing Gnostic for the past 18 years and now oversees a congregation of 12. Stratford is a priest with the Apostolic Johannite Church. That branch of Gnosticism was established in 1770 by Freemasons, he pointed out. While people of all religions can be members of the Freemasons, there is a strong historical connection to Gnosticism, according to Stratford, a Freemason himself. People of different religious faiths can also be followers of Gnosticism, he said. Gnosticism is particularly suitable for creative people because of the poetic nature of the stories encompassed by the faith. "Imagination is prized as a Gnostic value," Stratford said. While Stratford has concerns about the common perception that The Da Vinci Code is inherently Gnostic, he's quick to point out that the release of the novel and subsequent film is a positive development despite opposition by many conservative Christians. "It's a starting point for discussion. I don't think anybody should be threatened by debate and dialogue." For more information on Stratford's book, see the website, www.thedavinciprayerbook.com. BCNG Portals Page

Really? No kidding! Hehehe. If you want it to be a conversation, I'd put it in the Progressive forum. If you want it to be open for argument (and crankiness ), put it in the Debate forum. Personally, I don't think it has to go in "Other Traditions" because we are talking Christianity here (even if most would consider it heretical). Monica (the admin) will move it if she feels she needs to. Sounds good to me. I've been studying "awakening" all morning with a view to emanation theology. Hi Eric!

Hi MOW. I've wondered the same thing from time to time. A couple of months ago I was reading something, not sure what now, when it dawned on me that it's better that Jesus didn't write anything. It sounds absurd now, as I write this, but it seemed so clear at the time. I do believe that an epistemological distance between us and God is necessary. I think free will is that important. Perhaps Jesus' not writing anything directly plays into that?

Great post John. I had never heard that Bundy quote before. He killed my sister's best friend here in Utah. I've always had a particular loathing for him. Total depravity is a doctrine that blows my mind. I find myself getting angry at men like Calvin and Luther, long dead. I'm able to "own" (that's not quite the right word) the doctrine of 'original sin' from something like the Eastern Orthodox perspective (which I never knew was so different from most interpretations). Evil like what is found in certain humans bothers me, and muddles my brain. If, as your post pointed out, such persons were psychotic all the time, we could chalk their behavior up to brain damage of some sort. But more often than not, they are not insane and often have very high IQ's.

Gnosteric, I would love to hear what attracts you to gnosticism. Are you attracted to any particular early gnostic (Valentinus? Who?). Go on! Spill it. This seems the thread to do it in. Let's talk emanation. Demiurge. Sophia. Archons. Anything.

Don't tell me this thread is dying already!? (Kidding). Seriously though, somebody toss out a thought. Rant. Don't rant. I don't care. It's a whatever-goes thread.