PaulS Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 27 minutes ago, Burl said: Because it advertises itself as Christianity, so there is a need to stand up and speak out for Jesus just in case someone stumbles across the threshold. Wow, and you think you are the one qualified to speak for Jesus? Do you not consider that rather arrogant that you think you are necessary here for that purpose? Do you really feel God is that powerless as to let people be misdirected by this forum and as such, you might be required to intervene? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted February 19, 2020 Author Share Posted February 19, 2020 6 hours ago, PaulS said: Wow, and you think you are the one qualified to speak for Jesus? Do you not consider that rather arrogant that you think you are necessary here for that purpose? Do you really feel God is that powerless as to let people be misdirected by this forum and as such, you might be required to intervene? Paul, I said nothing about God. Your antipathy towards Jesus and his teachings is showing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted February 19, 2020 Share Posted February 19, 2020 9 hours ago, Burl said: Paul, I said nothing about God. Your antipathy towards Jesus and his teachings is showing again. Apologies then, as my assumption was that you believe Jesus is God. If you don't believe that, then I was mistaken. But as for your claim that I have antipathy toward Jesus - you couldn't be more wrong. My aversion is toward those who claim they are speaking out for Jesus, as you did. I have met plenty of those and I think they are arrogant and misguided to think they actually understand Jesus and all that he was and stood for. As it says and asks on the PC homepage - Progressive Christianity is an open, intelligent and collaborative approach to the Christian tradition and the life and teachings of Jesus that create pathways into an authentic and relevant religious experience. Do you find more grace in the search for meaning than in absolute certainty, in the questions rather than in the answers? Do you have religious interests and longings but cannot accept the beliefs and dogmas you associate with Christianity? Are you repelled by claims that Christianity is the “only way”? Do you find solace, meaning, or connection to the teachings and the path of Jesus of Nazareth? So when I experience one such as you that claims they are speaking out for Jesus, my concern is that nobody has all the answers and to pretend they do, is fraud. I have seen people's certainty about Jesus cause much harm. It is my hope that you aren't also responsible for this harm to others, but fear that with your certainty about what you understand about Jesus, that you indeed may be. I hope I am wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted February 19, 2020 Author Share Posted February 19, 2020 56 minutes ago, PaulS said: Apologies then, as my assumption was that you believe Jesus is God. If you don't believe that, then I was mistaken. But as for your claim that I have antipathy toward Jesus - you couldn't be more wrong. My aversion is toward those who claim they are speaking out for Jesus, as you did. I have met plenty of those and I think they are arrogant and misguided to think they actually understand Jesus and all that he was and stood for. As it says and asks on the PC homepage - Progressive Christianity is an open, intelligent and collaborative approach to the Christian tradition and the life and teachings of Jesus that create pathways into an authentic and relevant religious experience. Do you find more grace in the search for meaning than in absolute certainty, in the questions rather than in the answers? Do you have religious interests and longings but cannot accept the beliefs and dogmas you associate with Christianity? Are you repelled by claims that Christianity is the “only way”? Do you find solace, meaning, or connection to the teachings and the path of Jesus of Nazareth? So when I experience one such as you that claims they are speaking out for Jesus, my concern is that nobody has all the answers and to pretend they do, is fraud. I have seen people's certainty about Jesus cause much harm. It is my hope that you aren't also responsible for this harm to others, but fear that with your certainty about what you understand about Jesus, that you indeed may be. I hope I am wrong. You quote the PC.org homepage as the leaven of the Pharisees. I don’t believe that was the intention of the authors. No one has the answers, but some of us can indeed use the bible and the teachings and life of Jesus to point towards the truth as it is being revealed to us. What we all share are intelligent and heartfelt questions, care and concern for others, and the use of the role model and teachings of Jesus as a means of exploration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Burl said: You quote the PC.org homepage as the leaven of the Pharisees. I don’t believe that was the intention of the authors. To the contrary, I quote it so that you might better understand that PC doesn't feel the need to defend Jesus as the only way, or indeed, doesn't feel threatened that others see Jesus differently than traditional Christianity. To me it seems that PC has so much more faith in God than that. I would disagree about your judgement of the authors. Quote No one has the answers, but some of us can indeed use the bible and the teachings and life of Jesus to point towards the truth as it is being revealed to us. The 'truth' is a dangerous game and to claim that one 'knows it' based on such scant evidence is arrogance. Indeed many us do use the bible and the teachings and life of Jesus (as understood by us but not necessarily a historic truth) to give our lives meaning. But personal fulfillment aside, PC encourages one to not be afraid if their beliefs don't align with traditional Christianity. Again, I guess PC's simply have more trust in God in this area. Quote What we all share are intelligent and heartfelt questions, care and concern for others, and the use of the role model and teachings of Jesus as a means of exploration. Even people with good intentions can be wrong and can cause harm. I certainly agree with exploration, it's the certainty that I see promoted that is a danger. Again, my God is much bigger than needing to 'get it right' and doesn't need me to defend on God's behalf. I should also add that when people say they are speaking "for" Jesus I do get concerned that they think they already 'know' what there is to know about Jesus, which to me seems contrary to everything PC encourages and embraces. Nobody can speak 'for' Jesus but Jesus himself - the rest is just speculation - well intentioned or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 On 2/19/2020 at 1:15 AM, Burl said: Because it advertises itself as Christianity, so there is a need to stand up and speak out for Jesus just in case someone stumbles across the threshold. Burl, I took this to mean as you said 'speaking out for Jesus' not 'speaking for Jesus' as was interpreted. Correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, thormas said: Burl, I took this to mean as you said 'speaking out for Jesus' not 'speaking for Jesus' as was interpreted. Correct? Yes, I meant it exactly as I wrote it. Thank you for pointing that out. Everyone misreads at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Burl said: Yes, I meant it exactly as I wrote it. Thank you for pointing that out. Everyone misreads at times. As you said: what you wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 2 hours ago, Burl said: Yes, I meant it exactly as I wrote it. Thank you for pointing that out. Everyone misreads at times. I'm not sure who you think misread you Burl, because when I said "So when I experience one such as you that claims they are speaking out for Jesus, my concern is that nobody has all the answers and to pretend they do, is fraud." - I thought that would be pretty clear I had read you properly. Maybe you think another has misread you? My later post simply expresses the same concern about people who say are speaking 'for' Jesus, which for the reasons I explained mean very little difference to me than someone who claims to be speaking 'out' for Jesus - i.e. that they think they already 'know' what there is to know about Jesus, which to me seems contrary to everything PC encourages and embraces. Nobody can speak 'for' Jesus but Jesus himself - the rest is just speculation - well intentioned or not". Perhaps you have never seen the harm such certainty in Jesus has caused others - I have, which is why I am somewhat challenging to people's claims about certainty of beliefs around Jesus and God. Numerous previous posts have demonstrated your certainty about much about God, the bible and Jesus. You are entitled to your views - I was just questioning your motive and understanding when you say you are speaking out for Jesus here, as though it is required. At times you have made your distaste for PC and this forum plain (wasn't it you who said this forum had nothing to offer the thinking Christian?), and yet at others times you seem to indicate you agree with Progressive Christianity thought. If I need to clarify for either you or Thormas, to speak 'out' for Jesus holds for me the same concern as speaking for Jesus - that is that the 'speaker' has drawn their conclusions about Jesus. Maybe you could differentiate for me how you understand speaking 'out' for Jesus here if in contrast to speaking 'for Jesus? Perhaps you could explain it in the context of your actual post referring to this forum where you said "Because it advertises itself as Christianity, so there is a need to stand up and speak out for Jesus just in case someone stumbles across the threshold." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burl Posted March 2, 2020 Author Share Posted March 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, PaulS said: I'm not sure who you think misread you Burl, because when I said "So when I experience one such as you that claims they are speaking out for Jesus, my concern is that nobody has all the answers and to pretend they do, is fraud." - I thought that would be pretty clear I had read you properly. Maybe you think another has misread you? My later post simply expresses the same concern about people who say are speaking 'for' Jesus, which for the reasons I explained mean very little difference to me than someone who claims to be speaking 'out' for Jesus - i.e. that they think they already 'know' what there is to know about Jesus, which to me seems contrary to everything PC encourages and embraces. Nobody can speak 'for' Jesus but Jesus himself - the rest is just speculation - well intentioned or not". Perhaps you have never seen the harm such certainty in Jesus has caused others - I have, which is why I am somewhat challenging to people's claims about certainty of beliefs around Jesus and God. Numerous previous posts have demonstrated your certainty about much about God, the bible and Jesus. You are entitled to your views - I was just questioning your motive and understanding when you say you are speaking out for Jesus here, as though it is required. At times you have made your distaste for PC and this forum plain (wasn't it you who said this forum had nothing to offer the thinking Christian?), and yet at others times you seem to indicate you agree with Progressive Christianity thought. If I need to clarify for either you or Thormas, to speak 'out' for Jesus holds for me the same concern as speaking for Jesus - that is that the 'speaker' has drawn their conclusions about Jesus. Maybe you could differentiate for me how you understand speaking 'out' for Jesus here if in contrast to speaking 'for Jesus? Perhaps you could explain it in the context of your actual post referring to this forum where you said "Because it advertises itself as Christianity, so there is a need to stand up and speak out for Jesus just in case someone stumbles across the threshold." Paul, split that hair however you please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 28 minutes ago, Burl said: Paul, split that hair however you please. Well it's obvious that I have, as opposed to misreading you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 (edited) One can be a PC (and embrace all things PC) and still 'speak out for Jesus' without any pretense and people do it on the various PC sites. To do so is not to deny other ways but it is to present one's take on Jesus (which in many PC circles is the result of significant study about Jesus and Christianity). Actually given one's study, some actually do know more than others but this is not to say, nor do they say, that they know all there is to know about Jesus. Most people, most PCs agree with the PC points. Speaking of scholars again, some 'speculation' is much more highly valued and valuable than other speculation: it is not 'just speculation.' This appears to be a false leveling of the ground: Ehrman and Hart are not just dealing in speculation. Given their expertise, language skills and knowledge of the history in question, they actually know a great deal and bring it to bear making it not as speculative as the typical 'man on the street.' For one who considers him or herself a Christian, it is fine to speak out for Jesus and to present what you know/believe. In the face of statements that are wildly at odds with Christianity or to simply present an insight that could be helpful - it is an internal obligation to present one's own belief. Again, it is done throughout the PC universe. Edited March 2, 2020 by thormas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulS Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 11 hours ago, thormas said: One can be a PC (and embrace all things PC) and still 'speak out for Jesus' without any pretense and people do it on the various PC sites. To do so is not to deny other ways but it is to present one's take on Jesus (which in many PC circles is the result of significant study about Jesus and Christianity). Actually given one's study, some actually do know more than others but this is not to say, nor do they say, that they know all there is to know about Jesus. Most people, most PCs agree with the PC points. Speaking of scholars again, some 'speculation' is much more highly valued and valuable than other speculation: it is not 'just speculation.' This appears to be a false leveling of the ground: Ehrman and Hart are not just dealing in speculation. Given their expertise, language skills and knowledge of the history in question, they actually know a great deal and bring it to bear making it not as speculative as the typical 'man on the street.' For one who considers him or herself a Christian, it is fine to speak out for Jesus and to present what you know/believe. In the face of statements that are wildly at odds with Christianity or to simply present an insight that could be helpful - it is an internal obligation to present one's own belief. Again, it is done throughout the PC universe. I agree wholeheartedly, that in general, one can be all those things. Whether that is the case or not was what I was trying to discuss with Burl, but I accept Burl's decision not to discuss further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thormas Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 11 hours ago, PaulS said: I agree wholeheartedly, that in general, one can be all those things. Good stuff, on this we agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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