Burl

We need the bible.

The bible often used a vinyard as an analogy.

Grapes grow on two year old wood.  Year one just leaves and a new shoot.  Fruit year two, then the branch should be pruned off.

But the stem is maintained and fertilized.  That is the Bible and tradition.  You injure the stem and the whole plant dies. 
 

Spong is wrong.  Protestantism could not have formed except in relation to RC corruption, and PC could not have formed except in dialog with superstitious Christianity.

We should recognize the Hegelian dialectic and use it to encourage new thought and prune the old carefully but leave the central organization.

2 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

I agree

In the Old Testament, sometimes it really seems to be about insight and experience of the Devine. Other places it really seems to be something negative, harsh and unfair. Not at all what I would call God or, as Spong would say, "Not a god I would be inclined to worship" (or something like that, from his book "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism) 

Every book is different and has its own context.  Jewish scholars sort our OT into four collections, which makes plenty of sense.

7 minutes ago, thormas said:

I get that there were Jewish collaborators but a Nazi? And of course we get that there are America Nazis today.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1996-12-24-mn-12209-story.html%3f_amp=true
 

Just now, thormas said:

Does that mean he is a Jewish Nazi?

 

Yes.  Plenty of Jewish Nazis.  American Nazis too.

I can understand how a young man can be caught up in events.  I don’t understand Soros’ lack of regret.  
 

Just now, PaulS said:

It happens.  The trick is knowing it's happening before somebody has to point it out to you I guess, otherwise you're just contributing to the same old manufactured, false narrative.

I just checked and the quote was attributed to “The Australian”.  Can you get behind the paywall?

And are you part of the lockdown?  Or is it lockdownunder?

1 minute ago, PaulS said:

This is the false statement you post earlier in this thread.  It is fake news.  It never happened.  It is the epitome of propaganda.

Did you post this because you were providing an example of fabrications to suit a manufactured narrative, or did you not use your critical thinking skills to discern a falsity?

Fooled me.  Not the first time.

1 minute ago, Elen1107 said:

What do you have from Josephus and Maccabees on this subject?

I can look tomorrow.  Those are the first two books I would pull.  

I don’t remember anything about the various Jewish sects in the NT.  Just Jesus and the other Pharisees.
 

5 minutes ago, PaulS said:

So did you post that false statement attributed to Soros because you did not not use critical thinking skills to discern accuracy of the statement?  Surely you don't want to be part of the propaganda spreading by attributing false statements to people, irrespective of what you otherwise think of them.  Surely the truth is more important than the 'argument'.

What are you going on about?  Soros is an unrepentant Nazi.  The words came out of his own mouth.  Sending rich Jews to the camps so the Reich could steal their stuff was the highlight of his life.

His words; not mine.

13 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

The one that really gets me is the blonde, blue eyed Jesus. Now how likely is that. Thing is everyone, at least most groups, depict Jesus as looking like them. In a certain way it is a complement to the man. The real thing is however, when one really thinks about it, Jesus himself wouldn't care one bit what we look like, what our race is, or whether we look like him or not. At least the Jesus that I know and understand wouldn't.

-------------------------

I've been thinking about the whole Saul/Paul thing. It's evident that he was working with the authorization of the chief priests and the Sanhedrin. In Acts 12 we have Herod and Roman soldiers arresting the apostles and other Christians. Any chance that the chief priests and the Sanhedrin could have been in cahoots with Herod and the Romans? If they were, then one might surmise that Saul/Paul could have been in cahoots with them too, and that's why we get all the pictures of him looking like one or at least working with them.

I've got to read Acts again, as well as a few of Paul's letters, it's been a while since I've done that.

The Sanhedrin were the Vichy government of their day.  I would look at Josephus first, then Maccabees.

7 minutes ago, PaulS said:

Is that why you posted that false propaganda concerning George Soros?  To demonstrate there are false absurdities out there like that, and we can expect people who don't use their critical thinking skills to swallow that manufactured narrative?

Soros is an old Nazi.  He was part of the third reich and now the globalist fourth.

1 hour ago, thormas said:

Burl, I don't doubt the guy citing the evidence known to him. And again, no one is supporting the violence here

As for evidence: the police reported that hundreds peacefully protested yesterday (8/2/20) and miles away about 200 were violent. I and many others support the peaceful protestors and are totally against the violence. If one cop encountered the violent rioters his experience and evidence would be different than the cop encountering the peaceful protestors.

People have a right to peacefully protest and cops have a right and obligation to confront and arrest violent rioters!

Agreed.  I’m not pushing any agenda, but evaluating the quality of the evidence.

Everything is saturated with propaganda now, and we are being encouraged to go along with manufactured narratives and not use critical thinking skills.  

It’s important to discern primary sources from secondary ones and actions from words.

5 hours ago, thormas said:

This is one guy with his perspective...............I respect it but he is one guy.

Not just a perspective, but solid evidence.  He caught the mortar shell with his chest; he deflected the rock and has the police reports with the eyewitnesses and video footage (per interview).

Thormas, do you live in Portland like the guy in the interview or are your crowd estimates based on someone’s report?  Or are you guessing?

15 minutes ago, thormas said:

I don't like chocolate 😦

Burl, you're barking up the wrong tree. No one here and the majority of the protestors are not violent - just like all police are not racist thugs or don't care about all the people in their community. So too on the other side. To say otherwise, to generalize is to pre-judge, i.e. is to be prejudice.

The peaceful people have not all left, where are you getting that and who can possible track all the peaceful people in all the demonstrations?

 

The rioters come out at night and the “protestors” go away.  It’s in the interview. 

1 hour ago, thormas said:

Please my friend, there are also those on the other side who knelt, hugged and prayed with the protestors. 

Again, no one here is for violence, the discussion is the peaceful people.

And you must know that there have been white nationalist types destroying property - I actually watched a video of one breaking glass in a storefront .......and then they showed who he was. OOPS and he's not on the protestors 

Suppose you have a chocolate milkshake.  How much dog poop can you stir into it before it becomes undrinkable?

Policemen blinded by lasers.  Clay mortars fired at police.  Fragment bombs.  Rocks.  All organized and directed.

The peaceful people have all left by this point.  It may have been a milkshake earlier but not anymore.

2 hours ago, thormas said:

OR.............the protest against the targeting of especially black men, police brutality, some possible refunding and the freedom to demonstrate continue.

The majority are peaceful and many believe the violence is wrong and counter productive.

 

PLUS...........the point remains that the monuments are symbols and cause harm to particular communities.

 

Listen to someone who knows.  Peaceful?  Police brutality?  Minority activism?

2 hours ago, thormas said:

Good lord, the statues and monuments are not merely 'inanimate objects' - they signify and symbolized something beyond themselves. It is what they symbolize (and the people who perpetuate that symbolism) that cause actual harm. 

Such real human suffering/harm on the part of black men and women should not be dismissed by "each to his/her own."

The monument destruction riots have been over for a month.  Now the BLM focus is on the violent attacking of police, occupying public property and defunding law enforcement.  
 

18 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

Sometimes it's dumped on the people who have been hurt to make things all better and alright. While the people who have done the wrong and the harm do nothing whatsoever, or just make things worse.

Sometimes it's the best these people can do just to put it up to God ... say it's not my stuff and put it up to God and keep it there, cause it's not their stuff.

You’re not wrong, but speaking precisely makes a difference here.  “Put it in God’s hands” is vague and a bit callous.

Better to teach them how to put it in God’s hands by praying for the offender.  Why use platitudes when you can be specific?

56 minutes ago, Elen1107 said:

What about all the things that the bible says a person should do if they have wronged someone else?

They should own-up/confess - apologize/say they are sorry - make amends/make up for it - change/repent in behavior as well as words.

If a person has done all this, and the person they've done something to can't forgive them, well, then that's on them.

If a person has done all they can to make things right and make things better, and has truly changed and is not repeating the thing they've done wrong, and is not using forgiveness as an excuse to keep repeating the behavior, and not making it the other person's responsibility to set them striate all the time or control them because they can't or don't or won't control themselves,... then they should be forgiven.

If forgiveness is just an excuse for getting away with things and passing off responsibility,... Then there's a limit to it.

You are conflating contrition, attrition and apology with forgiveness.  Repentance also sits in this lexical domain.

It’s often necessary to forgive people who are dead or otherwise not available for comment.

The path to forgiveness is holding an image of the person you want to forgive and praying for their health, success and happiness.

Done properly it is the hardest thing you will ever do and it takes a whole lot of repetition.  Years even.

1 minute ago, thormas said:

Statistics are an interesting thing as one can play them in different ways.

Elem mentioned NY but then focused on NYC. Do I remember correctly that the vast majority of deaths were in NYC as compared to the rest of NY? And as Elem stated, NYC is uniquely different in that it is "the most densely populated city in the US."

 

Most people given incredibly high praise to Cuomo and the Mayor(?) of Savannah has actually reached out to him for guidance in his own city. The Governor of Florida.......not so much.

Cuomo is called “The Grandma Killer” because he went against medical advise and forced nursing homes to admit C19 patients and caused excessive fatalities.

Here in Florida we had a high rate (60+%) last month but it was an error caused by labs reporting only positive results.  Now that is fixed and the positive test rate in my county is 4.9% with an average age of 79.9.  

C19 is essentially a danger only to the elderly in long term care here.  YMMV.

2 hours ago, Elen1107 said:

She is great! Your video lead me to another video of her, she is really great.

 

AJ is a treat.  Two things I really like about her:

1) She honors the text down to last jot and tittle, and tries to accurately read what the author intended.

2) She reads in order to ask deeper questions instead of looking for answers.

1 hour ago, JosephM said:

Those are extreme examples and i understand the reluctance to forgive but when one realizes that they themselves if they were born into the bodies who did this to them and had the same genetic makeup and life experiences they would be that person. While we may deem one worse than the other the fact is we have all at one time erred and as James 2:10 says " For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." And as Jesus said in Math 6:15 and in the other gospels "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." One can argue against those words all day but if i know one thing in Christianity for a fact by personal experience i know those words to be spiritually true.

Forgetting is not a requirement but forgiving is. We learn from experience by not forgetting but peace comes by forgiveness. Without it there will be no peace and little joy in life. If i am sure of anything in life , that i am sure of.

Forgiveness is the only way to rid yourself of resentment.  It does nothing for the other, but everything for the self.

1 hour ago, thormas said:

I have read her before but never seen her and never seen her like this: she is great.

Good find.

She has several wonderful classes online at Great Courses.