Brianmhager

I know in other forums, I am a minority of one. I consider that it may be the same here.

I do not see it as after anything. I know that God created all there is and I know, in my heart, that when he finally brings time to an end we go on in him.

Some years back I thought I lost my faith. Now I know what was wrenched from my grasp was all my petty little personal beliefs I picked up along the way in church and from family members and friends. They were my toys. God "broke" them; that is, he took them away because they came between me and him.

He wanted me to have a vital, living, breathing relationship with him I found in prayer and return to all the time. That relationship, I think, will continue beyond the grave for me. The biggest single question in my mind is, will I experience my relationship with God as Heaven or Hell in what is to come? Ultimately, it depends on what I make of it.

There is a "strain" of Christianity that would say that all that is necessary to have "salvation" is the accept Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. Is it that simple?

I have listened to these folks over the years and their "pitch" always begins with a Litany of Proof Texts strung together from the Jewish Testament and the Christian scripture to show me where I have gone wrong. Their claim is that by doing this deed they urge on me, I will “go right.” Really? Could it be more simple than that?

The title of this topic:

"I Tell You, This Man Went To His Home Justified..."

Refers back to Jesus' parable about the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. He tells his audience that it was the Tax Collector's cry of unworthiness and request for Mercy. According to the Law, the man knew he was a sinner. What was it about the prayer of this unclean soul that Jesus remarked about his "Justification?"

In the sermon on the mount, it seems to me, that Jesus provides the answer.

"Blessed are the poor in Spirit, their's is the Kingdom of God."

Righteousness - or Justification - is not a direct consequence of something we do. So the formulaic approach to "Being Born Again" or being "Saved" does not CAUSE the desired result. Like the first three Steps of the 12 Step program(s), the Tax Collector (in his prayer) states, "1) I can't, 2) He can, 3) I want Him to do it!"

I know for myself, right now, that I am a sinner. I have been a sinner all of my life. I will continue to be a sinner until the moment of my death. Why?

I am a limited and finite human being. I do not possess "divine omniscience." I only know one thing. My "salve-ation" comes from what God does in and through me. It is His action; His unconditional Love which "heals" my fatal flaw and fills me up so I am whole. The idea of Justification or Righteousness reflects that basic truth to me. It is also a distilled version of the Gift of Faith I received when I was finally willing to accept what He wanted to give me; what He has always wanted to give me, all of us.

That is my understanding of why the Tax Collector went home Justified.

Brian

How does this remind you of the Parable of the Pharasee and the tax collector?

Kay

I saw his portrayal as the epitome of the tax collector's cry of unworthiness. Quite simply, like all of us he is a sinner and has experienced the depth of his sin. In the face of Unconditional Love we will eventually all feel our wretchedness. Yet Jesus does not condemn or judge us, He does not tell us how bad or evil we are He shines the blinding light of His acceptance into the hole in our hearts and makes us "whole."

Alas the Pharisees of our world - past and present - are so focused on avoiding sin or balancing the scales they fail to notice the absolutely unbelievable Love and Grace God, through His Son's Resurrection - showers upon the world. I do not say this to judge or condemn; they judge and condemn themselves by the judgement they too often pass on others. Remember the words of the Pharisee as he prayed, "I thank you Lord that I am not like other men ... or like that tax collector." I can only imagine how much such a soul succeeds in walling God out of their lives, because He does not look or act like the God they have already fashioned in that hole in their souls. It is like the statue King Nebuchadnezzar sees in his dream. In time, the statue or idol we all create for ourselves will be struck down.

I recall that when that happened to me, I thought I lost my faith. It turned out that it wasn't my faith I lost, but the golden calf I fashioned out of my own beliefs. I went from being a Pharisee to feeling the agony of the tax collector (or the bad lieutenant).

Brian

Heaven is a real place...

How can Heaven be a place? Place suggests finite physicallity. My understanding of what may come after this is that it is eternal - without end or limitation of any kind.

Peace,

Brian

I would like to recommend a wonderful book to all of you. It's called, "CRISIS" by Mitchell Gold.

It's an anthology of various individual's Coming Out Experiences, most in the context of their faith life and some accounts by a couple of parents - at least one who tells the story of her daughter who felt compelled to commit suicide because she felt her daughter was wrong; much like the "Prayers For Bobby."

There is also a witness by a gentleman who is, or was, an evangelical and it's billed as "An Evangelical Applogizes."

The book, I believe, was inspired by the rash of young gay men committing suicide in the last several years.

You all might find it highly inspirational and educational. I know I did.

Brian

Hell is supposed to be a place of punishment for those who deserve it. I don't believe that God gets His jollies by sending people to hell.

So, Hornet, what is your view of Heaven, in addition to Hell, & Free Choice (or Free Will)?

Brian

Do any of the authentic Pauline letters condemn homosexual behavior?

George

Have you read Bishop Spong's book, "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism"?

He has an interesting take on this. Someone appearantly suggested to him that Paul may have been repressing same sex attraction.

At first, I thought that was a bit "stretched."

But Spong went on to point out similarities between what Paul wrote in many of his letters and well known individuals today who are rabidly homosphobic, like Ted Haggerd, who were later caught up in a gay sex scandal.

I am not totally convinced, but it was enough of a crumb trail to open my mind to that possibility.

Peace,

Brian

I would have thought, if anything, that anyone who was to die and be in God's presence looking back on what they rejected, they would then be welcoming God with open arms, rather than continuing to reject him/her/it.

What is key for me about the rejection is the idea pushed by many today who portray a particular image or conept of God as the "Condemning Judge." They run around telling people that "they'd better be careful or God will send them to Hell!" Really?

Is God really doing the judgment or are they? And if their veiw of God is "not entirely" correct (I use that term loosely), does it resemble them and if their view of God does resemble their beliefs, preferences, values, would they recognize the God of Love when they finally stand before Him/Her/It?

It does make me question though what the relevance may be of rejecting the God of your understanding. What would your understanding have to do with it - either you're rejecting God or your not aren't you? I can't see how one's understanding of God would come into play, particularly if that understanding of God isn't the correct one.

I don't think God particularly cares. Unconditional Love doesn't keep track of wrongs or rights, it only seeks to give itself away. However, if someone cannot accept Unconditional Love - especially for those they consider WRONG - and rather cling to their own "self image, self-created-image" of God would they find it in themselves to then embrace God and the people they spent their lives condemning? I can't really answer that. I only consider that I try to allow God to show me who S/He is in and through the lives of the most wounded, broken, and marginalized of our society. Again, I won't lay the idea of what a person's disposition in the afterlife will be at the feet of God. I consider it a "personal choice." Just as I believe that the methaphor of Adam and Eve (I don't consider it a literal history) was that in the context of the story, they turned their backs on God and Left the Garden. Why?

I think it has to do with the choice of Trees they ate from. These fictional characters demonstrate how we can choose either to "know it all," or accept Life - whatever that may be.

Does that help you understand my view any more?

Peace,

Brian

I still don't quite understand just how you understand a soul after death rejecting God. To you, is this a conscious decision on the part of the person to continue to reject God and live...well, how?

 

The greek word "Apocalypse" means literally, "to pull aside the veil." In this life, we live by faith, not by sight. The longer I live, the more I am aware of daily acceptance or rejection of God's coming to me in each present moment. Yet, what I accept or reject here is without the benefit of standing before God as s/he is. When I finally die and enter into the Lord's presence I will see, fully, what it is I have rejected or accepted in this life. My hunch, and I am really only speculating here, is that if I fully rejected the God of my understanding here, I will see in totality, the subject of what I rejected. I don't know, but my thoughts are that it will be more difficult to embrace the truth of God then.

All of this, for me, was a way to reconcile what I was taught since my childhood with the growing awareness of who God really is as I grew and matured in faith. Could I be totally wrong about all of this? Perhaps. Yet, it is the understanding that I possess today. How that may change tomorrow? I haven't got a clue.

As an example, I have left the Catholic Church because the direction of that institution no longer paralleled my faith trajectory, but I know I must remain open to someday going back. Why? How?

That is something only God can answer for me. Much of what I believe today is the result of God's light illuminating my path and inviting me to Love more deeply.

S/he continues to apply a healing salve to my wounded soul. Therefore I am being saved/salved.

It doesn't give me a truth or philosphy that is better than anyone else's. I simply share what I see on my journey and offer it because as a human person I am seeking to find my own way; my own voice in this world.

Peace,

Brian

That all makes this salvation thing all about being 'lucky enough' (yeah, God's will crap) to run into someone that will tell them about Jesus and Christian salvation, and 'wise enough' (gullible enough?) to accept it as truth in any of the really outraegous forms it may be presented to them. I could never see god placing such a burden of a 'choice' on everyone without even letting all of them in on what choice there was or even that there was a choice!

 

I could not agree with you more Jenell!

I arrived at my current view after a very difficult struggle to overcome my former "Roman Catholic" exclusive salvation thinking. I could never wrap my mind around the notion that only Catholics were going to be saved, because - according to the Church - the "fullness" of Grace resides in the Catholic Church.

I sought to make a more inclusive view for myself in the idea of Heaven or Hell Freely Chosen by the acceptance or rejection of Love in one's life; not the "right" set of beliefs. I appologize if I was not clear about that. My brain can be my own worst enemy. I forget to include details that would make myself better understood. Much in the same way that people will often forget to include a word in something they write because they're thinking too fast for their fingers to keep up.

Brennan Manning, the author of The Ragamuffin Gospel, helped me to finally accept the idea of a more inclusive view of "salvation." By "salvation" I am not refering to the more traditional definition of "being saved." I prefer the meaning of the root word in the term, "salve;" a healing ointment or balm. Just as my personal definition of the word "sin" now refers to a "lack" of God's presence in my heart when I fail to Love and accept those God calls upon me to embrace. I don't believe God wants me to be a doormat, but rather, am I willing to be a conduit for His/Her Love and Grace to those I perceive to be in need.

So Heaven or Hell - for me - has become the inevitable outcome of my willingness to genuinely Love (and not hate) the people I meet. Sometimes real Love has to be tough - That is where I tend to fail most often.

When I think of my Final Destination, I am aware that it is available to everyone, because everyone is capable of Love and receivintg God's Grace - again, not in the traditional definitions of those words or ideas, but a universal application that excludes no one and allows for the individual religious practices of the entire human race. I don't have to be exclusive in my faith for it to be efficacious for me.

I hope I've made more sense. If you require any further explanation or qualifcation from me don't hesitate to ask.

Peace,

Brian

However, religion is sometimes used as a rationale to give our underlying prejudices divine authority.

 

"Yeah. The Devil made me do it!!!"

"MMMM.... Could it be Sa - tan?"

Brian

I wonder what they would feel if we set up an ex-fundie movement. Whether this is politically correct or not we would (IMO) have more chance of succeeding in such an endeavour than those who insist they can change someones sexuality.

Hey Pete,

There already is one! It used to be called the way, of course now it is called Christianity!!!!

Brian

Destructive, harmful, none of my business. Why should I insist on someone changing their orientation?

 

George

Thank you George. I recall a discussion I had with a classmate the Seminary I attended; Sacred Heart School of Theology in Milwaukee. He was studying for the diocese of Louisville, KY. He told me his sister had been involved in one of the Ex-gay ministries and finally came to the conclusion that none of it worked.

I agree. I know of no one who would choose that as an "option" for their lives. But appearantly their are still numerous denominations who believe it is something that can be changed. Very sad.

Brian

I do not desire to muddy the waters of this discussion, but I am curious to know what you (who have been engaging in this conversation) think about the origins of orientation and programs (like the ex-gay movement) designed to change peope, or make them straight.

If you think this could really be agitating a bunch of africanized honey bees let me know and I'll drop it.

Peace,

Brian

If you view sin in the general paradigm of bondage, and not just as "bad things you have done," then the problem disappears.

The only bondage I really see John is to my own "false image" of myself or God. As such my hands are too full to receive what God has to offer. Whatever the "bad things I have done" in this life I see as a consequence or symptoms of my sin. Which comes first the chicken or the egg? For me the Pharisees were a prime example of individuals who were so enamored of their own "righteousness" that they failed to see how they rejected God and failed to recognize Jesus as sent by God.

I can not except the idea of Lucifer (or Satan) as the Great Evil many fundamentalists portray him as. He is a "temptor" for sure, but the claim, "The Devil made me do it," is a bit of a cop-out.

I think what I am gravitating towards here is the idea of "Progressive" as continued growth and openess to TRUTH wherever I find it.

If you think I'm wrong about my take on your point, please educate me.

Your brother in Christ,

Brian

Now, If God is unconditional Love and Unconditional Love is given away freely without condition, then how can it be a condition that we must accept or reject that love?

In MATT. 5:43 – 45 Jesus says, “43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.”

If human beings fail to accept what God gives us freely, without condition, what is it that prevents us from receiving his Love? If we do possess FREE WILL where is the “Sin?” If we don’t possess FREE WILL how can we be held responsible for anything?

I there is more I can respond to, but I need a little time to reflect your questions and concerns...

Your brother in Christ,

Brian

More later,

 

For if we do not know the truth (i.e. are not omniscient) in this life, then it is almost certain that we would choose to embrace the love of God upon death and realizing the truth. It is only possible for us to say that those who reject God in this life, would reject Him in the next life, with any certainty if we are omniscient.

 

I personally do not believe the soul survives death. When this mortal body perishes, our soul/spirit will return into the oneness of God. We are like cups of water drawn from the river, which is the Sacred. When we die, our cup is poured back into the river. We die into God.

John,

I made a conscious choice to stir clear of "debates" a very long time ago. I grant you that I am far from being omniscent, which is why I believe in the Unconditional quality of God's Love. I am also convinced that it is up to me to accept or reject that Love. I no longer hold a traditional view of Sin, so I am positive of God's charity toward all of us. I share what I see based on my experience. Since we both cannot literally stand in each other's shoes at the same time, I will accept your view as important to you. I wouldn't try to convince you of anything else when it comes down to it.

I do like your image of the cup being poured back into God. How did you arrive at that view? Do we necessarily "die into God?" Or do we find that beyond the veil that seperates the finite world from eternity there is only one reality without limit or border that is God?

Sincerely,

Brian

I wonder what sort of soul you think might stand before this God of Unconditional love, which of necessity gives itself away freely, yet refuse to draw near to Him/it?

 

Paul,

Thank you for your question. Ever since my experience in the fall of 1993 (see my introduction under "55 Year Old Former Seminarian - Now Former Roman Catholic."), God forcefully pulled my crutches away and left me bereft of any consolation or succor. I see now, after all the time that has passed, that it was necessary for me to realize that what I had mistaken as my faith were actually only those "beliefs" I had learned from my parents and more so from the Church. When I finally did receive the Gift of Faith, I began to grow in a relationship with the Lord which is available to all of us.

One of the key verses from the New Testament which began to cycle back into my life was Jesus' words, "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." I looked at various different commentaries, but was never wholey satisfied with the explanations.

One day I decided to look up the footnote on the bottom of the page where I first read it (MK 13:14 - NRSV). It pointed back to the book of Daniel and the reference to a king that conquered Jerusalem and put up a statue of himself in the Temple in the Holy of Holies. In the past 2 - 3 years, I began to see a further connection to the account in Daniel to King Nebuchadnezzar's dream. I meditated on the vision of the statue with the head of gold, neck and shoulders of silver, etc. and a fuzzy view I held of Heaven and Hell came into sharper focus.

What happened to me in the Fall of 1993 was that the idol I called my faith was struck at the feet of clay and iron and the entire edifice crumbled to the ground and was blown away as a fine dust. When Jesus later spoke His name, he established a relationship with me that has grown into a new mountain of the Lord - His presence in my life. From that I saw how much in the past I (and still to this day) I put myself at risk by passing judgment on others. It is from the memory of that fallen idol that I do that. The sad reality was that the image of God that used to guide me in my life had my face stamped upon it. Like so many I remade God into my own image and likeness.

If I had succeeded in persisting in living my life that way I could very well have eventually entered heaven maimed. God - the true God - would not have looked like me and I believe I would have rejected His Love. That is because reality didn't operate the way I thought it should. God didn't operate the way I thought He should. In the book of Revelation, John (whichever John he is) writes, "They called to the mountains and the rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!' REV 6:16)."

Is it possible to experience God's Love as wrath? It may be, if the soul who faces God has not died to its own image of itself and God. In the response I wrote above to a question or concern by Dutch, I wrote about my concept of "sin."

on 22 April 2012 - 10:50 PM, I wrote:

My definition of SIN evolved out of the sentiment you express. In Spanish, there is a preposition spelled the same way. It means "without." When I first saw that, it struck me how perfectly it defined the growing awareness of what sin was/is in my life. Jesus said to pray without ceasing. When I considered how non-existent my prayer life really is I examined how I prayed and and what that meant for my "eternal disposition."

I grant you that I am not a scholar, nor an expert on the Bible. I did learn during my time in Seminary that there are multiple layers to the meaning of various Scripture verses. I do not claim an exclusive, personal revelation to any of this, but believe it to be a way in which the Lord sought to allay my anxieties and fears in the face of those who threw "proof texts" in my face as a way chipping away at my faith in an effort to proselytize me.

I am more than willing to carry on a dialogue about this, but keep in mind, I am sharing from my own personal experience. I can only share my story with you. Much of it represents my personal opinion, but it does stem from the Light I walk by.

Sincerely,

Brian

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Brian,

 

This 'free will' concept is one that I have difficulty with and has been litigated here from time to time.

 

George

George: All "free will" means to me is the ability we all possess to accept or reject God's knock at the door. Will I or won't I answer the door and let Him in. Or will I stand on the other side as He knocks and say or do nothing?

I personally think religion of the fundamentalist variety has really muddied the waters on just what God wants from us.

I am have come to believe that because God is the essence of Unconditional Love, I believe He created the Universe and us so that He could Give Away that Love. I think is safe to say that the nature of Unconditional Love is that it must, of necessity, give itself away freely without condition. Most churches these days put a ration of requirements and "shoulds" on our receiving that Love.

God will give to anyone who asks, no matter what condition that soul may be in.

If I am wrong about any of this, I'm in a lot of trouble!!!

Brian

Heaven and hell are states of mind and heart that we move in and out of in this life. I just wish I had more control about which one I am in.

I agree with what you stated. I guess I am more weighted toward the "heart" side of things in the way I move in and out of Heaven and Hell. My definition of SIN evolved out of the sentiment you express. In Spanish, there is a preposition spelled the same way. It means "without." When I first saw that, it struck me how perfectly it defined the growing awareness of what sin was/is in my life. Jesus said to pray without ceasing. When I considered how non-existent my prayer life really is I examined how I prayed and and what that meant for my "eternal disposition."

Not only in the manner of "formal" prayer, but also in most of my thoughts throughout any given day, I am aware of God's presence and His love in and around me. There has been one important consequence of all of this for my continued spiritual growth; I am now, always have been and will continue to be a sinner until the day I die. It is one of those things innately part of the human experience. It is God's great desire that I spend eternity with Him enjoying his eternal and Unconditional Love.

Today, when I am aware of choices and actions - or lack of action - that people traditionally define as sins(s), it reminds of just how much I need to invite God back into my heart. I can never do that enough or perfectly. I cannot be certain about my final place in the hereacter, but I am certain that God wants me to with Him and in Him. Having spent some time involved in Al-anon, I view the idea of confession (in the Catholic Church) as being on a parallel with the 4th and 5th steps of the 12 step programs.

To face how frail and faulty I really am is to face how "powerless" I really am and how little or no control I have over a many things - including my sinful nature. I will - at the very least - always forget to include God in my every waking moment for as long as I live. Sin reminds me of that and eventually I remember to turn back jump into prayer of some kind. It doesn't bother me any more that I can't control so much of my life. The first three steps of the 12 steps reminds me: 1) I can't, 2) He can, 3) I think I'll let Him.

Brian

Hi Everyone, I have been reading and digging for some time to better understand the progressive movement...

6) ...If asked about Hell, the PC would almost never say who will and won’t go there, and would likely say that hell and the devil are misunderstood archaic tribal notions.

 

- Eric