Eric333

Hi JAF. I have been in a very similar situation, and my best take on it in hindsight is that you be you (don't pretend to be someone you're not) and let them be them (don't try to convince them that you are right and they are all misunderstood....at least not in that forum), and if you cannot "tow the company line" of the churches belief statement in front of the youth (it is probably declared on their website) then you should probably leave instead of challenging them in front of the youth. That's my $0.02 anyway...

I would probably say that I don't think my belief system is "true"... and I might also add that any ultimate belief bystem is probably best referred to by it's acronym (BS).

Hi, we meet again (from Chrisitan Evolution) I've participated here for a few years and its a good group of folks and lots of good discussion.

Hi NDLXS, as you likely know, the Nicene creed was a response to Emperor Constantines inability to handle variation in the church (and his need for control). He wanted uniformity and agreement, so he sat a bunch of bishops down and told them to develop a creed. Who knows if they even all believed it. What I do know is that it was a bunch of human beings, like you and I with no special powers and a lot less evidence than we have today, carrying out an order for their Emperor. And it is something that has stuck. I don't recite it but if I did I would find my own meaning in it and ignore what I couldn't reconcile. We know that's what many Catholic priests do...

Eric

Nyh, I think a good criteria for choosing a church is to steer clear or churches that think the Bible is literal, or those who follow Paul instead of Jesus.

Hi AnneInTX

Those feelings are very natural, and they're built into the whole system. It is designed to bring doubt, guilt, and fear if questioned.

I recall once reading Mark 9:42 (which I had read many times prior) but one time it hit me differently. It says "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."

I realized that I am one of those people who cause little ones to stumble. I ask tons of questions and cause fundamentalists to think about things they were blissful not to care about prior. But I feel like we're better to have humility (even if it is knowing nothing for sure) instead of forcing made up BS (thats Belief Systems not Bull Shi....:-) on everyone else that causes war, biases, and myopic contentions.

Anyway, today I think that God (for whatever that may mean) would more likely be glad that we are seeking truth and not following mindlessly, while also helping people understand that he isnt that bearded wildman from the Old Testament (I think "he" must hate that rep). Maybe God really likes people like us who think deeply and seek truth at all costs? Maybe he's guiding us to break the mold? Now there's a thought ;-)

Eric

Hi John, it can be a very exciting and liberating time, but also discouraging during the chasm when old belefs fall away and new comforts have yet to emerge. This is a good place to work through it. Welcome.

Eric

Heh! My favorite line from that episode:

 

PRIEST: Are you offended as a Jew?

 

JERRY: No, I'm offended as a comedian!

 

NORM

Yes I LOL'd at that part too! And the part where Jerry mentions the joke about Raquel Welch and the Priest perks all up and wants to hear it :-)

For nearly 20 years I had all the answers and knew exactly what my purpose in life was. Those were the days!

You guys are hitting on the head with the fundy vs. Catholic stuff, I was raised in New York as a Catholic, and then moved to FL and went to protestant church and have totally seen both sides in action. I love your last line here... says it all!

He recalls how the Rabbis in the community would call out to G-d to rescue them from their suffering. Many were convinced that the Shoah would bring about the much anticipated Moshia

 

Yemot HaMashiach

 

NORM

Great story Norm. I think you are right on target with your views regarding Judiasm's evolution from a "religion" to a "tradition and way of life." As an aside, I love that Seinfeld episode where the Dentist converts to Judiasm for the jokes! Check it out here if you haven't seen it:

When I was taking theology in college we often referred to Judiasm to bring more clarity to things, and it was very valuable. I love that you used the word Moshiac because it's interesting how many modern evangelicals dont even know what the word Yeshua means :-)

I look forward to hearing more about your insights on this topic.

Eric

This is an interesting thread because over the last year or so, I've struggled with the idea of a label. ....

Hi Kathy and Norm, you both make some excellent points. I have really enjoyed the quality of discussion on this forum! Personally, I think there are many of "us" out there who were raised and formed by Christian tradition, and we tuned out the bad stuff and focused on the good stuff, and it's simply baked into us and we still long for that community; but have "progressed" in our intellectual understandings which makes us unwelcome in most churches. I think what needs to happen to Christianity is what happened to Judiasm, where it got "watered down" (I can imagine an evangelical hating that I just said that). Eventually it IS going to end up being a mere tradition where people cherry pick the good stuff, use the buildings and ministries for good works, and fellowship for a good purpose ... and modern fundamentalism will be viewed akin to how we view Amish or something like that today. I think this generation is pushing things in that direction. For a title, I use "Evolved Christian" just for fun (and even have a blog called Christian Evolution to explore all of that), because I personally feel like I can best describe my path as having evolved over the years by keeping the good, shedding the bad, and continuing to look forward to strengthen and adapt. But for "real" titles that would be understood by other people, Progressive Christian is mostly full of Christian A-Theists (or those who are well on their way to being Christian (by tradition) A-theists (by understanding) so likely the best label out there right now.

Eric,

 

I'm not ready to write my own thesis on what I believe, mainly because I'm still searching and probably will never stop, but I will say that agree with pretty much everything you wrote. I also struggle with the question of "Am I Christian"? I get up on Sunday mornings and attend church at my local Presbyterian church along with my family. I think it's a good atmosphere for my children to be in. I love the fellowship of the community of my church and feel uplifted when I leave. So I continue to go. But I often feel like a bit of hypocrite as I'm sitting in church on Sunday morning because in my heart I really don't believe that Jesus is the one and only God, which is what our church doctrine says. I can't even say that I believe he was God. I think he was a very wise man and was inspired by God, like many of us are. So I follow his teachings. That said, I also agree with a lot wise and insightful things that many people have said through the years, both dead and alive, but I don't think they are God.

 

In this country people like to quote famous people and sayings. The way some people in the country talk they have practically elevated Thomas Jefferson and the other forefathers to level of deities and they act as if the constitution was written by the hand of God. (I'm sure people don't see themselves that way though, but if the forefathers said it, then that becomes undeniable fact and "truths" for them.) I often wonder is this similar in someway to what happened with Jesus? He was a really smart charismatic guy who said some very insightful things, people agreed with what he said and elevated him to the level of God in their minds. And those who wrote the scriptures for whatever reason, political or otherwise, decided to add mystical elements to convince others that he really was God. I also think that some of the insights in the gospels and other books of the NT were ideas of the authors who wrote them and attributed to them Jesus. They thought them up, but it sounded better if they attributed Jesus in order to make their insights sound more holy or "the word of God." Because you know, Paul says all kinds of things that Jesus never spoke of.

 

I still don't know what God is, other than I believe God is a love, and whatever God is in us and part of everything else on the planet...In the end Christianity is a religion created by man.

Amy, these are some excellent thoughts you've shared, I think they're spot on, and I can very much relate to going to church for various reasons but hoping that nobody ever asks me what I thought of the sermon! :-)

One can be called Christian who thinks Jesus was utterly flesh and a good teacher, same as Buddhist and some other labels. I think the meaning of "liberal" or "progressive" Christianity reasonably goes that far, unlike "Bible-believing" Christian or something else more specific.

 

"Christian atheist" would make sense to me, though I don't hear that from those who believe Jesus to be a good teacher. If there is no God and no Spirit, wouldn't a good teacher know that, ruling out Jesus?

 

The question for me is how much more than a good teacher is Jesus, a thoroughly mystical issue unfortunately. I call Jesus my Lord and my Savior, in part because I was raised that way, but in part because of how I experience that and what it might mean non-physically.

 

Much of the Bible is myth. Any serious scholar admits this. But what is the rest? Much is longing for the God-shaped void in our brain, the one evolution built from our desires for power, wisdom, goodness, love, and whatever else. Is there spirit(or spirits) that fills this well? Was that the source of Isaiah's experiences or were they just dreams? I don't know, but I reach to Jesus as well as God for whatever help I can get with that. That's the sort of liberal Christian I am. There are other ways that are reasonable for others.

David, thanks for the response, and sorry for the slow response in return. I like the way you think!

Eric,

 

You're opening post really resonates with me as well. As I read it, I felt as though I could have written something very similar. I share many of the same viewpoints. For instance, to me, God is love, Jesus was a special person (but not God), and the Bible reflects the views, not of God, but of the ancient Jews and the first Christians. Most Christians that I fellowship with (at a UMC church) would at least look askance at me if they knew my views on these three things. My views may not be "Christian" enough. And yet, who is to say what is Christian and what is not, especially with over 38,000 different Christian denominations?

 

I think that if we ultimately wear a label, then we get the right and responsibility to explain that label to others. I wear the label "Christian" because Christianity is my background religion and because I find Jesus and his teachings to be central to my spirituality, my relationship to God and others. But I certainly don't hold to everything found within the Christian religion. In fact, perhaps my favorite Bible verse is from Paul, "Test all things, hold to what is good." There are many good things in Christianity. But many of us realize that it is not all good, that some things need to progress and some things simply need to be let go off. How/when we do this is probably a very individual thing. Christianity is, to me, like a language. It is my native language for speaking about God and spiritual matters. But *I* get to choose the words I use and do the best I can make myself understood while trying to understand others.

 

So, as has been said, the person who has the most (perhaps only?) say over whether or not you are a Progressive Christian is YOU. If the label resonates with you and you find it helpful, wear it. As a wise person once said, "Be who you is. 'Cause if you is who you ain't, you ain't who you is."

Hi Bill, great to "meet" you and thanks for your thoughts on this thread (and sorry for the slow response, I didnt realize there were any new posts on this thread). I also was last most involved at a large UMC church and they were wanting me to preach and lead ministries etc and finally I talked to the pastor with the goal to have a discussion with him about Bible inerrancy and I quickly realized there was no interest by him in anyone who wasn't gong to march to the party line, so I had to leave. Pretty unfortunate because there were a lot of folks there who I really liked, and there was some good work I was able to do there with mission / outreach, and many don't even know why I left.... Nice to know theres others of like mind out there.

Eric,

 

I think you are heading in the same directions as many other faith seekers today. Let's face it, in this post-modern world the fundamentalist definition of the term Christian struggles to be relevant. Organized religion is progressing through some tough times. I agree with your 8-point theses above and that Jesus gave us prescriptions to deal with many of the internal challenges that you cite above. I am a big believer of all prayers go the same direction regardless of your faith approach to God, when the believer is sincere and is not in conflict with the "laws of God" that are readily apparent and not spelled out in a specific creed. I do not feel that we need creeds or dogma to know what is in keeping with God's laws as they are within every human. I am pretty sure that there are fundamentalist that will take issue with your progressive approach to Christianity and take offense with your alleged "hijacking" of their title , but you will most likely not run in to them here. Most of the literal beliefs you have distanced yourself from (literal interpretation of scripture, concrete belief in creation and flood accounts, etc.) are key tenets of fundamentalist belief. As progressives I see us on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. But I want to be careful to avoid the trap of judgment. In my journey, I do not want to pass judgment on others and become part of another "group" who thinks that they are on the right path and others are on the wrong path (that is the last thing this world needs). I think most sincere thinkers of all faith groups are doing their best to understand God and the relationship with humankind, titles will prove irrelevant in the endgame.

 

Thank you for sharing ,

Bob

Bob, thank you for your response on the topic. Nice to meet someone else of pretty like mind!

Eric

Good question Rhino. I think there are many levels to your question. One that was stated is whether its the best use of time? Is it good for so many college kids to sit in front of first person shooter games for hours on end instead of doing homework or charity work or something? Probably not, but is that a sin? Hmmmm. There are kids starving in Africa, so is it a sin to sit and play a video game for a couple hrs a day instead of rasie funds to save those lives? Hmmmm.

More simply, I played shooter games growing up, and car games where we crashed em up just for fun, but there's no part of me that seeks to do those things in reality; it was just a bit of fun that didnt seem to warp me in any way. Maybe it was even a good stress relief or opportunity to "zone out."

Maybe like anything, it depends on whether the game keys in on someones trending warped tendencies.

And also notable, I wouldnt want my own kids playing most of the games out there these days as I just think they're over the top with sex and violence and a total waste of time. So in my house there will be none of that because I hope to teach my kids that time is our most valuable asset and not to be squandered on games like that :-)

It's a great book. Although when I have suggested some of its materials to my evangelical friends they just shrug it off as someone trying to rationalize all the facts to make earthly makes sense, instead of taking it on faith...

I like what Robin Meyers says in his book, Saving Jesus From the Church: How to Stop Worshipping Christ and Start Following Jesus. .

Good points Migdalin. I'll have to check this book out.

Dear Bald White Gardener,

First of all, it sounds like you have 2/3rd's the traits of Bruce Willis, and he's totatally cool, so you should own that!! In fact, he may even garden for all we know and then you're 3/3 :-)

Also, sorry to hear about your sick parents, bad health, lousy marriage, over-education, and professional failings. I bet you grow a mean tomato though??? Or are you more one of those prize rosebush kind of guys?

As for being lost, we are alllll lost my friend. Anyone who say's their not is just kidding themself. So stick around and we can all be over-educated and lost together.

Eric

Eric,

 

As one can see from the 8 points and your statements, you seem to be progressive in your Christian understanding and fit in quite well under the PC label. However, We here of course accept you as an individual whatever label you prefer to associate yourself with. Perhaps as you and some have mentioned in the past, the name here could be changed to more effectively reflect their perception of what this site represents. History here shows that the label as perceived by others is not important enough to change.

 

Most here have come from a Christian background and their understanding of Jesus and his teaching have progressed to something that although it doesn't line up with fundamental interpretations, has as much right as any to retain the Christian label. After all, Christian merely means Christ-like or follower of the teachings of Jesus, To me, Christ (anointed) represents the smearing together of the individual with God so that there is only One. And it was Jesus's prayer in the Gospel of John that we might all be One even as he and the Father were One. Most all the dogma and doctrine of fundamental Christianity is, i believe (imo), just filler added in ignorance by men for their own reasons.

 

Joseph

Thanks Joseph. I'm with you actually, as I am not really looking for a label or concerned about the PC label being a good fit or not, I just find it fun to explore titles and challenge paradigms. As you say, the title of PC is probably the best road-sign out there right now to let people know progressive thought exists. There's certainly a great group of folks on this board with widely varying opinions, but common pasts.

The thing I enjoyed most about attending a Christian Church or Jewish Synagogue was the camaraderie of tackling difficult human tragedy and struggle collectively. It is where I felt most profoundly a part of the Community.

 

NORM, thanks! To the comment of yours I quoted above, I really hope that aspect of Christianity survives the intellectual enlightenment intact.

Hi JCS Banks. I don't think belief in God matters at the macro level, because "belief" and "God" are such loaded words to begin with. I personally think that it's healthy to have a humility that some "force" could exist, and possibly even have a purpose in all this chaos.

Eric

getting a degree in Theology, as it gave time and focus to sorting out all the cognitive dissonance between the brand of God / Bible / Chrisianity I was rasied to believe and the brand of God / Bible / Chrisianity I begain to belive was more likely. Many people live many years of quiet desperation trying to harmonize these types of things and I feel the degree helped fast track that.

Shalom.

Hi Folks, I was curious what insights you all might have on this. Assuming most of you are up to speed on the overall topic I will cut right to the chase and not worry about citing verses and context. In the OT there are a number of areas of "God's Law" that tell the Israelites to stone / kill rebellious children, or in the case of Elisha's curse God just sends bears to tear the kids apart. Some scholars make caveats that these particular laws are focused toward particular people in a particular time, and not applicable to gentiles today, yada yada. Or others simply posit that the death and resurrection of Jesus means we follow the NT now and ignore all that old brutal stuff. But my more general question is how Bible literalists can rationalize this? Jesus clearly says he does not intend to change the law, and in fact means for every letter to be upheld. The simply question is, if God told anyone that stoning rebellious children was good at one time, why would "he" think any differently now? Of course I say that it all was written by man anyway, so "God" plays no part, but how can literalists harmonize this with the fact that they dont stone their children today? Why would God change his preferred method of discipline from stoning to time-outs?

Disclaimer: I don't in any way condone stoning rebellious children ;-)

Ok thanks soma, when I hear Ken Wilber start using those concepts I often zone out because I have a hard time applying them :-)