JenellYB

Have a great time!

Jenell

jeanied, I'm so glad we have come together in this so as to both perhaps cause you to think about some things you may not have before, yet also not be a negative experience for you.

I feel very strongly, as now a 63 yr old mother and grandmother with a lot of experiences good and bad behind me, that there is NO ONE better to introduce and teach your child the important and often sensitive things they need to know for life. Whether matters of faith and religion, sex, ethics and moral behaviors...no one CARES about the impact it may have on your child than YOU. I have seen and heard of some of the most unbeleivably thoughtless, careless, outright cruel things some people can subject others to, even little children, for whatever dysfunction they have going on inside themselves....our children really only have us to use discretion in trying to protect them from that.

I think many times it IS out of thoughtlessness, carelessness, just not thinking things through, often in trying to put their own point, their own opinion, across to another in perhaps an inappropriate way. but the damage is still done. It can happen to not only children, but of course, children are more tender, and have fewer resources of maturity and expereince to gelp them sort things like that out. And sadly, there are still those within religion that belief the way to 'convince' and 'convert' others is to scare them into heaven with horrors about the 'alternative'. I differ, I think we must be drawn toward God by His love, not have hell scared out of us by fear of His terrible wrath.

Jenell

Jeanied, please, I apologize as I realize all my examples have been warnings to take care in introducing your child to anything from the bible. I hope to correct that imbalance somewhat....certainly if the awful experiences I related from my childhood were all I had, i'd never have stayed near the faith as I have.

I have memories of some things that had profound impact upon me as a very young child, were important in positive ways. For me, early lessions about Jesus' love for me, for each of us, that was oth beyond earthly love and an enduring love that was not dependent upon my 'earning' it....that was important to me for many reasons, but oddly enough, is also what helped me reject the other "God images" and negative messages I mentioned above, that seemed to justify cruelty, rejection, and slaughter of people for "being bad." For as ANY child, we KNOW, is going to be human and make mistakes, we ARE going to "be bad" sometimes...having a sense that whomever else rejected me in the bad times, I still had a friend, one that was going to be there for me, sorrow for me, stand by me, even carry me at times...NOT throw me away or condemn me to hell. Thankfully, that was MY Jesus, that stood against that "different Jesus" some in the church tried to throw at me later, that demanded perfection, conformance to a reigious/social standard, or, lets be honest, demanded I meet approval of others that set themselves as judges. It was that jesus that "saved" me from the terror of being put out to drown in the waters around the ark, that even if I made mistakes, wasn't going to condemn me to something like that as punishment.

I also was influenced by teachings of compassion, honesty, idealism in standing up for what I believe is right. As Dutch observed, there are often many different valuable teachings to be drawn from even single stories...such as 'the good Samarition'...many stop with 'who are your real friends?", but there is also 'how to be a friend, even to a stranger, without need for a reciprocal relationship, as well as how easily we can fall into being callous, selfish, too caught up in doing our own thing, conforming to social standards, etc, as did those that passed the injured man by without helping.

I hope you find among all here some that will help you teach your child. And I beleive there is no one better or more trustworthy to do this than YOU, you are not incometent, you are being conciencious...the last thing I'd suggest you do is decide you can't do this, and just turn your child's introduction to faith over to people teaching SS classes, for you know niether their qualiifications or their concern for your child's best interest. You are not incapable, you ARE the most capable one for this task.

Jenell

Dutch wrote: Another is that God acted out of anger and said he was sorry.

Dutch, sorry to insert a bit of cynical dark humor here, but in my 1st marriage, very young, I think that must have been the one they taught my frequently very abusive, very violent husband when he'd gone to Sunday School! Lol! That in the aftermath of an incident, saying that he had acted out of anger, and was sorry, was supposed to make it all ok.

Jenell

Jeanied, I add, I think adults often don't realize, or forget, how observant even very young children can be....as example, my mention of aversion to those prettified picture books of bible stories...I am 63 years old, and even still can bring up mental images of the illuustrations of the flood in one of those kind of books that I was shown when I was maybe 6 or 7 years old....and in brining up those mental images, the feelings of horror still rise up as i remember them...the streaks of rain, and the swirling waters, in shades of grays and blues and greens, as they rose up around the ark, and all those people! So many people! More than I could count, thick crowds of them in the waters, as far back into the scene as one could see, with arms upstretched, clearly begging, pleading....they were all just drawn in like dark shadowy forms, of course, so you could see no faces, to see their terror, but still, clearly people, and even so young, I knew they were all drowning, dying. I'll never get those images out of my mind. They still haunt me. I'd not want to risk doing that to another child.

Jenell

Jeanied, there's no reason for you to feel that way at all. And we're sure not judging you...I, and i think others here, respect that you are seeking suggestions in how to proceed. Many even long term Christians don't think about this when they expose their children to such mature adult material as in the bible. As I noted, I remember it being done to me and other children, it bothered me enough to avoid that with my own children, but others don't see it the same way, feel its ok. Some would be offended that WE see it this way. I think now that its been pointed out to you, you see the problem, and yes, I think your idea of presenting stories about Jesus that you can translate into application in your children's lives, that they are ready to understand, would be the ideal approach.

Jenell

The bible is not for young children, period. There are simply too many things far beyond a child's mind to understand, as often mentioned, the cruelty, violence, sexual immorality, generall mature adult themes that even many adults struggle wiith. so as to what bible to give a toddler, I shrink i horror at the thought...none!!

I remember as a child I only wanted to read and hear 'the red words' as i called them, as the bibles commonly used had the words of Jesus printed in red. The black words, I because very aversive toward them, there seemed to so much anger and punishment and violence in them. In looking back, I've realized I was one of the "lucky" children, I did reject that, see the horror in OT massacres, or the mass destruction of human lives as in The Revelation, without any demonstration of compassion or sorrow for it, things like that....I remember some kids would, following services where the preacher had preached from some event in which the Israelites were victorious in slaughtering some other group of people, some city, every man, woman,, CHILD, INFANT, and even animal, would run and play outside, "cowboys and Indians" style, and of course arguing about who got to be the Israelites and who had to be the ones being slaughtered...even as a young child that horrified me. I remember that, and would never suggest exposing young children to that kind of thinking.

That said, approach the matter as you are the teacher, and in that role it is your task to bring from the bible things you child can understand, is ready to comprehend, as age and developmentally appropriate. As mentioned elswhere here, yes, I'd say focus on Jesus, so that is their earilest memories...and the foundation for anything later. Everything else in the bible must be interpreted and translated through Jesus and the principles He taught.

In choosing even from among Jesus's parables and sayings, keep in mind your child's age and development. Stories about adultresses aren't going to be understandable and meaningful to a young child. I'm presupposing you really don't want to get into what "adultery" or "fornication" means with your toddler! But there are plenty of those you can present in a context relevant to your child, that relate virtues of kindness, loyalty, humility, patience, fairness, honesty, and the like, in ways easily made meaningful to your child's perspective and real life experience.

I also do not like those "bible stories" that try to present a "prettified" story about trully tragic and horrific events, such as Noah and the flood...there's no way around a lot of people still died horrifically, even if it was "because they were bad." To a little child, often told he/she is "being bad" that can bring on some trauma if they think they are ever in danger of being killed by God for what to them is "being bad." Even such stories as Cain killing Able, a young child simply cannot comprehend the kinds of human emotions and reality involved in such a thing. I think these practices tend to both frighten, perhaps even worse, harden children emotionally, teach some very perverted values.

Jenell

My thoughts exactly,Yvonne,lol!

Jenell

Yvonne, WS....yeah.

Jenell

I'm sorry, WS. That is a really tough place to be, for you as well as them and others in your family. I can relate, my Dad, too, was very ill and incapacitated for several years beofre his passing, while at the same time my mother was already clearly exhibiting signs of dementia that we soon recognized as Alzheimers. It was a difficult time, but also a time of signficant learning and growth for myself and some others affected. I pray the best for you and yours in this.

Jenell

Exactly.

Jenell

1:30 am...indulged in iced tea this evening...paying for it now, caffiene high..gave in and uncorked a bottle of wine given to me for my birthday, had planned to save it for a nice meal...oh well, 1st glass nearly gone, another oughtta do it....walked out a bit ago, moonlight so bright, first freezes of the year, the air still and clear and cold...sounds carry in the crisp stillness...a pack of coyotes just cut loose with several mintues of their shrill, curiously discordant and cacophanic song not far away, mating season has begun...their presence means the wolves have drifted into neighboring territory for now, probably the river bottom where deer are more plentiful...they'll be back by late February, when the neighbors cows start dropping calves....its still and quiet again, and the wine lulls, the dogs are bedded down around me in the living room, the sounds of their breathing hypnotic....tonight, walking in the crisp chill, stepping silently through the remnants of my drought ravaged garden, bursting now with a tumble of soft winter greens from recent rains, lit only by the bright moonlight, the words and refrain come unbidden to my mind...silent night, all is calm, all is bright....a pregnant stillness, as if all creation lies in wait for...something...something new.... why does this feel like Christmass Eve night? From year to year, I never know, it seems nothing I do ever makes it come sooner than it will of its own, and some years, it doesn't come until near the midnight hour of December 24th...in this moment my thoughts turn....maybe tommorrow, I will go up into the attic, bring down some strings of light for the front fence, the wreath for the front gate, perhaps the single star for above the front porch...

...to all, a good night....

Jenell

Norm wrote: "You will enjoy the parables most, I think. They are often humorous! Imagine - a theology tome with a schtick."

Dr. Mitchell, head of the Religious Studies dept where I attended, demonstrated often that fully understanding many of the parables Jesus is said to have spoken is enhanced by knowing Jewish parables in common use at the time, because many of Jesus's parables based upon Jewish parables the people were already familiar with, but in which he modified them slightly to give them a "different twist" to make His points.

Jenell

Btw, mister, glad you found and decided to join us for a while. I hope you learn from and enjoy your encounters here. I'm looking forward to your participation and contributions.

Jenell

My knee jerk reaction was because I once had to present the Rainbow Bible to middle schoolers (it was what the committee had decided on).

Ughhh... yeah. My two major problems with such as the rainbow bible is 1, topical themed bibles in general, whomever did the selecting for passages relevant to topics may or may not be identifying and interpreting what is the actual topic intended in any particular passage, just as with parphrased versions, the reader is entirely dependent upon the author of the paraphrasing to have first correctly and accurately interpreted intended meaning from that text, and 2. it teaches, especially beginners that usually use them, from the get-go, that 'art' of snipping out of context a bit of text from here and stringing it together with another from there ot make it seem to be saying something none of it says by itself in context. I've told a few people particularly fond of and skilled in that art that I can do the same thing, and do it even better, with a Webster's dictionary...I can snip a word from here and there and string them together to 'say' whatever I want them to.

Jenell

:D

Jenell

WS, yeas! Thanks, that's it! Mister, highly reccomend you check these out, i think you'll really enjoy and learn from them.

Jenell

Btw, two of the absolutel worst bibles imnouo, are "The amplified Bible" and "The Living Bible", noth parphrases rather than translations, and really bad paraphrasing at that. The language of the Living Bible strikes my ear and mind as the voice of some self-righteous, mean-spirited judgemental marginally literate fundamentalist old back woods coot preacher from distant childhood memories. Unpleasant ones.

Jenell

Two other resources I rely on when doing deeper bible study are the Strong's Hebrew/Greek Concordiance and Dictionary, which (my copy, anyway) does need to be used along with a KJV. That is much more valuable and useful to me now that I've taken at least freshman level biblical/Koine Greek, but was for some years already a valuable tool before i had that.

I still often do preliminary reading and meditative reading from KJV, mainly because it is of course the bible i was raised with and it just feels comfortable and familiar, and I love the language. Also, often i find myself thinking of a particular passage of text, unable to recall book, chapter and verse, and unable to locate it in another version, don't "recognize" it in different wordings, so I turn to KJV and either through glancing through, or using that Strong's Concordiance and some remembered words, to locate it. then study it in both KJV form and other versions side by side for comparison.

Glint, I am meaning here more along the line of histotrical, cultural, linguistic details that help better understand context, rather than commentaries, which are generally intepretative...on that I DO agree with you strongly. I have a very old copy of the old Scofield bible, once considered the ultimate on evangelicals wish lists...mine was passed down to me through my family...and it APPALLING! Fundamentalist to the extreme. I keep it for family history value, as well as just plain bad example of how bad bible commentaries can be!

Jenell

misterkatimari, if you love the history, there's a set of religious studies courses on the bible and development of western culture, one for OT one for NT, available online free from a major university..I rook those same courses as part of my RS minor and they are great, learned a lot!

Now if somebody else here can help fill in the blank here, which university that offers those, I'm having an oldtimer''s moment....

Jenell

WS, the Discipleship Study bible sounds interesting....is yours the NSRV version? What is your perspective on the interpretive tradition most evident in the interpretation and application of Jesus's teachings to our lives? And how on target do they seem to be with common sense and real life? I mean, Evangelistic, mainstream, Catholic, liberal, or reasonably ecumenical/non-sectarian?

Jenell

My primary study bible since I was introduced to it in connection my taking Religious Studies courses is "The New Oxford Annotated Bible," NRSV version w/ Apocrypha, College Edition. It is also noted on the cover as "an Ecumenical Study Bible."

I like the NRSV translation at lot, but also there is so much addtional material in this edition, factual info drawn from historical, archaelogical, linguisitics and cultural sources, that i find useful, and that is presented very factually, rather than interpretively from some particular theological school or denominational slant.

For me, this is my "study bible of a lifetime." I haven't seen any even close to it, that I like anywhere near as well.

Yvonne,lol! Yeah, you are free and encouraged to believe any way you want, as long as it is consistent with mine and what I find acceptable. Somehow, I think they are missing the point.

Jenell

Wow. Apart from really minor differences in childhood family history, and that I never really found or developed any viable or meaningful relationships with a church community, your journey sounds so similar to my own its uncanny.

I have sometimes found myself wondering, hearing others whose stories would also so closely align with yours and mine....What are we? WHO are we? I mean those of us that share such a similar pattern, of having totally fallen in love with Jesus as very young children, an idealistic love, yes, and yet an enduring, persisting love, that actually led to our questioning and ultimately rejecting the very religion in which context we were introduced to Him, carried us through our disenchantment with that religion, yet still to come out onthe other side with that total, enduring,and yes still idealisitc, love still there, perhaps even strong than before. Those of us that may even say, and truly feel, I ALWAYS knew Him, I ALWAYS loved him, it seems, even before I knew the Earthly details of who He was...That KNEW His voice the first time we heard it....and resisted all efforts to teach us a "different Jesus", one that was judgemental and demanding perfection and willing to send us to hell....this has made me feel so "different" at times in my life I've wondered if I really weren't born to my supposed parents at all, but found in a cabbage patch somewhere, where I'd been dropped by a passing alien space-craft!

Jenell