GeorgeW

Eusebius, Welcome. I am also interested in early Christianity.

George

I'm still waiting for my copy

Just let us know when you get it and we'll start the clock (two weeks for the first part).

George

Padre, That is a nice historical summary. Thanks for taking the time and effort

George

I think the word "cult" has some negative connotations to most people as a result of some super extreme religious organizations such as Jim Jones group, Heavens gate , the Branch Davidians, etc. . It has a number of different definitions in the dictionary that i believe could be applied to call most any Christian denomination or other religion a cult.. It is a most relative term with as i said negative connotations from historical events and i would personally choose to not use it to label another's religion including Mormons even though there are Mormons who admit they are a cult but by the same definitions they use that most other groups also fit.

Joseph, I agree that it has negative connotations and that is why I used it in "quotes." I was sarcastically referring to some of the Fundy pastors (I don't recall names) who have described it as a "cult."

George

To the best of my knowledge, Mitt Romney has not made the same sort of statements about his own religious faith and what role the Mormon church will play in his presidency and Mitt Romney seems to think his own beliefs about the separation of church and state are somehow above any sort of criticism.

Yes, he has said very little for very pragmatic reasons. He doesn't want to remind his base that he is a member of a "cult."

I am personally more concerned about his fealty to the Wall Street Synod or the Church of Latter Day Traders.

George

I cringed when I couldn't resolve that "God had a plan for me" when I was also taught that he had given me free agency.

Monteluna,

Thanks for your worthwhile thoughts and welcome to the forum. Yeah, I have never quite understood that as well. I first thought it meant a spiritual plan, but I have heard it invoked about more mundane matters such as school, career, relationships, etc. Discovering that plan is another matter altogether. I guess when a plan (attributed to God) doesn't work out, one would claim they weren't listening close enough, resisted the advice or whatever.

On the other hand, it may motivate a useful process of introspection and carefully trying to determine the best course of action when confronted with a decision. Maybe, it causes us to focus on what is most suitable for us and weed out other influences.

BTW, we normally ask new members to do a brief introduction of themselves in the thread title "Introduce Yourself." This gives others some idea about where the new member has been and where they are.

George

My concern about the Mormon church is that they were heavily involved in Prop 8 and getting gay marriage banned in California and

That concerns me as well, but on grounds of his position on the issue, not the act of donating money to his church. There are other churches that oppose gay marriage as well. No one, that I recall, criticised Kennedy or Kerry for donating money to the Catholic Church, or Al Gore for donating money to the Baptist Church. (Since they were members, I assume they donated money to their churches)

George

Paul,

A book about early Christianity that is very good is The Rise of Christianity by Rodney Stark. It is more historical than theological or biblical. Stark is a sociologist who specializes in religion. He explores early Christianity from a sociological point of view. Several years ago, I gave a copy to my pastor (PCUSA) and he said it was the best book he ever read about early Christianity (mine as well, but he had read much more than me).

George

Padre, Welcome. I hope you will join the discussions.

George

In my mind though, if you go out of your way to provoke people, part of the responsibility for their reaction lies with you. The person(s) who made the video on question, for example, could not have expected a different kind of reaction - it's no secret what type of reaction(s) radical, extremist Muslims have to what they perceive as insults to their faith. From where I'm standing, the intent of the person making the video is pretty clear, and so some responsibility is theirs.

As I understand it, the guy who made the film, is an Egyptian-American Copt. He clearly would know what kind of reaction the film would provoke. What is additionally disturbing, is that this could well put Coptic Egyptians in greater danger.

George

So one of the driving doctrines of modern Christianity has only been around for about half the life of Christianity? Anybody here know more about that? I had not heard that before.

Stanley,

Didn't the atonement theory originate with Paul?

George

George. However, I do my best to be a good steward by sharing my blessings with those who are in need.

I absolutely did not intend to imply that this would be, in any way, questionable - that is exactly what we who are blessed with comfortable lives should do. My point was simply about generalizing Hell in this life with such varying life experiences.

George

I quite agree with your sentiments about life not being bad. However, for many life is a nightmare.

Given we have such different experiences in this life, it seems to me that would be hard to generalize about the meaning of Hell in this life. Some really do experience awful lives where others (like me) have been very blessed.

George

Unassailable, eh? I doubt it. Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.

 

I jest, naturally. Nonetheless, I'm inclined to at least question this. Kinda wish I'd read it in full, but based on that very short description, I'd like to ask if Pinker argues that humans themselves have evolved to be less violent, or that human culture has become more subdued? Because those are very different ideas indeed. The necessary natural selection to remove those with violent tendencies from the gene pool seems... unlikely.

Yeah, I am going to stick with unassailable and I don't think is is hyperbole. The evidence he has gathered is overwhelming. I cannot imagine a reasonable counter argument.

As I recall (it has been several months and a number of books under the bridge), his argument is cultural change, not genetic.

However, genetic evolution is ongoing. I read another book recently by a paleoanthropologist who pointed out that genetic change in humans is happening faster than many think. So, there could be a genetic factor as well. As we live in larger, more complex societies, perhaps natural selection weeds out some of the sociopaths who don't pass on as many genes.

George

Steven Pinker in The Better Angels of Our Nature makes an unassailable case that humans have become less and less violent throughout human history. And, it has been an evolutionary process, not sudden change. We are now living in the most peaceful, secure time in human history - But we still have room for improvement.

George

Dutch,

Are you suggesting that we cannot go from word-of-mouth communication to iPhones in one single jump?

George

I have no problem with Romney giving money to his church unless the church is doing something unseemly or malevolent with it. And, I have no reason to think that is the case.

I do have a problem with a multi-millionaire paying tax rates lower than many middle-class citizens and then supporting policies that would lower his rate even more.

George

I chose the title The Righteous Mind to convey the sense that human nature is not just intrinsically moral, it’s also intrinisically moralistic, critical, and judgmental.

Yes, I think "moralistic" and "judgemental" are more descriptive than "moral." We make moral judgements which means that we are influenced in our decisions with intuitive considerations of right and wrong in addition to, or instead of, purely logical or pragmatic reasons.

George

People love to talk about pedophilia when they talk about homosexuality. It always makes me sad.

 

Are some gay men pedophiles? Of course - as are some straight men. Being gay does not make one a pedophile any more than being straight does.

Following the Sandusky incident (the football coach at the Penn State convicted of sexually abusing boys), I asked someone who had done a lot of mental-health counseling about what motivates a pedophile to prefer boys or girls. He said he was not an expert in this, but to his knowledge pedophilia is independent of sexual orientation and homosexual men (who are pedophiles) are attracted to boys and heterosexual men (who are pedophiles) are attracted to girls.

George

I'd love to hear the board members views of what hell is and perhaps even an explanation of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

According to the fellows of the Jesus Seminar (in the The Five Gospels), "The speeches of Jesus in this narrative are all the creative work of the evangelist [John]." They do not think that any portion of this passage is authentic to Jesus.

So, what was John trying to convey? The Five Gospels says, ". . . the raising of Lazarus from the dead is the decisive action prompting the arrest of Jesus. This contrasts with the synoptic gospels where the catalytic action is the temple incident." They say that John moved the temple incident to the beginning of Jesus' ministry to make room for the Lazarus story.

Okay, did John believe in a literal Hell? I think so. Did Jesus? Probaby.

George

Annie,

I cannot help with the background of the 'progressive' term. However, I don't get any connotation of arrogance in the word. To me, 'progressive' contrasts with 'traditional' and suggests willingness to change.

An alternative might be 'liberal' but that, at least in the U.S., has become maligned politically such that almost all politicians on the left run from it. When applied to religion, it might also carry some of the same baggage.

Responding to the title of the thread. I do think that names are useful. Although a name cannot say everything, it does give a sense of what the organization or movement is about.

George

Paul and Dutch,

Will you let us know when you get your books? We will start the discussions two weeks later.

George

I offer the law regarding threats to kill the president. I believe that is an example of a hate speech law that is fairly and justly administered. I assume that the courts are part of figuring out how to apply the law.

Actually, I think it is illegal to threaten the life of anyone. But, I guess, threatening groups gets hazier and veiled threats hazier yet.

Many laws are difficult to administer. Juries have to carefully sort out the facts and intentions in murder cases then decide guilt or innocence, first degree, second or manslaughter. But, even with these difficulties, no one, to my knowledge, advocates revoking laws that prohibit murder.

George

Dutch and Paul,

Sounds good, let's proceed with three. I hope others will join in with comments or questions (or also get the book) as we go along.

The books has three parts, with about 4 chapters per part. How about one part every two weeks? Too much, too little?

George

While religion is not inherently evil like Dawkins and .co would suggest, I think what people believe about reality does influence how they behave in life. I don't think it's a coindence that the vast majority of the people who deny the real age of the Earth or the existence of evolution also tend to be the same people who also want to ban abortion even in cases of incest and rape and it's not a coincidence that people with higher levels of education also tend to believe strongly in liberal social justice values.

I think that education and social milieu are much, much more influential in determining our worldview than theology. And, it is one's worldview that determines one's theology, not the reverse.

George