mystictrek

What inspired me to start this thread in the first place, was thinking about mankind's being "fallen." It's been my experience that most progressive Christians don't "believe" in original sin or the fall as traditionally taught by the Church, and so, the whole idea of living in a "fallen" state is ignored.

 

I believe in original sin but I also believe in the "deeper magic" (term used by CS Lewis in the NARNIA CHRONICLES) of original blessing as Matthew Fox has taught. St. Paul said that sin abounds but grace abounds even more. Luther said "sin boldly" with the idea that the more sin there is, the more grace there is. But that can sure be misused. It's a theological point, not an ethical point. In resurrection, Jesus overthrows the curse of original sin with the "deeper magic" of the original blessing. This is an ongoing process so that it is necessary to keep pointing out the power of the curse while emphasizing the greater power of the original blessing.

Great topic.

I think the teaching of the Buddha that there is a middle way between strict ascetism and gluttony is basic common sense. God gave us a feast to enjoy and its OK to enjoy but excess sooner or later ruins the enjoyment.

Jesus contrasted his way of enjoying the feast with the strict ascetiscim of John the Baptist.

I believe that the practice of stillness is the key to a balanced life. I believe periodic fasting makes sense but is not necessarily essential. Fasting may be essential for some people on certain paths of discovery and enlightenment.

There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the practice of stillness is essential sooner or later. Boy, do I resist this practice day after day after day. I have developed a system of opening up to our here and now heavenly life at my website (below). Stillness leads to detachment leads to humility. Silence leads to discernment leads to healing. Solitude leads to devotion leads to holiness. Simplicity leads to delight leads to heavenliness. Heaven is the here and now experience of abundance, joy, wisdom, beauty, love, truth, peace, justice and freedom. Love is at the center of these heavenly attributes. Love makes the world go 'round. Love is everywhere.

Be still and know that I am God. Be still and know that I am love. Be still and know that I love you. Be still and know. Be still. Be.

Namaste!

I probably agree with the views of  gnosticmary more than the average TCPC member as I subscribe hook, line and sinker to the perennial philosophy approach of thinkers like Alan Watts and Aldous Huxley.

Classic perennialism, especially of the eastern variety embraced by Watts, never tried to spell out the world of forms in pseudo-physical terms like etheric realms, astral bodies, electromagnetic fields, and so on. Yes, the realms of forms "make" the realms of manifestation what they are; but the two aren't thereby collapsed into one. Neo-gnostic and New Age systems seem to do this; but it's clear that, among ancient gnostics, for example, some took the mythologies literally, while others did not. As far as I'm concerned, to take these descriptions too literally is to make the same mistake Christians make when they take the Bible too literally -- the realms of universals and particulars are confused and collapsed, and the point is missed.

 

Gnostic and even some New Age terminology systems contain some very penetrating metaphysical insights, when approached in an allegorical sense; but again, taking them literally is the shortest possible route to lots of confusion IMO.

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Oh, the mysteries! I have experiences in my life which make me believe that at least some if not all of the gnostic models may be, at some level, a reality of the universe ... but who knows?

Watts did indeed turn to Zen Buddhism in the end but in his earlier days when he was a Christian or possibly as he was slowly departing from his life as an Episcopal priest he wrote a book called THE MYTH AND RITUAL OF CHRISTIANITY which includes an elaborate description of beliefs which could be described as Gnostic or Mystical or Esoteric.

The point is that the perennial philosophy is the basis of *all* wisdom traditions including elaborate systems like Esoteric Christianity and simple or even empty systems like Taoism and Zen Buddhism.

Another great ancient Sufi mystic is Hafiz. He really makes me laugh. I saw some contemporary Sufi whirling dervish dancers from Turkey in a movie recently but can't remember which one.

Thanks, Jerry, for this topic. At SPIRITUALITY & HEALTH I just found a short article called "Five Things We Cannot Change" by David Richo, a Buddhist > http://www.spiritualityhealth.com/NMagazin...icles.php?id=87

The 5 things are:

1. Everything changes and ends.

2. Things do not always go according to plan.

3. Life is not always fair.

4. Pain is part of life.

5. People are not loving and loyal all the time.

Great topic!

I probably agree with the views of gnosticmary more than the average TCPC member as I subscribe hook, line and sinker to the perennial philosophy approach of thinkers like Alan Watts and Aldous Huxley. I have found that one of the greatest Christian movements displaying PP characteristics is:

THE RESEARCHERS OF TRUTH > http://researchers-of-truth.org

The man who started this movemnt is called Daskalos. He was a great teacher and healer on Cyprus. His teachings gained some popularity on this side of the pond because of the semi-fictional trilogy written by a Cypriot-American professor at U of Maine named Kyriacos Markides > http://www.ume.maine.edu/~SOC/markides.html

love,

mt

Adorable baby.

I am enjoying my first grandchild, Emily, born 4/21/04. She lives 3 miles from Mary & I so we see her a lot. I need to upload newer photos but you can see a progression at http://www.pbase.com/abundancetrek/emily

Howdy everyone...  Just dropping by in between naps to share the news that our son Jonathan Samuel was born early Wednesday morning, August 3, at 3:07 AM.  He tipped the scales at an unbelievable 9 lbs. 10 oz., and 22.5 in.!  Everybody is doing great.  Life is truly a miracle.

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Congratulations ... a little late!!

I have long proclaimed that "Merry Christmas" isn't really an appropriate greeting until the twelve days of Christmas begin on December 25 (or at the Christmas Eve service on 12/24). I would love it if O'Reilly would use his "pulpit" to teach people about the meaning of the 3 Christian seasons of winter: Advent, Christmas and Epiphany. Who decided that Christmas begins on Thanksgiving? It sure wasn't the church. Advent challenges our society to simplify our lives in ways which most of those trying to enforce "Merry Christmas" can't and won't embrace.

Tell O'Reilly: It's not Christmas yet! It's Advent. It's time to say: "Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly."

I have come to think of hell as eternal, opaque repetition; and, heaven as eternal, transparent change.

 

Or think of it as being a soul that either has an eternal case of acute obsessive-compulsive disorder (doing the same thing over and over without EVER getting it right ) as compared to being a musician who never runs short of the ability to perform novel improvisational riffs; or, maybe an artist or poet who never runs out of novel subject matter to create.

 

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I like your definition and description a lot. I tend to use the categories I learned from Kenneth Keyes in THE HANDBOOK TO HIGHER CONSCIOUSNESS. He suggests that we cling to addictive ego-bound states which are quite limiting. When we get free of our addictions we can truly enjoy paradise here and now.

I do agree that any notion of a "God" who literally tortures people by throwing them into a never-ending furnace for breaking his laws is repugnant.  This isn't divine "justice" or "holiness" as some people claim -- it's pure bloodthirstyness, a projection of the worst human abuses of power onto God.  At the same time, as I've largely come to read the core stories of the Bible archetypally and allegorically, I ask myself what reality might the "eternal torment" view of Hell -- which does come out of the mouth of Jesus in the gospels, and is pretty hard to miss in Revelation -- possibly be pointing at?

 

I think it comes down to two things.  First, choice.  Hell is our persistent willful choice to remain separate from God, and to stay wrapped up in attachments and identities that create pain and suffering and destruction, for ourselves and everyone around us.  However, since God is the eternal Ground, the True Self of everything that exists, real separation from God is actually impossible.  We are all equally eternally surrounded and bathed in the radiating love of God; the difference between Heaven and Hell has to be in our own hearts.  To a heart that continually rejects its inescapable union with God in favor of the impossible condition of separation, the radiating waves of God's love actually feel like flames that are trying to destroy us.  The fact is, we're really in Heaven, and always have been -- we only believe we're in Hell.  As C. S. Lewis says, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside."

 

Secondly, patience.  God so thoroughly respects our freedom to choose union, that God allows us to persist in our rejection eternally if we so choose.  The "eternal" in "eternal torment" isn't so much a statement about our punishment, as it is a statement about God's patience.  It points to the fact that God will never abandon our hearts to self-destruction; God will wait forever if need be.  Origen -- and possibly even St. Paul, though that's debatable -- long ago, and Unversalism today, believe that God's grace is so irresistable and so powerful, that every person will eventually return to God.  I have to say I resonate more with this view than with Conditionalism, which feels to me like God eventually gives up on you and puts you out of your misery if you reject him long enough.

 

Overall, I think the "traditional" doctrine of Hell -- symbolically, of course -- does point us in the right direction by emphasizing both our freedom and God's infinite patience.  That's my $.02, take it for what it's worth....

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I love what you wrote here. I posted the following on 11/23 on another string but I think it's relevant here:

I believe that God created Heaven and we created Hell so, naturally, we know far more about Hell than Heaven! I believe Hell is a little part of Heaven and we don't have to stay there but there are many temptations there so we stay for long periods of time and keep going back. This is addiction and we are all ego-bound addicts striving for a better way.

I believe we are always in heaven but ordinarily (in most cases) don't know it. God created and is creating a realm of abundance, joy, wisdom, beauty, love, truth, peace, justice & freedom. Love is at the center of this creation, this creativity, this happening, this feast. It's always happening. It's wonderful. It's fantastic. The new church for the new age (not organized as an institutional church by any means) is the vehicle of awakening, awareness and connection. Love is the source, guide and goal of everything there is.

The discipline of being still is the way to know this glorious reality.

+ "Be still and Know that I am God."

+ "You do not need to do anything; you do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You do not even need to listen; just wait. You do not even need to wait; just become still, quiet and solitary and the world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice. It will roll in ecstasy at your feet." -- Franz Kafka

If you click on mystictrek's profile, it shows that he has contributed 0.98% of the total forum posts.

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Yeah! Party on, dudes!

I believe that God created Heaven and we created Hell so, naturally, we know far more about Hell than Heaven! I believe Hell is a little part of Heaven and we don't have to stay there but there are many temptations there so we stay for long periods of time and keep going back. This is addiction and we are all ego-bound addicts striving for a better way.

Well, that's what I believe right now at this moment anyway.

At my website I offer some of my thoughts about heaven. I believe we are always in heaven but ordinarily (in most cases) don't know it. God created and is creating a realm of abundance, joy, wisdom, beauty, love, truth, peace, justice & freedom. Love is at the center of this creation, this creativity, this happening, this feast. It's always happening. It's wonderful. It's fantastic. The new church for the new age (not organized as an institutional church by any means) is the vehicle of awakening, awareness and connection. Love is the source, guide and goal of everything there is.

The discipline of being still is the way to know this glorious reality.

+ "Be still and Know that I am God."

+ "You do not need to do anything; you do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You do not even need to listen; just wait. You do not even need to wait; just become still, quiet and solitary and the world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice. It will roll in ecstasy at your feet." -- Franz Kafka

I'm a great fan of the perennial philosophy or mysticism. Aldous Huxley wrote THE PERENNIAL PHILOSOPHY in the 40s. It's part of my Bible! So is MYTH AND RITUAL IN CHRISTIANITY by Alan Watts. Watts left Christianity behind and became a Zen Buddhist but he demonstrates in this book how our Christian wisdom tradition fits into the perennial philosophy. He offers great insights into the seasons of the church. I have believed for a long time that the church year with all of its seasons is the best teaching tool we have.

I would love to share thoughts about these 2 books and other PP books with members of this forum.

I will wait patiently for sharing here since I know how busy the holiday season can be. But Advent is a good time to share thoughts about PP. I am more and more convinced that the discipline of being still is the only essential discipline since it slowly but surely opens us up to the greater reality, heaven.

+ "Be still and know that I am God."

+ "You do not need to do anything; you do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. You do not even need to listen; just wait. You do not even need to wait; just become still, quiet and solitary and the world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked. It has no choice. It will roll in ecstasy at your feet." -- Franz Kafka

Hey Kendra

I'm also new. I'm learning to be Christian and came (back) to it through Thich Nhat Hanh, Thomas Merton, CS Lewis so I'm glad to see there's so many here  lean Eastward.

 

I look forward to getting to know more about Progressiveness, Christianity and all y'all.

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Welcome to a great forum.

U2, REM, the Stones (of course), the Who, the Cranberries, Todd Rundgren, Kate Bush, Beatles, Dylan, and on and on.

I have a Yahoo! Radio Station where you can listen to all my favorites > http://launch.yahoo.com/lc/?rt=0&rp1=0&rp2=1215882842 < it might work!

I did my D. Min thesis on the church and rock'n'roll. I described rock'n'roll as a medium of play, protest, passage and prayer. I typed it on an electric typewriter in 1982 so I can't provide a copy.

I guess my work made a difference. See what a former youth member of my church in Michigan (in the 80s) wrote about me > http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa/horizons/hrznno...rtsoulvoice.htm <

love,

mt

Can we have a party? One of my favorite R&R songs is Twisted Sister's "You've got to fight for the right to party!" The heavenly feast is spread before us but we often don't partake. Let's party!

This is the stuff that I find both fascinating and intuitively sensible.  I do not know much about taoism but am given to understand that zen and tao do share a lot of common wisdom.  The idea of a changing God, or perhaps a God that manifests, in one way, as change, is not problematic for me. 

 

In zen it is suggested that nothing is permanent, all is changing all the time.  If we posit a God that includes all of creation, I don't see how it can be any other way except that this God is changing, too.

 

Perhaps we're too quick to assign the dualistic qualities of good and bad to the idea of permanence/impermanence. 

 

I think many people tend to feel that a permanent quality of some sort would be "good"... that is to say, it would provide some sort of haven from the unpredictibility of life.  Yet, I have found that when things are really observed, I am hard pressed to find a single thing that is not subject to change. 

 

Accepting that change is perhaps the only true constant means accepting that, like it or not, we really do walk our respective paths in uncertainty, with no real permanent thing to attach to. 

 

I think that, perhaps, this desire for permanence is what happens to religions as they evolve.  We want to codify tradition into some set of unchanging rules and forms, because we feel that if we have something to hold on to that doesn't change, we'll find or create a safety zone in that religious practice. 

 

So we build up institutions to try to clarify what "should be" and to establish rules and protocols with the assumption that there can exist some really True and unchanging Truth that is the same from all perspectives, throughout time.  These rules and protocols become ossified, etched into stone, accepted unquestioningly.  We seek a safe haven in them and in so doing we shun the unfolding, everchanging experience of living that is available to us right now, in every moment. 

 

Okay, I'm rambling here... just some thoughts on impermanence and change which came to mind today as I read this thread.

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Lolly, I love your rambling. You can ramble here all you want as far as I am concerned.

Welcome Kendra. You have found a great little corner of cyberspace. There is a lot of wisdom and love shared here. We are making progress!! and, as Ronald Reagan said ( for GE), "progress is our most important product. Of course, GE left our part of the world and left a lot of pain and environmental damage in its wake but I still like the slogan! I don't know what got me on that rant! Again, welcome and have fun here and grow with us.

I have come to really appreciate the eastern approach to analyzing the things of this life. Dharma has always been a favorite concept of mine. It's meaning is really quite simple and apropos' to the clip you posted in the exchange between wise person #1 and wise person #2.

 

When you protect order it protects. When you destroy order it destroys. This theme is universally prevalent in the new sciences concerning complex systems, and should be a touchstone for all of us in our daily lives.

 

However, change from the old to the new is possible and inevitable, but it must be transparent, gradual, and slowly done in small steps in order to harmonize with the universal principle of dharma.

 

flow....

 

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Yeah!

A great short flick on the web I just got > http://lightmovie.com/ It was sent to me by Wayne who has a great spiritual website > http://www.thefourprecepts.com/propublish/

I am going to memorize those 4 precepts right now!

One or 2 of my WT came out easily. Another one required a little surgery and it took me a month or 2 to recover fully. I hope you recover faster than that.

11/11/05 >

Subject and object from the start

Are no different,

The myriad things nothing

But images in the mirror.

Bright and resplendent,

Transcending both guest and host,

Complete and realized,

All is permeated by the absolute.

A single form encompasses

The multitude of dharmas,

All of which are interconnected

Within the net of Indra.

Layer after layer there is no

Point at which it all ends,

Whether in motion or still,

All is fully interpenetrating.

- Zhitong (d.1124)

http://www.dailyzen.com

I usually download dailyzen for myself and sometimes share its wisdom with others. I really like today's.

!

It's hard to say.

 

Here's my interview question: Have you ever had a mystical experience? If so, describe it.

 

Peace,

M.

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Yes. One was on a dentist chair. OK, it might have just been a "laughing gas" experience but I have never forgotten the enlightenment I experienced so I think God was using the drug to guide me on my way. I came awy believing that although there is much pain in the world (boy did that tooth hurt!), there is even more, no, far more, joy (boy did it feel good when the drilling stopped!). From time to time I feel like I access that kind of awe / awakening / awareness / connectedness in various ways.

Oh, now I have to think of a question.

Do you have a hobby which takes a lot of time and money and how would you describe it both materially and spiritually?

I haven't read much of this string but I do have a thought to share anyway!

It seems to me that we each need a certain fundamental foundation in our lives whether we get that in childhood or through adult experiences and reflection. But, then, sooner or later, we find that we need to explore the big world. My denomination -- Presbyterian USA -- was once quite fundamentalist but a consensus developed that exploration was preferable. We lost members as that consensus grew! Most people seem stuck in their need to stay at home with that secure foundation under them. But I also believe that most people appreciate the explorers and sooner or later find a way to embrace them. We are in a period of reaction rather than progress here in the States but "this too will pass."

mt

 

I would have liked being in your congregation!

 

flow....

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And I would love having you in my congregation! Thanks.